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Plus, there are ways to subvert Damocles that don't even involve respawns if you're ballsy enough to try them. Book of Shadows, Unicorn Stump/Horn, pretty much any kind of invincibility will stop the sword from killing you. You just have to keep your eye on that sword and be quick on the draw. 
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Jan 29, 2017 21:44
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As other people are saying, it's basically just a more powerful version of the suicide king card, so it takes up a higher quality slot. Spacebar instead of card/pill slot. You can never get the effect by accident because you have to activate it, and like many items that can ruin your run first time you'll probably learn what it does after just one use. You can completely negate it by not getting hit or having holy mantle, and if you do take damage it's only a chance to kill you on a time delay so you can at least hope you find a one up with your extra items. And it's much better if you have extra lives, also much like suicide king. It's a good item, stop whining.
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Jan 29, 2017 23:15
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AbstractNapper posted:About the Greedier mode... it seems that the item pool for the first room is intentionally limited (I think the "strongest" item you can get is Magic Mushroom). I keep seeing the same stuff over and over. It's the boss item pool
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Jan 30, 2017 00:16
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There are a few dps upgrades. If I can get one in the first room I can usually win Greedier Mode, it-s similar to regular Greed Mode where your character usually stays ahead of the curve.
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Jan 30, 2017 00:21
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Ugh finally got a good Keeper run and no Void portal spawned.
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Jan 30, 2017 02:40
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I didn't realize a second victory lap made you The Lost, I didn't know if I lost No. 2 or not and was playing scared as hell. That was legitimately super tense + super fun.Focacciasaurus_Rex posted:As other people are saying, it's basically just a more powerful version of the suicide king card, so it takes up a higher quality slot. Spacebar instead of card/pill slot. I agree with this, but I want to mention I've played 500+ hours of Rebirth and I'm fairly sure I've had an opportunity to use a Suicide King with extra lives once. There have to be insane odds on that, right?
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Jan 30, 2017 06:22
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I just ruined an extremely promising It's The Key run by picking up a golden bomb in Sheol. I had completely forgotten that it counted as a bomb. Someone please make me feel better. 
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Jan 30, 2017 09:52
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There are sooooo many ways to avoid getting killed by Damocles. If you have, say, a chariot card then having the sword above you adds a neat extra layer of difficulty to the game in having to keep an eye on it while you're doing everything else and getting ready to pop that card immediately which is tense as gently caress. The trade-off for adding this level of difficulty is all the extra items you get. That is, actually, really cool. I think people are looking at the concept in a very superficial way and failing to consider the many many contingencies that give the player a way out.
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Jan 30, 2017 19:08
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If I designed Isaac, instead of the pits being functionally identical to walls, they'd be insta-kills unless you had flying, so you'd really have to pay attention to them. It's always annoyed me that the bottomless pits are "things that you can't cross" instead of "things that you have to be careful to avoid". They'd kill non-flying enemies too, though. I'd maybe also remove How To Jump from the game and make jumping something you can always do, but you can't jump through walls, only over pits.
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Jan 30, 2017 19:31
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21 Muns posted:If I designed Isaac, instead of the pits being functionally identical to walls, they'd be insta-kills unless you had flying, so you'd really have to pay attention to them. It's always annoyed me that the bottomless pits are "things that you can't cross" instead of "things that you have to be careful to avoid". They'd kill non-flying enemies too, though. I'd maybe also remove How To Jump from the game and make jumping something you can always do, but you can't jump through walls, only over pits. I'm glad you didn't design Isaac. I do want a little animation of enemies falling into the pit if you kill them near a pit though. Doesn't Enter the Gungeon do that?
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Jan 30, 2017 19:37
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21 Muns posted:If I designed Isaac, instead of the pits being functionally identical to walls, they'd be insta-kills unless you had flying, so you'd really have to pay attention to them. It's always annoyed me that the bottomless pits are "things that you can't cross" instead of "things that you have to be careful to avoid". They'd kill non-flying enemies too, though. I'd maybe also remove How To Jump from the game and make jumping something you can always do, but you can't jump through walls, only over pits.
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Jan 30, 2017 19:37
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The ladder interacts with pits in a unique way mimicking classic The Legend of Zelda conventions, which is from which vanilla BoI took the most inspiration.
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Jan 30, 2017 19:44
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21 Muns posted:If I designed Isaac, instead of the pits being functionally identical to walls, they'd be insta-kills unless you had flying, so you'd really have to pay attention to them. It's always annoyed me that the bottomless pits are "things that you can't cross" instead of "things that you have to be careful to avoid". They'd kill non-flying enemies too, though. I'd maybe also remove How To Jump from the game and make jumping something you can always do, but you can't jump through walls, only over pits. Yeah sounds like a blast. I too love losing runs to sadistic puzzle trap rooms.
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Jan 30, 2017 19:48
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I'd probably create some items specifically to alleviate the threat of pits; one that makes pits harder to walk off of (like, you stop at the edge of a pit for a few seconds and have to hold the walk button to walk into it) and one that removes their lethality entirely and makes them equivalent to trap doors; ie, if you fall through them you go onto the next floor.
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Jan 30, 2017 20:04
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I know it's not cricket to just cry out "troll", but Damocles already showed us how easily the people in this thread fixate in dumb poo poo, so, "troll". Constructive pit discussion: how are you supposed to get through the room in Caves that is just one tile wide from top to bottom with boom flies everywhere? I've tried spamming shots asap, and I've tried holding my shots until the right time and finding the right place to stand first, but the flies always bump into eachother erratically and get you no matter where you stand on the Y axis. I feel it's impossible to pass that room without getting hit unless you have enough damage to kill everyone in the first two seconds or a room-clearing/invincibility item. Orange Harrison fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jan 30, 2017 |
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Jan 30, 2017 20:07
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Orange Harrison posted:On the subject of pits, how are you supposed to get through the room in Caves that is just one tile wide from top to bottom with boom flies everywhere? I've tried spamming shots asap, and I've tried holding my shots until the right time and finding the right place to stand first, but the flies always bump into eachother erratically and get you no matter where you stand on the Y axis. I feel it's impossible to pass that room without getting hit unless you have enough damage to kill everyone in the first two seconds or a room-clearing/invincibility item. That room sucks without flying or high damage, but it's doable. The horizontal version of that room with the uh... cloud lookin' enemy that shoots red tears always gets me also. I'll often dodge backward as I kill it and watch helplessly as a shot from it slowly makes its way to me almost perfectly lined up with the single ledge. No way to avoid it without flying if the door doesn't open with enough time for me to back out before the shot lands.
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Jan 30, 2017 20:11
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Obviously I'm not saying that if I were put in charge of the currently existing Binding Of Isaac, I'd make the pits instant kills; BOI is already a very well-established game and it'd confuse too many people to make such a huge change. I'm saying that if I were designing a game like Isaac, from the ground up, I wouldn't have the pits be a slightly different flavor of wall, and it annoys me that BOI basically used them that way. I also like a mix of instant-kill threats and mere some-health threats (like in Spelunky), because it gives the player different threat levels with which to assess different situations, and it keeps players on their toes even if they've obtained obscene amounts of health or strong regen combos. Pits make sense as an obvious instant-kill environmental hazard. I also think some bosses should have instant-kill attacks - though, again, it wouldn't make much sense to add them to Isaac, as it's an already well-established game with an already well-established meta/"feel".
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Jan 30, 2017 20:19
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Dying instantly for dumb reasons is actually cool and fun. The player can just avoid walking into pits. Maybe you should all just "get good".
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Jan 30, 2017 20:22
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i wouldn't cite spelunky as an inspiration considering that they're wildly different games and spelunky also doesn't involve avoiding a million projectiles
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Jan 30, 2017 20:24
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21 Muns posted:Obviously I'm not saying that if I were put in charge of the currently existing Binding Of Isaac, I'd make the pits instant kills; BOI is already a very well-established game and it'd confuse too many people to make such a huge change. I'm saying that if I were designing a game like Isaac, from the ground up, I wouldn't have the pits be a slightly different flavor of wall, and it annoys me that BOI basically used them that way. I also like a mix of instant-kill threats and mere some-health threats (like in Spelunky), because it gives the player different threat levels with which to assess different situations, and it keeps players on their toes even if they've obtained obscene amounts of health or strong regen combos. Pits make sense as an obvious instant-kill environmental hazard. I also think some bosses should have instant-kill attacks - though, again, it wouldn't make much sense to add them to Isaac, as it's an already well-established game with an already well-established meta/"feel". In a traditional rogue-like, one of the first priorities is becoming invulnerable to the most common forms of instant death. Spelunky gets away with it because it is much less fast-paced than BoI. Even in speedruns, they take time to stand on safe spots and look down at the next section, and Spelunky never has the same density of enemies and projectiles that BoI has. There's a reason falling into pits only does damage in Enter the Gungeon. If you take inspiration from bullet hell shooters for your roguelike, you cannot allow for instant-kill effects. The screen is just too chaotic.
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Jan 30, 2017 20:39
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Dying instantly for dumb reasons is actually cool and fun. The player can just avoid walking into pits. Maybe you should all just "get good". Make it an item instead of a base mechanic 
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Jan 30, 2017 21:39
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Antibirth seemed really really fun once I unlocked the alternate levels until I got to the Siren when I had a bunch of familiars. That got very unpleasant very fast!
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Jan 30, 2017 22:02
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Orange Harrison posted:Constructive pit discussion: how are you supposed to get through the room in Caves that is just one tile wide from top to bottom with boom flies everywhere? I've tried spamming shots asap, and I've tried holding my shots until the right time and finding the right place to stand first, but the flies always bump into eachother erratically and get you no matter where you stand on the Y axis. I feel it's impossible to pass that room without getting hit unless you have enough damage to kill everyone in the first two seconds or a room-clearing/invincibility item. That room is easy. Let the flies cross the centre line for the first time then shoot at one as it moves towards the outer wall. It will usually explode before reaching the wall and probably take another one with it.
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Jan 30, 2017 22:18
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There is a special place reserved in Hell for the person responsible for the double Mega Fatty boss fight in the first Gredier floor. As if one of those wasn't already a terrible design decision and a horrible experience to fight. In the future I'll probably auto-reset the run whenever I'm encountering those assholes with barely any damage upgrade.
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Jan 30, 2017 23:14
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I'm really glad I never got the double sisters vis fight (4 sisters, to be clear) in their pre-nerf state, because dang that was pretty hairy just as it was.
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Jan 30, 2017 23:59
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Vis sisters is pretty cool in its current state. My new most hated new boss is Big Horn when I have spectral/piercing tears.
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Jan 31, 2017 00:01
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Big Horn in general really. Why they gave health scaling to a Caves boss is baffling.
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Jan 31, 2017 00:02
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People were enjoying the game which is against the design goals.
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Jan 31, 2017 00:07
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I like that his gimmick is that he's super easy to kill once you feed him a bomb, but I kind of wish that he'd do something like a brief vacuum (like Mega Fatty) before he fired his bouncing balls so you didn't have to shove the bombs into his mouth yourself.
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Jan 31, 2017 00:08
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Oh, you're supposed to feed Big Horn a bomb? That's handy to know. Also, really wishing I'd completed the Brains! challenge before Afterbirth+. The wiki suggests just resetting if you encounter Big Horn, which is definitely not necessary, but it's a real long fight. Maybe with the bomb thing though, it'll be easier.
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Jan 31, 2017 00:13
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AbstractNapper posted:There is a special place reserved in Hell for the person responsible for the double Mega Fatty boss fight in the first Gredier floor. As if one of those wasn't already a terrible design decision and a horrible experience to fight. If you get the champ version, there's a chance you'll have to deal with 2 of them. 6 on Womb.
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Jan 31, 2017 01:15
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Man, Plan C is a godsend sometimes. I had a good Keeper Greedier mode run going (crapton of tears up + my reflection) and had it from a devil deal chest in a devil room. Then in the chest there was a rock-walled in trapdoor and thunder thighs for sale that let me waltz right down in there. Now I'm just down to the lost (which I'm super tempted to use a clicker + broken run to try and cheese) for greedier and 12 total unlocks left. I still haven't gotten a U Broke It! run, although the game's teased me a little by giving me restock one run, then ace of diamonds + blank card on like caves 1 the next one. DACK FAYDEN posted:Thank god you aren't in charge of this game. I can't even imagine how loving awful that would be. Impressive that you managed to hit something worse than anything Edmund's come up with, though. I honestly can't imagine how many pits I'd walk into under curse of darkness. Geight posted:I'm really glad I never got the double sisters vis fight (4 sisters, to be clear) in their pre-nerf state, because dang that was pretty hairy just as it was. Wait until you get the 6 Sisters Vis Greedier Mode room! I almost lost my Azazel run because of that.
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Jan 31, 2017 04:20
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Power of Pecota posted:I still haven't gotten a U Broke It! run, although the game's teased me a little by giving me restock one run, then ace of diamonds + blank card on like caves 1 the next one.
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Jan 31, 2017 05:22
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Rock Bottom is an extremely silly Antibirth item and I love it. It resets you to base stats, but then prevents your stats from being lowered by any means for the rest of the run. All items picked up from that point on will have only beneficial effects, so depending on when you get it, it can be the best thing ever or a complete do-not-take run destroyer. Get it early, and enjoy your Polyphemus/Inner Eye/Mutant Spider/Eve's Mascara with a totally normal fire rate. Go ahead and pick up that Soy Milk and marvel as your tear delay goes to 1 and your damage doesn't change at all. It even works with temporary stat boosts, like activating Whore of Babylon or picking up Curved Horn, applying their beneficial effects permanently (though only once apiece, so sadly you can't just keep dropping Curved Horn and picking it up again to give yourself 100 damage). Get it late during curse of the blind? It's like a brand new run! In the worst way. 
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Jan 31, 2017 05:27
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That's not at all how rock bottom works. Long story short it tracks your current stats and will never let them drop below that even if your stats should drop below it in future. However it still tracks what your stats are supposed to be, so if you pick up soy milk, you'll get your 1 delay but you'll probably never actually raise your damage stat above what it was when you grabbed soy milk. Also the "reduced stats" part of rock bottom was removed before the release build but kilburn apparently forgot to change the description text. Einwand fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Jan 31, 2017 |
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Jan 31, 2017 05:44
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Huh. That's... interesting. That's a decent way to prevent you from exploiting it too hard, I guess, and it explains why picking up and dropping Curved Horn doesn't give you infinite damage. Still, without the stats down, there's basically no situation in which you wouldn't want it. I kinda liked it better when I thought there was a downside, weirdly enough. Oh well. Now, if only I could beat Boss Rush with Jacob and Esau, I could actually find the drat thing myself.
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Jan 31, 2017 06:14
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DACK FAYDEN posted:Oh poo poo, I forgot that existed. How many items do you have to get? 50 in one run. Just Blank Card + Jera the first Chest room and you're golden.
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Jan 31, 2017 06:19
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Was getting my re-run achievement last night with Apollyon and voided the d20, then found sack head and crooked penny shop, after several crooked penny voids it finally lost the coin toss. From then on, whenever I activated the void I created an over stuffed room. Never seen that happen before.
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Jan 31, 2017 15:38
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Did you duplicate and Void a Void? I think weird poo poo starts happening when you do.
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Jan 31, 2017 15:59
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Did you duplicate and Void a Void? I think weird poo poo starts happening when you do. as far as I can tell, I don't think I did. I didn't want to risk my void by flipping the coin.
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Jan 31, 2017 16:38
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