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Haledjian posted:Bellwether wasn't super memorable, but I wonder if a stronger villain might have hurt the messaging. The more the movie blames foxism on a shadowy cabal rather than historical/institutional prejudice, the less relevant it becomes as a parable. Maybe that's still a needle that could have been threaded, though. I'm going to reverse my stance on Disney villains and say no, I think they did the right thing here. The best thing about Zootopia is it's willingness to grapple with systemic problems rather than point to a specific / personal source of evil, even if it only dips its toes in.
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Jan 26, 2017 20:14
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Can Gazelle be the villain of Zootopia 2? Just, like, reveal that she actually had her own secret agenda all along. And give her a villain song. 
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Jan 26, 2017 20:23
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mycot posted:Normally when people speculate conservative themes in Japanese works it's less about pro/anti-war and more about the implication that the War was a horrible thing because the Allies ruined everything at no provocation. I'm just mentioning this based on other discussions and the quote you brought up, I haven't seen the Wind Rises still. That would still ignore the scene where Jiro's co-workers laugh in his face when he calls Japan a modern state or the fact that one of the most sympathetic characters is in hiding because he's Jewish and knows the Japanese government would sell him out to the Nazis. The Wind Rises has no love for a national mythos that shows Japan as victim of Western meddling, but it does have plenty of sympathy for the people suffering due to the madness of their leaders.
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Jan 26, 2017 20:24
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Gazelle is a villain. She behaves in exactly the same way as all the villains of Zootopia - outward platitudes of equality, really just advancing social Darwinism.
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Jan 26, 2017 20:27
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For as annoyed with Disney villains as I've been lately, there really wasn't any other way Zootopia could've gone IMO. A whodunit generally has to have a villain that doesn't properly introduce themselves until the final moment. I mean, the setting could totally fit a more traditional blatant villain causing problems instead of merely playing up systemic prejudices and letting those do all the work for them (eg: more of a Ratigan, I guess? I haven't watched Great Mouse Detective in a while), but the particular story that actually wound up in the film wouldn't have worked nearly as well if they'd gone that route. I do kinda hope they get the chance to go that route later, though. Story wouldn't be as unique, obviously, but it'd still be a lot of fun.
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Jan 26, 2017 20:30
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Her using tigers as stage props is pretty problematic tbqh
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Jan 26, 2017 20:30
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Bellweather is a vessel for the real villain of social inequality and that's the way to go imho.
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Jan 26, 2017 20:35
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Haledjian posted:Her using tigers as stage props is pretty problematic tbqh Not really. That's just the Iggy Azalea meme, that she's appropriating predator culture, that she doesn't understand its authentic roots, etc. In reality, all of those dancers are paid very well, their families are very happy for them, they are privately parleying their own newfound privileges onto either their own 'personal endeavors' or 'giving back to the community,' whatever. There is functionally no difference between what Iggy Azalea does and what Shakira and Rihanna do. The problem is not the superficial content of Gazelle's pop music. The problem is the hegemony of capitalism. Samuel Clemens posted:That would still ignore the scene where Jiro's co-workers laugh in his face when he calls Japan a modern state or the fact that one of the most sympathetic characters is in hiding because he's Jewish and knows the Japanese government would sell him out to the Nazis. The Wind Rises has no love for a national mythos that shows Japan as victim of Western meddling, but it does have plenty of sympathy for the people suffering due to the madness of their leaders. Right. The film is merely honest about how Jiro's very personification before us has become just as 'protected' in a mythological sense as his literal job was in a political sense. It's very melancholy (like most of Miyazaki's films) about this premise that it is only as a ghost that humans can work 'for all mankind.'
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Jan 26, 2017 20:38
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K. Waste posted:Not really. That's just the Iggy Azalea meme, that she's appropriating predator culture, that she doesn't understand its authentic roots, etc. In reality, all of those dancers are paid very well, their families are very happy for them, they are privately parleying their own newfound privileges onto either their own 'personal endeavors' or 'giving back to the community,' whatever. There is functionally no difference between what Iggy Azalea does and what Shakira and Rihanna do. I'm just teeing them up here, aren't I.
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Jan 26, 2017 20:41
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The real villain of Zootopia is fursecution 
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Jan 26, 2017 20:44
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wuffles posted:I want Piper to win the short and Zootopia for best animated feature. Full disclosure though; I haven't yet seen My Life as a Zucchini or The Red Turtle. the criteria for the academy voters for these movies is "did my kid see this", so there's really nothing to worry about with zootopia winning
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Jan 26, 2017 21:19
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Kids also saw Moana, so I guess there's that to worry about? Does mean Kubo is most likely out in the cold, though, let alone Zucchini or Red Turtle.
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Jan 26, 2017 21:35
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Just watched Pom Poko. It's one of the better environmentalism themed films I've seen. Humans are portrayed as an effectively unstoppable force of "anti-nature" in their development but not with any particular malevolence beyond a normal spectrum of human behaviors and desires. Aside from the transformation elements there is a lot of "this is real poo poo" and you just have to deal with it and probably die regardless. If the raccoons were wiser to the ways of humans earlier on one wonders if they could have found a way to buy some of the land themselves, spoiling part of the point of the movie. I had the feeling that the foxes might have devised such a scheme but didn't care enough about the non-transforming foxes to care. They certainly were only making proposals to the raccoons for material benefit to themselves. PS: Go into the movie trying to think about raccoon testicles the same way most western audiences would think about cow udders. An expected part of the portrayal of the animal which is occasionally used for comic effect.
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Jan 26, 2017 21:35
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Pom Poko is great because it's an village of animals seeing the destruction that humans are causing to their habitat and start killing construction workers and none of the Tanukis really have a problem with that, just there are better solutions. Unrelated but https://youtu.be/GDzMxlw2Fgo
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Jan 26, 2017 22:48
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Haledjian posted:Bellwether wasn't super memorable, but I wonder if a stronger villain might have hurt the messaging. The more the movie blames foxism on a shadowy cabal rather than historical/institutional prejudice, the less relevant it becomes as a parable. Maybe that's still a needle that could have been threaded, though. No, I agree with you (and the others that have said as much) that Bellwether suits the Zootopia narrative far better than a real "villain" in the sense I'm describing. It's more just for the visual spectacle of the animation itself. Then the movie would have just about ticked every box for what's fun to see (ignoring story) and just watching for the craft of animation. I think they made the right call story-wise, but I can't help but wish for a world where you could have the guy primarily responsible for bringing the likes of 67' Shere Khan and Madame Medusa to life doing a villain in the Zootopia universe. Here's a fun little video about Milt that gives some insight on why I think it'd be fun to look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wwmBlH4YE Of course (as he himself admits) he's got Geraldine Page doing his track reads--often only a single take--that gave him some really juicy dialogue to work with. Her accents on words like "soft" were her own ad lib. Likewise, the only direction Milt got on those sequences was like "Medusa answers Snoops' phone call". wuffles fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 26, 2017 23:15
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Fangz posted:Right, but the point is that the grand arc of a lot of Japanese media can be read as 'it sucks to lose wars', especially when paired with pro-war media that supposes WWII is redone with some particular advantage for Japan that ensures they win this time round. This is a weirdly racist method of forcing an interpretation onto an individual film. "Sure this film itself doesn't carry that message but you know what the Japanese are like (wink wink)" (The post itself may not have been openly racist but I'm choosing to interpret it within the grand arc of internet forum posting.)
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Jan 27, 2017 06:25
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wuffles posted:'67 Shere Khan 
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Jan 27, 2017 07:01
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Jan 27, 2017 07:04
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I can't look at Tail Spin Shere Khan without thinking that he's basically a better groomed Donald Trump.
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Jan 27, 2017 07:07
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What's weird is he wasn't reaaaally a villain on Tailspin? Like, not the same way as Don Karnage.
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Jan 27, 2017 07:07
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GrandpaPants posted:I can't look at Tail Spin Shere Khan without thinking that he's basically a better groomed Donald Trump. He is considerably more intelligent, successful, and doesn't hold a grudge.
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Jan 27, 2017 07:08
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Lex Luthor (pre-power armor) of the Disneyverse
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Jan 27, 2017 07:09
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He's a pure profiteer and his only goal is money/power. He's similar to Xanatos in that way.
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Jan 27, 2017 07:12
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Pick posted:He's a pure profiteer and his only goal is money/power. He's similar to Xanatos in that way. I don't recall any humans on that show, but I bet you bed at least try to kill one of he ever saw one. A tiger can't get rid of his stripes and all that.
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Jan 27, 2017 08:05
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Detective No. 27 posted:I don't recall any humans on that show, but I bet you bed at least try to kill one of he ever saw one. A tiger can't get rid of his stripes and all that. He's killed them all.
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Jan 27, 2017 08:23
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Samuel Clemens posted:That would still ignore the scene where Jiro's co-workers laugh in his face when he calls Japan a modern state or the fact that one of the most sympathetic characters is in hiding because he's Jewish and knows the Japanese government would sell him out to the Nazis. The Wind Rises has no love for a national mythos that shows Japan as victim of Western meddling, but it does have plenty of sympathy for the people suffering due to the madness of their leaders.
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Jan 27, 2017 09:18
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This Korean movie (Underdog) looks good! Any word of a release date in the west?
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Jan 27, 2017 11:49
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Oh good my Beasts of Burden movie is happenimg
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Jan 27, 2017 11:54
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Pick posted:He's a pure profiteer and his only goal is money/power. He's similar to Xanatos in that way. Xanatos (and Gargoyles villains in general) was really great. I really miss that show.
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Jan 27, 2017 16:27
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Hedrigall posted:This Korean movie (Underdog) looks good! I don't see the speed of lightning or a roar of thunder in this image.
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Jan 27, 2017 17:47
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Hedrigall posted:This Korean movie (Underdog) looks good! Hmm, wonder if that pun exists in Korean.
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Jan 27, 2017 17:52
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I'm thinking not since the title is just 'Underdog' hangulized.
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Jan 27, 2017 18:01
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:This is a weirdly racist method of forcing an interpretation onto an individual film. "Sure this film itself doesn't carry that message but you know what the Japanese are like (wink wink)" it's not "weirdly" racist, like 90% of the American conception of Japan is "this may look like a normal country/antiwar movie/whatever, but actually the perfidious Jap is concealing that it's a fascist hive mind". that's the default narrative
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Jan 27, 2017 18:05
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icantfindaname posted:like 90% of the American narrative on Japan is "this may look like a normal country lol no not really
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Jan 27, 2017 18:07
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:lol no not really Well, OK, the fact they don't look white or european is an important trigger of the racism, yes
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Jan 27, 2017 18:08
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I'm neither white nor American so seriously, how are we turning this into a racism thing? Yeah okay, there's a good argument for watching a movie in isolation, but I was making the case that if you watch more anime and consume more Japanese media you fit the film into a larger cultural context that the core audience exists in. I specifically mentioned a different anime that bucks this trend, so reading this as a diatribe about perfidious japanese is just strange. It's in a similar way that you can perceive concepts like the magical negro archetype through seeing many US films and understand the trends in depicting African-Americans, when you can't really talk about it so much if you just look at a single film in isolation. FWIW I would level a similar criticism at many US antiwar films that fixate too much on a message of 'war is bad because it sucks to be a footsoldier'. Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 18:22
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Fangz posted:I'm neither white nor American so seriously, how are we turning this into a racism thing? Yeah okay, there's a good argument for watching a movie in isolation, but I was making the case that if you watch more anime and consume more Japanese media you fit the film into a larger cultural context that the core audience exists in. I specifically mentioned a different anime that bucks this trend, so reading this as a diatribe about perfidious japanese is just strange. the basic idea of the anti-war parable of the Brechtian and Miyazaki-an sort is that he who seeks war for profit or glory will be destroyed by it. this necessarily implies the guilt of the actor. a common racist stereotype of japanese and east asians is that they're incapable of feeling guilt because of face/shame culture or whatever, so therefore they can't by definition understand the point of the antiwar parable. so yeah, basically it's racism. not that there aren't people in japan who are poorly educated about the war or have bad opinions about it, but this particular narrative of "the antiwar message is actually proof the jap is unrepentant" is racist, or at least has very leery parallels with that particular strain of racist yellow peril orientalism stuff and anyways, all of miyazaki's movies with antiwar messages that I can think of (naussica and mononoke)(maybe not fireflies but that's not miyazaki) pretty clearly show this and not a one-sided "one day the USAF showed up and nuked us" thing icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 18:42
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Grogquock posted:Just watched Pom Poko. It's one of the better environmentalism themed films I've seen. Humans are portrayed as an effectively unstoppable force of "anti-nature" in their development but not with any particular malevolence beyond a normal spectrum of human behaviors and desires. Aside from the transformation elements there is a lot of "this is real poo poo" and you just have to deal with it and probably die regardless. If the raccoons were wiser to the ways of humans earlier on one wonders if they could have found a way to buy some of the land themselves, spoiling part of the point of the movie. I had the feeling that the foxes might have devised such a scheme but didn't care enough about the non-transforming foxes to care. They certainly were only making proposals to the raccoons for material benefit to themselves. They're not raccoons! Tanuki! Tanuki have giant balls in Japanese folklore.
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Jan 27, 2017 19:02
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Sinners Sandwich posted:Oh good my Beasts of Burden movie is happenimg I worked with Kirby Atkins for a couple of years when he was writing that movie and working as an animator. Good on him for actually getting it made, that's pretty dang cool. Only took 10+ years  I hope Rock Dog finds a decent audience in the US, ReelFX is kinda the only studio of its kind in the Dallas area these days AFAIK
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Jan 27, 2017 19:10
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ThermoPhysical posted:They're not raccoons! Tanuki! Tanuki have giant balls in Japanese folklore. This is actually a point worth making because tanuki are real actual animals that are native to the islands of Japan whereas raccoons are an introduced and harmful species.
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Jan 27, 2017 19:14
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