Venomous posted:

so I don't recall seeing this in the thread, but last week someone who protested against Milo speaking at the University of Washington was shot. The following tweets are from a UW professor]

Crowsbeak posted:

Correct. We need a democracy that acts for the will of the people.

Keeshhound posted:

Hey, quick reading comprehension tip: read everything twice. No one in this thread is advocating for Nazis. We're arguing that the kind of violent pretaliation that's being proposed will do more harm than good.

enki42 posted:

In a super ironic turn of events for this thread, the shooter claims that he shot the victim because he thought he was a white supremacist.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/police-release-man-arrested-in-uw-shooting/

Total Meatlove posted:

How is it pretaliation when the people you're punching are in power, and advocating genocide openly?

Venomous posted:

uh-huh, and this turned out to be bullshit.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/uw-shooting/

enki42 posted:

Well, it's not bullshit that he claimed it, as far as I can tell, only that it appears that he might be lying.

In any case, there's definitely a relationship to the thread contents regardless of that. The victim was black bloc, the black bloc were unquestionably violent at the protest, and the victim reportedly had a knife and brass knuckles on him (the first two points are uncontroversial, but I could be wrong on the 3rd).

This is an example of a non-white supremacist getting shot as a result of a protest escalating to the point of violence.

quote:

Samie Frites, a nursing assistant who said he had gone to the protest “to make sure nobody got hurt,” said he saw a man pull “something out of his coat and started firing these little projectiles into the crowd.”

The law-enforcement source said it was pepper spray.

“I yelled at him to stop,” Frites said. “That’s when this other guy came out of the crowd and went after him.”

Frites said he grabbed him to try to prevent a confrontation. That’s when Frites said he heard a “muffled noise,” which he is now sure was the gunshot.

“The guy I was holding looked back at me over his shoulder. He looked bad. He was really scared,” said Frites, who said he lowered the wounded man to the ground.

The shooting victim’s condition improved to satisfactory and he was moved out of the intensive-care unit Monday night at Harborview Medical Center.

Several sources have identified the victim as Josh Dukes, 34, a Seattle computer-security engineer and a member of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) General Defense Committee, which describes itself as an “anti-racist and anti-fascist organization.”

enki42 posted:

The victim was black bloc, the black bloc were unquestionably violent at the protest, and the victim reportedly had a knife and brass knuckles on him (the first two points are uncontroversial, but I could be wrong on the 3rd).

This is an example of a non-white supremacist getting shot as a result of a protest escalating to the point of violence.

SSNeoman posted:

Maybe the truth is...

somewhere in the middle...

*whiteness envelops everything in 200 km radius*

enki42 posted:

Well, it's not bullshit that he claimed it, as far as I can tell, only that it appears that he might be lying.

In any case, there's definitely a relationship to the thread contents regardless of that. The victim was black bloc, the black bloc were unquestionably violent at the protest, and the victim reportedly had a knife and brass knuckles on him (the first two points are uncontroversial, but I could be wrong on the 3rd).

This is an example of a non-white supremacist getting shot as a result of a protest escalating to the point of violence.

Southern Poverty Law Center posted:

The shooter was a Trump-supporting man who had been acting as a provocateur in the crowd all night, while the victim was an anti-fascist liberal who had been acting as a peacekeeper in the moments before he was shot.

Keeshhound posted:

Uh-huh. And I suppose given your endorsement of authoritarian regimes, you're in favor of one party government. I could keep asking you leading questions, but it's pretty obvious you're either playing along, or have absolutely no idea that you're quacking and waddling down main street, so I suppose the only proper thing would be to ask, "Are you aware that you are a duck, or are you pretending to be one for some as of yet unseen purpose?"

Calibanibal posted:

I would like to know more about the personality, ideology etc of this victim of nazi violence before i judge. Its a complicated situation

quote:

The injured man states he is aware of "conflicting narratives" regarding the shooting, but hopes to engage in "constructive dialogue" with the gunman to help deescalate violence.

Condiv posted:

http://www.king5.com/news/local/seattle/victim-of-uw-protest-shooting-releases-statement/391635124


he sure sounds violent huh?

Pursesnatcher posted:

Without the state's monopoly on violence, there is only anarchy, and from anarchy grows one thing only. Hint: It's not an inclusive, let's-all-get-together-and-sing-kumbayah-while-happily-smoking-pot society.

You say "I can assault this guy because he's promoting genocide", and then the other guy says "well I can assault you, because you're promoting a different kind of genocide", and down the rabbit hole we go until at the bottom we meet and everything turns to poo poo before we all die.

SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:

Are you stupid? Nazism is not just another political identity

Keeshhound posted:

It actually is, but if you'd like to insist otherwise, would you mind composing an argument to that effect instead of just calling me a nazi for disagreeing with you? Because I'd love to be convinced to see things your way; it seems like a much simpler, and less stressful way to view the world.

Keeshhound posted:

It actually is, but if you'd like to insist otherwise, would you mind composing an argument to that effect instead of just calling me a nazi for disagreeing with you? Because I'd love to be convinced to see things your way; it seems like a much simpler, and less stressful way to view the world.

Kilroy posted:

Calling you a Nazi merely for disagreement makes about as much sense as calling you a dishrag because you disagree with me. Your Nazi-ness has nothing to do with whether you disagree with me - it depends on you being a Nazi and believing Nazi things and doing Nazi things.

Like how loving hard is this to understand you know words mean things right?

Crowsbeak posted:

You are not a Nazi you are a naive person.

Keeshhound posted:

It actually is, but if you'd like to insist otherwise, would you mind composing an argument to that effect instead of just calling me a nazi for disagreeing with you? Because I'd love to be convinced to see things your way; it seems like a much simpler, and less stressful way to view the world.

Keeshhound posted:

Why don't you go ahead and quote the post that you feel outs me as a nazi? If I'm misrepresenting your position, I apologize; I've been called as such by number of posters regarding this subject, and it's started to blur together.


I'm almost at a loss for words here. I trust that you genuinely believe what you're advocating for, but we're already in the middle of a conversation about your newfound appreciation for authoritarian forms of government. Calling me naive is shockingly lacking in awareness for you.

Pursesnatcher posted:

Without the state's monopoly on violence, there is only anarchy, and from anarchy grows one thing only. Hint: It's not an inclusive, let's-all-get-together-and-sing-kumbayah-while-happily-smoking-pot society.

You say "I can assault this guy because he's promoting genocide", and then the other guy says "well I can assault you, because you're promoting a different kind of genocide", and down the rabbit hole we go until at the bottom we meet and everything turns to poo poo before we all die.

deep web creep posted:

Please notice that no one in the thread has said anything like "everyone with nazi-like ideals and nazi enablers should be met with violence" or even "all nazis should be murdered". It's "all nazis should be punched until they give up being nazis or at least go back underground".

Extreme0 posted:

Nazis are subhuman runts which their entire goal is making things worse for anyone that was born differently or unlucky. They don't deserve sympathy and should be forced to go through the same terrible poo poo that they want to force on vulnerable people.

FreeKillB posted:

FreeKillB posted:

e: VVVVVV Are you drawing the line at punches? Your reasoning seems to justify far worse.

quote:

"everyone with nazi-like ideals and nazi enablers should be met with violence"

Keeshhound posted:

It actually is, but if you'd like to insist otherwise, would you mind composing an argument to that effect instead of just calling me a nazi for disagreeing with you? Because I'd love to be convinced to see things your way; it seems like a much simpler, and less stressful way to view the world.

deep web creep posted:

As its been rightly pointed out the state does not have a monopoly on violence.
More importantly the nazi cannot say "...because you're promoting a different kind of genocide" because that's not genocide. Like, this is a really, really fundamental part of the actual concept of "genocide".
Spencer isn't saying "we should kill every black person that disagrees with me".
Do you understand this?
It's important that you understand this.

Venomous posted:

so I don't recall seeing this in the thread, but last week someone who protested against Milo speaking at the University of Washington was shot. The following tweets are from a UW professor.

Pursesnatcher posted:

The State's monopoly on violence, or if we're going to be unnecessarily verbose so as to be Technically Correct rather than just assuming people know the concept and get the point, "the State's monopoly on the legitimate application of physical force", is total. If there's a law allowing the exertion of physical force in defense of your own or others' person or property, then that is part of the State's monopoly on violence, as it is the laws of the State which gives you sanction to exert said force. The agents of the State, too, are bound by the confines of the laws of the State.

TL;DR: The monopoly on violence does not mean "only cops or soldiers can punch", it means the law defines who can punch under which circumstances.

If you remove the State's monopoly on violence in order to freely punch nazis, what you're really doing is saying "screw the law, I hate this dude". And, as I said, from that grows only anarchy.

As for your point about what the nazi can and cannot say, who's going to stop him? There's no more State to monopolize violence, let alone police hate speech, and you just made it clear that anyone should be able to punch anyone if they're "promoting genocide". If, from his point of view, you're promoting "white genocide", you're simply one more bag on the punching line.

poo poo, for all your talk about nazis some of you people have a limited grasp on history. They didn't rise to power by "advocating" this or that, they rose to power through undermining the State's monopoly on violence and punching people they regarded as "a threat to our great and good values".

Pseudo-God posted:

Same reasoning is used by Al-Qaeda and the like when they attack the west, "they are genociding and destroying the Muslims". Funny how I don't see anyone defending them using this logic, it is exactly the same reasoning.

TomViolence posted:

People get punched in the face for being assholes all the time, and yet society hasn't collapsed as a direct result. The problem with liberals is that they think the state and its institutions as they exist in the real world work in the interests of the citizenry, which they manifestly do not. Nazis and state power have more of a common cause with one another than either will ever have with you.

DeusExMachinima posted:

I just think that, for my part, it's remarkably unaware and short-sighted for socialists in particular to argue that it's OK to commit violence on someone whose political system has violently killed tens of millions of their own citizens.