Should it be legal for other people to assault you if they disagree with you? This poll is closed. |
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Yes | 183 | 49.06% | |
No | 190 | 50.94% | |
Total: | 328 votes |
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Venomous posted:so I don't recall seeing this in the thread, but last week someone who protested against Milo speaking at the University of Washington was shot. The following tweets are from a UW professor] In a super ironic turn of events for this thread, the shooter claims that he shot the victim because he thought he was a white supremacist. http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/police-release-man-arrested-in-uw-shooting/
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 20:45 |
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# ? Jun 3, 2024 23:46 |
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Crowsbeak posted:Correct. We need a democracy that acts for the will of the people. Uh-huh. And I suppose given your endorsement of authoritarian regimes, you're in favor of one party government. I could keep asking you leading questions, but it's pretty obvious you're either playing along, or have absolutely no idea that you're quacking and waddling down main street, so I suppose the only proper thing would be to ask, "Are you aware that you are a duck, or are you pretending to be one for some as of yet unseen purpose?"
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 20:49 |
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Keeshhound posted:Hey, quick reading comprehension tip: read everything twice. No one in this thread is advocating for Nazis. We're arguing that the kind of violent pretaliation that's being proposed will do more harm than good. How is it pretaliation when the people you're punching are in power, and advocating genocide openly? Also, there have been lots of people itt whatabouting the position of violence against fascists by doing a find/replace with other political ideologies, which only acts to legitimise fascism as if it's somewhere a little along an imaginary spectrum, rather than an abhorrent cancer on society. It's an insidious tactic of parasitical groups to get liberals to argue that while Spicer/Bannon/Trump are openly advocating for martial law, genocide, the removal of voting rights, posting lists of ubermnesch crimes for the country to see and starting wars of aggression they shouldn't face physical consequence because that makes them uncomfortable.
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 20:56 |
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enki42 posted:In a super ironic turn of events for this thread, the shooter claims that he shot the victim because he thought he was a white supremacist. uh-huh, and this turned out to be bullshit. http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/uw-shooting/
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 21:00 |
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Total Meatlove posted:How is it pretaliation when the people you're punching are in power, and advocating genocide openly? Which person "in power" is openly advocating genocide? This thread started by discussing Richard Spencer, an internet "celebrity" who posts pictures of racist frogs and gets the occasional interview for some reason. Someone like Bannon certainly has questionable associations, but hasn't called for genocide. Trump himself - frankly, I don't even think it's clear that he's a white supremacist. Islamaphobic, certainly. But that describes a lot of people I wouldn't consider Nazis.
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 21:01 |
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Venomous posted:uh-huh, and this turned out to be bullshit. Well, it's not bullshit that he claimed it, as far as I can tell, only that it appears that he might be lying. In any case, there's definitely a relationship to the thread contents regardless of that. The victim was black bloc, the black bloc were unquestionably violent at the protest, and the victim reportedly had a knife and brass knuckles on him (the first two points are uncontroversial, but I could be wrong on the 3rd). This is an example of a non-white supremacist getting shot as a result of a protest escalating to the point of violence.
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 21:31 |
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enki42 posted:Well, it's not bullshit that he claimed it, as far as I can tell, only that it appears that he might be lying. Everything I've read said the victim was a Wobbly not Black Bloc quote:Samie Frites, a nursing assistant who said he had gone to the protest “to make sure nobody got hurt,” said he saw a man pull “something out of his coat and started firing these little projectiles into the crowd.”
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 21:38 |
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enki42 posted:The victim was black bloc, the black bloc were unquestionably violent at the protest, and the victim reportedly had a knife and brass knuckles on him (the first two points are uncontroversial, but I could be wrong on the 3rd). Cite your sources. You're outright wrong on your first two points, so they're drat well not uncontroversial, and so far as I can find from a cursory google search you pulled the bits about the victim being armed out of your rear end. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jan 27, 2017 |
# ? Jan 27, 2017 21:52 |
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Maybe the truth is... somewhere in the middle... *whiteness envelops everything in 200 km radius*
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 22:29 |
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SSNeoman posted:Maybe the truth is... The truth is in my rear end
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# ? Jan 27, 2017 23:20 |
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enki42 posted:Well, it's not bullshit that he claimed it, as far as I can tell, only that it appears that he might be lying. Southern Poverty Law Center posted:The shooter was a Trump-supporting man who had been acting as a provocateur in the crowd all night, while the victim was an anti-fascist liberal who had been acting as a peacekeeper in the moments before he was shot. https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/01/23/alt-right-event-seattle-devolves-chaos-and-violence-outside-truth-twisting-inside Is there nothing you won't stoop to to defend fascists and nazis you clown? Cause the only peeps reporting your bullshit are right wing rags. I hope that you're a trump supporter and not a democrat cause you're an idiot jackass nazi sympathizer and I hope not even the most right wing dems love nazis as much as you.
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# ? Jan 28, 2017 00:17 |
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I would like to know more about the personality, ideology etc of this victim of nazi violence before i judge. Its a complicated situation
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# ? Jan 28, 2017 01:12 |
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Keeshhound posted:Uh-huh. And I suppose given your endorsement of authoritarian regimes, you're in favor of one party government. I could keep asking you leading questions, but it's pretty obvious you're either playing along, or have absolutely no idea that you're quacking and waddling down main street, so I suppose the only proper thing would be to ask, "Are you aware that you are a duck, or are you pretending to be one for some as of yet unseen purpose?" Not one party. But I am fine with making anti democratic ideals like the oligarchy that was supported by Buckley be reason for some empathy training.
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# ? Jan 28, 2017 01:12 |
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Calibanibal posted:I would like to know more about the personality, ideology etc of this victim of nazi violence before i judge. Its a complicated situation http://www.king5.com/news/local/seattle/victim-of-uw-protest-shooting-releases-statement/391635124 quote:The injured man states he is aware of "conflicting narratives" regarding the shooting, but hopes to engage in "constructive dialogue" with the gunman to help deescalate violence. he sure sounds violent huh?
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# ? Jan 28, 2017 08:37 |
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Condiv posted:http://www.king5.com/news/local/seattle/victim-of-uw-protest-shooting-releases-statement/391635124 p sure that dude was being sarcastic, but that link is cool
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# ? Jan 28, 2017 09:44 |
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Without the state's monopoly on violence, there is only anarchy, and from anarchy grows one thing only. Hint: It's not an inclusive, let's-all-get-together-and-sing-kumbayah-while-happily-smoking-pot society. You say "I can assault this guy because he's promoting genocide", and then the other guy says "well I can assault you, because you're promoting a different kind of genocide", and down the rabbit hole we go until at the bottom we meet and everything turns to poo poo before we all die.
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 01:00 |
Are you stupid? Nazism is not just another political identity
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 02:33 |
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Pursesnatcher posted:Without the state's monopoly on violence, there is only anarchy, and from anarchy grows one thing only. Hint: It's not an inclusive, let's-all-get-together-and-sing-kumbayah-while-happily-smoking-pot society. The state should not possess a blanket and all encompassing monopoly on violence, naturally. Humans have the right to self defense in the face of harm. Promoting genocide does not rise to this level.
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 02:43 |
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Are you stupid? Nazism is not just another political identity It actually is, but if you'd like to insist otherwise, would you mind composing an argument to that effect instead of just calling me a nazi for disagreeing with you? Because I'd love to be convinced to see things your way; it seems like a much simpler, and less stressful way to view the world.
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 03:05 |
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Keeshhound posted:It actually is, but if you'd like to insist otherwise, would you mind composing an argument to that effect instead of just calling me a nazi for disagreeing with you? Because I'd love to be convinced to see things your way; it seems like a much simpler, and less stressful way to view the world. You are not a Nazi you are a naive person.
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 03:09 |
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Keeshhound posted:It actually is, but if you'd like to insist otherwise, would you mind composing an argument to that effect instead of just calling me a nazi for disagreeing with you? Because I'd love to be convinced to see things your way; it seems like a much simpler, and less stressful way to view the world. Like how loving hard is this to understand you know words mean things right?
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 03:11 |
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"Like what happens if I call you a bottle of dishwashing detergent because I need to wash some dishes right now - what's to stop me from cramming you into my dishwasher huh?" <- a really dumb liberal
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 03:14 |
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Kilroy posted:Calling you a Nazi merely for disagreement makes about as much sense as calling you a dishrag because you disagree with me. Your Nazi-ness has nothing to do with whether you disagree with me - it depends on you being a Nazi and believing Nazi things and doing Nazi things. Why don't you go ahead and quote the post that you feel outs me as a nazi? If I'm misrepresenting your position, I apologize; I've been called as such by number of posters regarding this subject, and it's started to blur together. Crowsbeak posted:You are not a Nazi you are a naive person. I'm almost at a loss for words here. I trust that you genuinely believe what you're advocating for, but we're already in the middle of a conversation about your newfound appreciation for authoritarian forms of government. Calling me naive is shockingly lacking in awareness for you. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jan 29, 2017 |
# ? Jan 29, 2017 03:26 |
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Are you arguing a democracy should entertain its own destruction? Why should a democracy humor ideas that run counter to everything it stands for? Why is "murder" a valid political ideology to you?
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 03:50 |
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Keeshhound posted:It actually is, but if you'd like to insist otherwise, would you mind composing an argument to that effect instead of just calling me a nazi for disagreeing with you? Because I'd love to be convinced to see things your way; it seems like a much simpler, and less stressful way to view the world. At best he called you stupid. If you wish to take that to imply Nazism, I won't argue with your definition of it as 'stupid', but he did not call you a Nazi.
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 04:36 |
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Keeshhound posted:Why don't you go ahead and quote the post that you feel outs me as a nazi? If I'm misrepresenting your position, I apologize; I've been called as such by number of posters regarding this subject, and it's started to blur together. No one is calling you a nazi you nitwit. Even if they did (they didn't), but even if someone did, they're wrong and you don't deserve to get punched. Please notice that no one in the thread has said anything like "everyone with nazi-like ideals and nazi enablers should be met with violence" or even "all nazis should be murdered". It's "all nazis should be punched until they give up being nazis or at least go back underground". People who openly advocate for genocide should be met with violence because anything else is dangerously ineffective. Any power a nazi or nazism might get is going to be put in the service of enacting genocide. Nazism is not like eg. anarcho-captialism or hardcore MRA activism or any other odious political stance -- as pointed out over and over again in this thread by posters far more eloquent than me, it fundamentally cannot be met with polite criticism and debate. It doesn't help you to point out that the nazi is wrong because no poo poo. The nazi is not concerned about being right, the nazi is concerned with actually literally killing an entire race/s of people. Pursesnatcher posted:Without the state's monopoly on violence, there is only anarchy, and from anarchy grows one thing only. Hint: It's not an inclusive, let's-all-get-together-and-sing-kumbayah-while-happily-smoking-pot society. As its been rightly pointed out the state does not have a monopoly on violence. More importantly the nazi cannot say "...because you're promoting a different kind of genocide" because that's not genocide. Like, this is a really, really fundamental part of the actual concept of "genocide". Spencer isn't saying "we should kill every black person that disagrees with me". Do you understand this? It's important that you understand this.
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 05:08 |
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Nazis are subhuman runts which their entire goal is making things worse for anyone that was born differently or unlucky. They don't deserve sympathy and should be forced to go through the same terrible poo poo that they want to force on vulnerable people.
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 05:48 |
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deep web creep posted:Please notice that no one in the thread has said anything like "everyone with nazi-like ideals and nazi enablers should be met with violence" or even "all nazis should be murdered". It's "all nazis should be punched until they give up being nazis or at least go back underground". Extreme0 posted:Nazis are subhuman runts which their entire goal is making things worse for anyone that was born differently or unlucky. They don't deserve sympathy and should be forced to go through the same terrible poo poo that they want to force on vulnerable people. e: VVVVVV Are you drawing the line at punches? Your reasoning and rhetoric seems to justify far worse. FreeKillB fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Jan 29, 2017 |
# ? Jan 29, 2017 05:51 |
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Punching nazis is good poo poo and should be encouraged. FreeKillB posted:e: VVVVVV Are you drawing the line at punches? Your reasoning seems to justify far worse. If a Nazi gets the same lovely treatment that they would put through onto vulnerable people then I consider that justice in my eyes. Extreme0 fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Jan 29, 2017 |
# ? Jan 29, 2017 05:53 |
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quote:"everyone with nazi-like ideals I'm actually saying this, soz bro. If you advocate for genocide you deserve a hit. Keeshhound posted:It actually is, but if you'd like to insist otherwise, would you mind composing an argument to that effect instead of just calling me a nazi for disagreeing with you? Because I'd love to be convinced to see things your way; it seems like a much simpler, and less stressful way to view the world. Well for starters Nazism doesn't have a consistent political agenda besides the whole hypernationalism and crypto-/not-so-crypto-genocidal rhetoric. Ask three modern day nazis what they'd like to see from the government and they'd probably respond with three different opinions. They'll prob say some leftist ideals (more jobs for families, tax breaks for families, gun control and so on) or some right-wing points (more unified country, no flag burning, incentives for businesses, no gun control and so on). We take for granted that Nazis are right wing, but that's not totally true. The modern Neo-nazis have thrown their lot with the Republicans because FOR SOME REASON that party resonates most with the aforementioned hypernationalism and crypto-/not-so-crypto-genocidal rhetoric. Past that point, it's a case-by-case basis on whether they agree with the rest of the Republicans stances. Because they are not a political party, but a hate group. They are tied together by a mutual hatred of their opponents. Once that stops tying them, the group would quickly dissolve into massive infighting because they really don't agree with each other beyond that point. Repblicans have been courting these sort of groups since the era of southern strategy, and that's why they've shifted right and got such a bad rep outside the US center. This has given them a lot more voting power, but has given them a muddled, anti-middle class, far right platform. That said, the Republicans are an actual party because they do in fact have a platform, such as it is. Hate groups do not. Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Jan 29, 2017 |
# ? Jan 29, 2017 05:59 |
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deep web creep posted:As its been rightly pointed out the state does not have a monopoly on violence. The State's monopoly on violence, or if we're going to be unnecessarily verbose so as to be Technically Correct rather than just assuming people know the concept and get the point, "the State's monopoly on the legitimate application of physical force", is total. If there's a law allowing the exertion of physical force in defense of your own or others' person or property, then that is part of the State's monopoly on violence, as it is the laws of the State which gives you sanction to exert said force. The agents of the State, too, are bound by the confines of the laws of the State. TL;DR: The monopoly on violence does not mean "only cops or soldiers can punch", it means the law defines who can punch under which circumstances. If you remove the State's monopoly on violence in order to freely punch nazis, what you're really doing is saying "screw the law, I hate this dude". And, as I said, from that grows only anarchy. As for your point about what the nazi can and cannot say, who's going to stop him? There's no more State to monopolize violence, let alone police hate speech, and you just made it clear that anyone should be able to punch anyone if they're "promoting genocide". If, from his point of view, you're promoting "white genocide", you're simply one more bag on the punching line. poo poo, for all your talk about nazis some of you people have a limited grasp on history. They didn't rise to power by "advocating" this or that, they rose to power through undermining the State's monopoly on violence and punching people they regarded as "a threat to our great and good values".
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 13:12 |
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People get punched in the face for being assholes all the time, and yet society hasn't collapsed as a direct result. The problem with liberals is that they think the state and its institutions as they exist in the real world work in the interests of the citizenry, which they manifestly do not. Nazis and state power have more of a common cause with one another than either will ever have with you.
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 13:44 |
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guys what if the nazis were right all along???????
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 15:13 |
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Venomous posted:so I don't recall seeing this in the thread, but last week someone who protested against Milo speaking at the University of Washington was shot. The following tweets are from a UW professor. "None of my Colleagues checked to see if i am feeling safe to go to work"
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 15:23 |
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Been thinking alot about this difficult issue and i may have a compromise everyone itt can agree on - nazis should be punched, but ONLY by trained martial artists. I feel that this addresses most concerns
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 15:30 |
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Pursesnatcher posted:The State's monopoly on violence, or if we're going to be unnecessarily verbose so as to be Technically Correct rather than just assuming people know the concept and get the point, "the State's monopoly on the legitimate application of physical force", is total. If there's a law allowing the exertion of physical force in defense of your own or others' person or property, then that is part of the State's monopoly on violence, as it is the laws of the State which gives you sanction to exert said force. The agents of the State, too, are bound by the confines of the laws of the State. Same reasoning is used by Al-Qaeda and the like when they attack the west, "they are genociding and destroying the Muslims". Funny how I don't see anyone defending them using this logic, it is exactly the same reasoning.
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 16:16 |
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That isn't al-Qaeda's justification for attacks on the west though?
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 16:27 |
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Pseudo-God posted:Same reasoning is used by Al-Qaeda and the like when they attack the west, "they are genociding and destroying the Muslims". Funny how I don't see anyone defending them using this logic, it is exactly the same reasoning. Well, if Al Qaeda specifically attacked just people who openly called for the genocide of Muslims you might have a point. Also, most people in this thread are not advocating for killing Nazis, but rather just punching them. I wouldn't have a problem if Al Qaeda's terrorism consisted of just punching people who wanted to genocide Muslims. (And Muslims are also not remotely comparable to Nazis, what the gently caress)
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 16:41 |
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TomViolence posted:People get punched in the face for being assholes all the time, and yet society hasn't collapsed as a direct result. The problem with liberals is that they think the state and its institutions as they exist in the real world work in the interests of the citizenry, which they manifestly do not. Nazis and state power have more of a common cause with one another than either will ever have with you. I just think that, for my part, it's remarkably unaware and short-sighted for socialists in particular to argue that it's OK to commit violence on someone whose political system has violently killed tens of millions of their own citizens.
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 17:06 |
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# ? Jun 3, 2024 23:46 |
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DeusExMachinima posted:I just think that, for my part, it's remarkably unaware and short-sighted for socialists in particular to argue that it's OK to commit violence on someone whose political system has violently killed tens of millions of their own citizens. The difference is that Nazis explicitly make wanting to kill millions part of their ideology. Capitalism has also resulted in millions of deaths, but it isn't an explicit part of the ideology.
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# ? Jan 29, 2017 17:08 |