|
icantfindaname posted:the basic idea of the anti-war parable of the Brechtian and Miyazaki-an sort is that he who seeks war for profit or glory will be destroyed by it. The case that war is wrong is not that war is unprofitable. The acceptance that wars produce justice is itself problematic. quote:this necessarily implies the guilt of the actor. a common racist stereotype of japanese and east asians is that they're incapable of feeling guilt because of face/shame culture or whatever, so therefore they can't by definition understand the point of the antiwar parable. so yeah, basically it's racism. not that there aren't people in japan who are poorly educated about the war or have bad opinions about it, but this particular narrative of "the antiwar message is actually proof the jap is unrepentant" is racist, or has very leery parallels with that particular strain of racist stereotype of east asians Incidentally as you illustrate, the attitude I criticise is not limited to East Asians. The failure is a failure of empathy with the victims of your own side, a point equally exhibited by say, films like Pearl Harbour. People like Tezuka do a far better job. No, I am not saying that this anti war film proves Japanese are unrepentant or whatever ridiculous strawman. I am saying that it really complements rather than fights the pro war message. The pro-war message being 'we must be strong so that we don't lose again' and 'next time our wars will be for the right reasons'. Seeing as Miyazaki had to release alongside the film in Japan an essay clarifying the message of TWR, it would seem to me that's an issue he himself recognised. quote:and anyways, all of miyazaki's movies with antiwar messages that I can think of (naussica and mononoke)(maybe not fireflies but that's not miyazaki) pretty clearly show this and not a one-sided "one day the USAF showed up and nuked us" thing Miyazaki is ultimately very inconsistent on the anti war question. Yes, Naussica, yes also Laputa (key scene, our heroes sacrifice their entire heritage and apparently their lives to prevent it from being used as a weapon by the bad guy). But then you have Future Boy Conan where finding that the nation Industria is preparing a WMD, our heroes assault Industria, overthrow its government and use a boat to forcibly relocate the survivors. So um. I don't really recall any anti war message in Princess Mononoke. Isn't the point in the end that ultimately what the two sides want *was* irreconcilable? Eboshi needs to cut down the trees to get the iron so that her community survives, the forest doesn't like that. Eboshi wins in the end and all the magical forest creatures are killed.
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2017 20:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 07:17 |
|
|
Fangz posted:I do not agree that this is an anti-war message. In fact, this is a pro-war message. It means similarly that hey, if you went to war and you aren't destroyed by it, then that means your cause is just. It means that at the end of the day winning is what is important. Our hero shows the rightness of their cause by defeating the bad guy fair and square! Lol what on earth? That's not what Naussica or something like Mother Courage and her Children are saying at all, dude. The warmongers in those stories don't win. Mother Courage loses all her loving children, and Miyazaki's villains learn their lesson in a less brutal way. If they did win, yes, it would have a different message, but they don't. You don't get to just make up different outcomes for the sake of argument. quote:The case that war is wrong is not that war is unprofitable. The acceptance that wars produce justice is itself problematic. Wars in Brecht/Miyazaki-land don't produce justice. They produce bad stuff and the message is that they're bad. quote:Incidentally as you illustrate, the attitude I criticise is not limited to East Asians. The failure is a failure of empathy with the victims of your own side, a point equally exhibited by say, films like Pearl Harbour. People like Tezuka do a far better job. Yes, and the fact that this echoes the trope of the hivemind Asian unable to feel guilt is actually problematic, even if you don't intend it to be. quote:No, I am not saying that this anti war film proves Japanese are unrepentant or whatever ridiculous strawman. I am saying that it really complements rather than fights the pro war message. The pro-war message being 'we must be strong so that we don't lose again' and 'next time our wars will be for the right reasons'. Seeing as Miyazaki had to release alongside the film in Japan an essay clarifying the message of TWR, it would seem to me that's an issue he himself recognised. It doesn't say or imply that at all, actually. This is entirely you projecting this onto Japanese people. The fact that Miyazaki wrote an essay clarifying that no, that's not what it's saying or implying seems to me pretty clear?  quote:But then you have Future Boy Conan where finding that the nation Industria is preparing a WMD, our heroes assault Industria, overthrow its government and use a boat to forcibly relocate the survivors. So um. Dang, you got me there. Clearly this guy is a regressive right-wing fascist, who could agree with that message? quote:I don't really recall any anti war message in Princess Mononoke. Isn't the point in the end that ultimately what the two sides want *was* irreconcilable? Eboshi needs to cut down the trees to get the iron so that her community survives, the forest doesn't like that. Eboshi wins in the end and all the magical forest creatures are killed. The forest starts to regrow at the ed, and Eboshi and Irontown learns its lesson and reconciles with nature and the native peoples and puts its war-profiteering and environment-destroying ways behind it. You literally got the opposite message from that intended. I'm not really sure how you twist this into "actually Miyazaki's pro-war and lacks empathy for his nation's victims". Well except for the standard "you know how those people are" like Snowglobe said icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Jan 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2017 20:44
|
|
|
I think you are getting to the state of wilfully misunderstanding what I am saying.icantfindaname posted:Lol what on earth? That's not what Naussica or something like Mother Courage and her Children are saying at all, dude. The warmongers in those stories don't win. If they did, yes, it would have a different message, but they don't. You don't get to just make up different outcomes for the sake of argument. ??? This is literally what I am saying. The bad militarists lose, the good militarists win. The process is that you are conflating victory with good. Naussica succeeds at being anti-war not because the war destroys the warmongers - it destroys everything, Naussica's attempts to fight back is ultimately futile, it's by an act of self sacrifice that peace is restored. quote:Wars in Miyazaki-land don't produce justice. They produce bad stuff and the message is that they're bad. quote:Yes, and the fact that this echoes the trope of the hivemind Asian unable to feel guilt is actually problematic, even if you don't intend it to be. quote:It doesn't say or imply that at all, actually. This is entirely you projecting this onto Japanese people. The fact that Miyazaki wrote an essay clarifying that no, that's not what it's saying or implying seems to me pretty clear? I meant the parts of Japanese culture that is pro war. That is the message they have in their literature. The fact that Miyazaki had to write that essay illustrates that he understands his work to be problematic in the context of these other works and other people existing. quote:The forest starts to regrow at the ed, and Eboshi and Irontown learns its lesson and reconciles with nature and the native peoples and puts its war-profiteering and environment-destroying ways behind it. I'm not really sure how you twist this into "actually they're pro-war and lack empathy for their enemies". Well except for the standard "you know how those people are" like Snowglobe said I did not in fact say that Mononoke is pro war. I said it's not anti war. But it is a film where war is portrayed as necessary and ends because one side is killed off. (Not to mention the bad samurai faction who are entirely defeated.) quote:Dang, you got me there. Clearly this guy is a regressive right-wing fascist, who could agree with that message? Oh forget it. Fangz fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jan 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2017 20:59
|
|
|
Fangz posted:??? This is literally what I am saying. The bad militarists lose, the good militarists win. The process is that you are conflating victory with good. Naussica succeeds at being anti-war not because the war destroys the warmongers - it destroys everything, Naussica's attempts to fight back is ultimately futile, it's by an act of self sacrifice that peace is restored. A bad guy starts a war and loses at great cost to himself and others. This is a pro-war message. That's actually what you think. quote:I meant the parts of Japanese culture that is pro war. That is the message they have in their literature. The fact that Miyazaki had to write that essay illustrates that he understands his work to be problematic in the context of these other works and other people existing. That's not the message in the literature. It's not a pro-war message. You're doing tortured twisted pretzel logic to to fit your pre-held belief that the Japanese are insufficiently remorseful for WW2 icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jan 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2017 21:09
|
|
|
icantfindaname posted:A bad guy starts a war and loses at great cost to himself and others. This is a pro-war message. That's actually what you think. Platoon is an antiwar film because Elias dies. Catch 22 is an antiwar film because Milo Minderbinder makes a massive profit and totally gets away with it. Doctor Strangelove is an antiwar film because the guys in the bunker get to survive and gently caress women for the rest of their lives. Captain America, where Cap beats up the evil Nazi trying to take over the world, is not, IMHO, an antiwar film. Rambo III is not an antiwar film. quote:That's not the message in the literature. It's not a pro-war message, you're doing tortured twisted pretzel logic to to fit your pre-held belief that the Japanese are insufficiently remorseful for WW2 Do you literally not believe Japanese militarist exist. Fangz fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Jan 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2017 21:19
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Platoon is an antiwar film because Elias dies. Yes quote:Do you literally not believe Japanese militarist exist. What does them existing have to do with Miyazaki's works, (or the belief of the Japanese public at large for that matter) being antiwar or not? I'm saying your brain is broke and you're trying to twist one of the greatest antiwar filmmakers of all time into being a morally compromised fellow traveler of fascists, in a manner reminiscent of racists who think Japanese people are incapable of empathy or morality. We're not talking about the minority of revisionists and fascists in Japan, we're talking about the Japanese public at large and about Miyazaki in particular
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2017 21:31
|
|
|
It's not really a controversial or racist statement to say that one of the many narratives of WWII present in Japanese culture is the one that either casts it as a war of aggression against Japan or significantly downplays or omits the driving factors behind the war, and the fact that it was a war of aggression on Japan's part; or that this depiction of the war influences the way pacifism is approached in some pieces of Japanese media. It's even a significant part of contemporary Japanese politics, especially in regards to relations between Japan and other East Asian countries. These are known facts, and the same can be said for a lot of historical narratives present in other cultures and nations. It's really not a bold statement to make. To be clear, I'm mostly responding to this: Snowglobe of Doom posted:This is a weirdly racist method of forcing an interpretation onto an individual film. "Sure this film itself doesn't carry that message but you know what the Japanese are like (wink wink)" Like, I haven't seen the film so I'm not coming down one way or the other on that poster's reading of it but I'm saying that they're basing their interpretation on the cultural context in which the film was made (contemporary Japan) rather than basing it on racist ideas. Red Bones fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jan 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2017 21:40
|
|
|
Red Bones posted:It's not really a controversial or racist statement to say that one of the many narratives of WWII present in Japanese culture is the one that either casts it as a war of aggression against Japan or significantly downplays or omits the driving factors behind the war, and the fact that it was a war of aggression on Japan's part; or that this depiction of the war influences the way pacifism is approached in some pieces of Japanese media. It's even a significant part of contemporary Japanese politics, especially in regards to relations between Japan and other East Asian countries. These are known facts, and the same can be said for a lot of historical narratives present in other cultures and nations. It's really not a bold statement to make. Sure, but Miyazaki's movies don't actually do this. To say Princess Mononoke, a movie about the disastrous impact of warmongering on the environment and aboriginal peoples, fails to acknowledge the victims of warmongering, is actually insane The Japanese public is not as conscious of the war as it should be, this is true and is relevant. The racist stereotype of the Asian as a remorseless amoral hive mind also exists and is an important and relevant piece of cultural context icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Jan 27, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
Clarification: I do not think the movie is pro-war or anything. But I'm glad to see only one of you was a pedantic dickbag!
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2017 23:30
|
|
|
 So yeah howsabout that Rock Dog. Did you know that the animation studio contracted (Reel FX) also produced Free Birds and Book of Life?
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2017 23:36
|
|
|
Unmature posted:Clarification: I do not think the movie is pro-war or anything. But I'm glad to see only one of you was a pedantic dickbag! Sorry.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2017 23:39
|
|
|
The Ayshkerbundy posted:
It looks slight but it's a huge step up from the other non-big six animated features of recent years (for instance, it has competent art design) so I'll give it a few bucks
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 00:18
|
|
|
So I saw Secret Life of Pets. It was...okay. It felt like it had a lot of ideas that it pulled off at the bare minimum of competency. Like, it was just happy to check off the to-do list of being an animated movie.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 03:37
|
|
|
That's the business model of Illumination
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 03:58
|
|
|
Also gently caress off Illumination for that Illumination poo poo you pulled in the studio card.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 04:01
|
|
|
Ratchet and Clank sucks.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 05:46
|
|
|
Magic Hate Ball posted:Ratchet and Clank sucks. It really shouldn't, the game franchise manages to be fairly charming and even the licensed tie-in game is, but somehow the movie is just this bland dumb slog.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 06:25
|
|
|
I was watching it while babysitting my kid brother and he was amusingly subdued during it. Usually he's like a monkey when watching movies but he just kinda sat there, slack-jawed. It's like it numbed him.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 06:46
|
|
|
Magic Hate Ball posted:I was watching it while babysitting my kid brother and he was amusingly subdued during it. Usually he's like a monkey when watching movies but he just kinda sat there, slack-jawed. It's like it numbed him. Anything surrounding Shawn the Sheep renders my nephews into blank-staring potato sacks. They emit pulses of laughter at regular intervals but don't move or blink until the show shuts off, otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 07:02
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:This is actually a point worth making because tanuki are real actual animals that are native to the islands of Japan whereas raccoons are an introduced and harmful species. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7Nqxs93PUw So majestic!
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2017 18:24
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:This is actually a point worth making because tanuki are real actual animals that are native to the islands of Japan whereas raccoons are an introduced and harmful species. and tanukis are invasive in Europe Why don't you make a movie about that Miyazaki, huh!?  Didn't the raccoon problem in Japan stem from some massively popular anime about a raccoon which lead people to buy them as pets?
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 00:30
|
|
|
Fur farming, as always. It's how North America got the greasy drainage ditch scrub rat, aka nutria.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 00:36
|
|
|
Winklebottom posted:Didn't the raccoon problem in Japan stem from some massively popular anime about a raccoon which lead people to buy them as pets? Rascal, which was an adaptation of a Wisconsin children's book. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YMH5ntJEZ0 It shares a theme song with Frogger.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 00:41
|
|
|
I was thinking of this guy, Japan imported 1500 raccoons a month at the height of its popularity http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/childrens-book-behind-japans-raccoon-problem-180954577/ E: beaten Pick posted:Fur farming, as always. It's how North America got the greasy drainage ditch scrub rat, aka nutria. is there much call for raccoon fur? I know raccoon dog/tanuki fur is very soft and nice but dunno about raccoons
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 00:41
|
|
|
It's actually quite a common fur and a pretty decent one.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 01:01
|
|
|
Long Way North just premiered here, anyone know if it's any good?Pick posted:It's actually quite a common fur and a pretty decent one. huh, learn something new every day. Denmark's been having raccoon dogs moving up from Germany in the last few decades, but they also have a hell of a raccoon problem so it's probably just a matter of time before they wander up here.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 01:10
|
|
|
I made a video about what a dick John K is and one of the dickiest things he ever did: https://youtu.be/TCK-4S7EHbA
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 03:29
|
|
|
Watched it this morning, cool vid as always! What was that one dig at Gary the Rat? I remember liking that show when it was on Australian cable tv ages ago. But that was long before the glut of good adult animation we have these days (your ventures and archers and bojacks) so it probably doesn't stack up against what we have these days. Also I really need to get around to getting Animaniacs on dvd
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 03:37
|
|
|
Actually thinking back, Gary the Rat was just a cheaper-looking and not-as-funny Duckman
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 03:41
|
|
|
Unmature posted:I made a video about what a dick John K is and one of the dickiest things he ever did: https://youtu.be/TCK-4S7EHbA I'm glad that before there was professionals being petty on the internet, there was professionals being petty on fanzines.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 03:41
|
|
|
and creators being petty in news columns and books i.e: the dude who somehow managed to be Poe's official biographer despite openly hating the guy and had so thoroughly trashed the man's reputation that it only now started to recover.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 03:48
|
|
|
It says something when a lot of people who praise John K's work (that aren't blind fanboys) tend to accept and point out the fact that he's an rear end in a top hat, while a lot of people who condemn John K tend to accept and point out the artistic merits of his work
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 04:00
|
|
|
I felt real pity for the man after hearing him talk about his dad and seeing him try to laugh off "jokingly" tantrum at the idea of speaking to him. It was short lived.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 04:04
|
|
|
Hedrigall posted:Watched it this morning, cool vid as always! Thank you! I enjoyed Gary the Rat when it first aired when I was a kid because I loved Frasier, but man it stinks. I've been trying to watch the first episode on YouTube since I started working on this video and I can't even make it through the one. Schwarzwald posted:I felt real pity for the man after hearing him talk about his dad and seeing him try to laugh off "jokingly" tantrum at the idea of speaking to him. I went through a roller coaster of emotions making this video. He clearly had a rough upbringing that warped his sense of masculinity, but after three decades in the industry and still being such a toxic dick he kind of loses his excuse.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 04:07
|
|
|
Unmature posted:I went through a roller coaster of emotions making this video. He clearly had a rough upbringing that warped his sense of masculinity, but after three decades in the industry and still being such a toxic dick he kind of loses his excuse. The man needs a psychiatrist, not an audience.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 04:12
|
|
|
That one Bjork video he did is kinda charming (Although it's Bjork, she's always charming)
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 04:15
|
|
|
The Ayshkerbundy posted:It says something when a lot of people who praise John K's work (that aren't blind fanboys) tend to accept and point out the fact that he's an rear end in a top hat, while a lot of people who condemn John K tend to accept and point out the artistic merits of his work Though honestly stuff like Ren & Stimpy worked more because of the restrictions placed on it by the network than anything John K himself had to do with it (and later Nickelodeon eventually fired him all together and took over the show themselves). In fact, he tried to create a more "adult" version later on...it was terrible at best and was canceled after about 3 episodes. So yeah, I won't deny the man has done some decent work but he's really at his best when kept on a short leash.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 04:35
|
|
|
Hedrigall posted:Actually thinking back, Gary the Rat was just a cheaper-looking and not-as-funny Duckman The only reason I remember Gary the rat today is because when I watched the action thriller Phone Booth my dad and me thought the villain sounded exactly like Gary the rat. Watching an episode on youtube I can only wonder why I even watched the show
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 05:36
|
|
|
I decided to put on a Disney Spotify playlist at a boardgame evening today, and conversation ensued, and now I have 5 people coming to see Moana with me tomorrow night 
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2017 10:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 07:17 |
|
|
Unmature posted:I made a video about what a dick John K is and one of the dickiest things he ever did: https://youtu.be/TCK-4S7EHbA 
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2017 04:32
|
|
