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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xsUPem8iW0
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Feb 2, 2017 18:37
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People do realize that both the famous civil right movements that people keep quoting as peaceful had majorly aggressive and violent elements yes?
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Feb 2, 2017 18:41
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Roland Jones posted:Okay, then, what should the students have done? Bought all the tickets then walked out. It was done to... John Yoo? I'm forgetting here. There was another conservative speaker who came to a campus and just as he started speaking people stood up and walked out one by one. It was an effective message.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:42
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paranoid randroid posted:Donald Trump is president and youre over here whining about legitimizing nazis. It hasn't, actually. Trump won with a minority of voters, in a country where a majority don't bother to vote. And a majority of Trump's voters turned a blind eye to the fascism and focused on personality and their hatred of Clinton. It is still extremely valuable to point out loudly whenever possible that these fascist scum are fascist scum. But that message is clouded when the dominant media narrative is "violent liberal terrorists attack peaceful students trying to attend a man's speech at a college." It's counterproductive to feed into that narrative. coupbrick posted:So he wins if he gets a speech or he wins if he doesn't get a speech. I choose let him win without a speech. If he wins he gets a speech at Berkeley, which accomplishes approximately nothing for his cause, because speeches at Berkeley are worthless. Especially speeches by Nazis. Do you really think he's going to convert a significant proportion of Bay Area college students? The man's goal was to get protested in as public a way possible, and he succeeded beautifully. Ask yourself this: why is this: paranoid randroid posted:at a glance it appears that the people who got maced last night showed up to a riot in Trump gear in an attempt to troll an angry mob, so lets call it an object lesson to the tune of "real life is not Reddit and you are not as funny as you think you are"
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Feb 2, 2017 18:45
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Ron Jeremy posted:Bought all the tickets then walked out. It was done to... John Yoo? I'm forgetting here. There was another conservative speaker who came to a campus and just as he started speaking people stood up and walked out one by one. It was an effective message. So effective you're questioning yourself about who was speaking and what they were protesting.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:46
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/827112633224544256?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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Feb 2, 2017 18:46
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This and Davis were the right thing to do and hopefully other colleges will think more carefully about booking people like Milo. Harley Davidson pulled out of a Trump engagement because they didn't want the protests. College administrators are isolated from the harm Milo and his fans are doing and won't come to the right conclusion on their own.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:49
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Leperflesh posted:Him speaking at Berkeley is less legitimizing of his poo poo than him being driven out of Berkeley by violent left-wingers. It was an absolute success for him and his movement and the people who think they accomplished something good in this thread are completely delusional. I fundamentally disagree with the concept that denying him a voice among intellectual centers provides him legitimization, for the same reason I support holocaust deniers being denied speaking opportunities at colleges: Any situation that (implicitly or explicitly) equivocates views which deny humans dignity with humanitarianism and rationalism should be rallied against by any decent person. Trabisnikof posted:And instead he spent the night on Fox News. Successfully stopping Milo from reaching an audience. I think it's fair for university students to be more immediately concerned with preventing a betrayal of their institution and what they believe its values are, tbh
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Feb 2, 2017 18:51
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snyprmag posted:This and Davis were the right thing to do and hopefully other colleges will think more carefully about booking people like Milo. Harley Davidson pulled out of a Trump engagement because they didn't want the protests. It would have been illegal for UC Berkeley to deny Milo after he was invited by the college Republicans. Chelb posted:I fundamentally disagree with the concept that denying him a voice among intellectual centers provides him legitimization, for the same reason I support holocaust deniers being denied speaking opportunities at colleges: Any situation that (implicitly or explicitly) equivocates views which deny humans dignity with humanitarianism and rationalism should be rallied against by any decent person. "Free Speech for All is a Betrayal of UC Berkeley and its values" they said without a hint of irony.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:52
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Leperflesh posted:Ask yourself this: why is this: i dont think they intended to get attacked, i think theyre entitled, poorly socialized morons, and the fact that they turned out for a Milo event only reinforces this because his fanbase is entirely made up of undermedicated twitter eggs Trabisnikof posted:"Free Speech for All is a Betrayal of UC Berkeley and its values" they said without a hint of irony. yeah im sure the student of Steven Bannon gives a legitimate gently caress about free speech
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Feb 2, 2017 18:55
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Trabisnikof posted:It would have been illegal for UC Berkeley to deny Milo after he was invited by the college Republicans. No it wouldnt be. They could have refused on the grounds of safety and security fees which the college had to pay. Literally just copy and paste what the other uc campuses said.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:55
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AngryBooch posted:So effective you're questioning yourself about who was speaking and what they were protesting. Point noted. But that I remembered it at all makes the opposite point. Googled. It was Allen West https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo0mZc15Q78
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Feb 2, 2017 18:55
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If we want to talk about messaging, why don't we talk about the implication of somebody like Milo being passively allowed to speak at a self-proclaimed center of learning, which the far right movement is actively against? How is there not a concern to be had about false and hateful views being given the same platform given to intellectual luminaries?Trabisnikof posted:"Free Speech for All is a Betrayal of UC Berkeley and its values" they said without a hint of irony. I don't personally believe that hate speech (based, as all hate speech is, within falsehoods) should be condoned by any university, but even independent of that point which you're doing a good job of twisting, I definitely don't think that the protestors are wrong for also thinking that, or displaying their opinions through protest.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:59
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White gun nuts show up to restaurants openly carrying firearms. Scaring the hell out of people. Pissing off libs. Nobody says "this is gonna hurt them with the public." Everyone pretty much acknowledges that the gun nuts are gonna justify it, the rest of us are gonna hate it, and the people experiencing it are gonna get scared. White supremacists attend Trumps rallies with confederate flags, punch counter-protesters, act like scum. They're garbage, but people on the right will justify it and people on the left will hate it. Lefty kids get rowdy at some dumbshit Nazi and punch some dumb MAGA trolls and vandalize some property. Suddenly this persuadable middle appears! You can't do this, guys, you're making yourselves look bad. People will listen to you and turn on the Nazi if you just behave yourselves!
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Feb 2, 2017 19:00
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yall are tremendous loving marks if you think standing up for the rights of people like Milo is in any way going to be reciprocated or respected.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:03
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paranoid randroid posted:yall are tremendous loving marks if you think standing up for the rights of people like Milo is in any way going to be reciprocated or respected. It's more that Milo is a paid agent provocateur so good job giving him exactly what he wants by attacking unarmed Trump supporters and ATMs.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:05
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Trabisnikof posted:It's more that Milo is a paid agent provocateur so good job giving him exactly what he wants by attacking unarmed Trump supporters and ATMs. People should not be blamed for reacting against hatred.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:08
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https://twitter.com/LydiaBurrell/status/827023244628738049
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Feb 2, 2017 19:09
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Chelb posted:People should not be blamed for reacting against hatred. Yes they should? Just because someone nearby is trying to give a hate speech doesn't give you a free pass to smash random windows.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:10
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Sorry for skipping to the last page but can someone help me understand why the California Dems are so lovely on criminal justice and prison reform issues? The fact that Prop 47 had to be approved by the public over opposition from Dems in a "progressive" state with a bad prison overcrowding problem seems odd to me.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:11
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Trabisnikof posted:It's more that Milo is a paid agent provocateur so good job giving him exactly what he wants by attacking unarmed Trump supporters and ATMs. Because Milo thinks that he is going to start a riot or race war with this poo poo. His strategy, on a micro scale, is this: I'm a white guy and walk into a bar and insult a minority, the theory being that a) if nobody does anything then I just grandstanded hate to a bunch of people, made the minority look weak, made myself appealing and strong, or b) if the minority/his friends punches me in the face a fellow whitey will come to my defense due to our bonds of white brotherhood. I'm gonna go with c) punch him in the face, nobody will actually come to his defense, after this happens 4 - 5 times he'll be exposed for what he is: a disgusting little simp with no real support who can't defend himself in the real world and can only spit mean words online. THAT'S what makes him a joke - not respectfully nodding and stroking your chin while he walks into liberal strongholds and spits in their faces. Politics. Is. About. Power. Those garbage Berkley Republicans did this as a "gently caress you" to the entire campus, and they just got publicly cornholed. Good.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:14
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MaxxBot posted:Sorry for skipping to the last page but can someone help me understand why the California Dems are so lovely on criminal justice and prison reform issues? The fact that Prop 47 had to be approved by the public over opposition from Dems in a "progressive" state with a bad prison overcrowding problem seems odd to me. Pretty sure the Democratic Party endorsed in favor of Prop 47
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Feb 2, 2017 19:16
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Trabisnikof posted:Yes they should? Just because someone nearby is trying to give a hate speech doesn't give you a free pass to smash random windows. So why should protestors have restrictions like "don't break windows" placed on them when the modern day rightist movements and their hateful progenitors have spent their whole existences endorsing genocide, murder, physical and verbal violence, bigotry? At what point do you stop thinking of yourself as the calm and collected onlooker to these shameful rioters and consider violence like this to be an outcry of rage and of self-defense against generations of institutionally tolerated abuse? Why do you seem to care more about windows than the people who broke them?
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Feb 2, 2017 19:17
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MaxxBot posted:Sorry for skipping to the last page but can someone help me understand why the California Dems are so lovely on criminal justice and prison reform issues? The fact that Prop 47 had to be approved by the public over opposition from Dems in a "progressive" state with a bad prison overcrowding problem seems odd to me. police and correctional officer unions are a heckuva thing
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Feb 2, 2017 19:17
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Trabisnikof posted:Pretty sure the Democratic Party endorsed in favor of Prop 47 I thought Jerry Brown opposed it but now I can't find anything on it. Either way the changes made seem like things that should easily be able to pass a Dem supermajority legislature and by the outcome of the vote weren't even that controversial.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:22
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Chelb posted:So why should protestors have restrictions like "don't break windows" placed on them when the modern day rightist movements and their hateful progenitors have spent their whole existences endorsing genocide, murder, physical and verbal violence, bigotry? At what point do you stop thinking of yourself as the calm and collected onlooker to these shameful rioters and consider violence like this to be an outcry of rage and of self-defense against generations of institutionally tolerated abuse? You keep going back to decorum and I don't give a gently caress about it. If you're trying to fight Milo and his ilk, playing into his hands isn't how you do it. I don't care how cathartic attacking an ATM feels because poo poo is too important to make decisions based on what will make people some protester personally feel a little better without changing things. Yes, it is a lot harder to use restraint when your opposition is goading you, but that's a critical lesson for successful resistance movements.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:24
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MaxxBot posted:Sorry for skipping to the last page but can someone help me understand why the California Dems are so lovely on criminal justice and prison reform issues? The fact that Prop 47 had to be approved by the public over opposition from Dems in a "progressive" state with a bad prison overcrowding problem seems odd to me. California is plenty racist. Nakedly so outside of the cities, but plenty in bougie white ways inside them. I like the Raiders for instance. I'm regularly shocked by how many people are suprised that I could like them and also be a white guy. "You're a Raider fan? But you can read!" etc, etc..
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Feb 2, 2017 19:24
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Trabisnikof posted:You keep going back to decorum and I don't give a gently caress about it. If you're trying to fight Milo and his ilk, playing into his hands isn't how you do it. I don't care how cathartic attacking an ATM feels because poo poo is too important to make decisions based on what will make people some protester personally feel a little better without changing things. What you call "playing into his hands," I call "expressing an individual's agency." It's a shame that rules and conduct (rules and conduct pushed by white folk to protect themselves from feeling any meaningful consequence for their actions) matter to you more than identifying with the plights of oppressed people.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:30
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Chelb posted:What you call "playing into his hands," I call "expressing an individual's right and agency." It's a shame that rules and conduct (rules and conduct pushed by white folk to protect themselves from feeling any meaningful consequence for their actions) matter to you more than identifying with the plights of oppressed people. I recognize the fact that destroying ATMs when you get angry at Milo doesn't actually help the plight of oppressed people. And in this case, probably makes things worse.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:31
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Give me your strategies, then. Tell me what to do, oh savior of minorities, who will lead them from the error of their ways!
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Feb 2, 2017 19:34
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Trabisnikof posted:I recognize the fact that destroying ATMs when you get angry at Milo doesn't actually help the plight of oppressed people. And in this case, probably makes things worse. If somebody isn't going to stand up against racism and sexism because of an ATM, they probably weren't going to do poo poo either way.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:35
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Trabisnikof posted:Yes they should? Just because someone nearby is trying to give a hate speech doesn't give you a free pass to smash random windows. There's no such thing as property crimes, hth, nazi defender~ (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 2, 2017 19:36
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I am desperately tired of the paternalism that leads people sitting at their computers to tell victims how they're not allowed to make their anger physically manifest.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:38
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Trabisnikof posted:I recognize the fact that destroying ATMs when you get angry at Milo doesn't actually help the plight of oppressed people. And in this case, probably makes things worse. Go gently caress off to Gstaad with Muffy, you 1% swine. Seriously, what is this poo poo? "Won't somebody please think of the property  ?"quote:The oppressor cannot understand the simple fact that people want to be free. So, when a man resists oppression, they pass it off by calling him ‘crazy’ or ‘insane.'
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Feb 2, 2017 19:43
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Chelb posted:Give me your strategies, then. Tell me what to do, oh savior of minorities, who will lead them from the error of their ways! Maybe be like the 1000+ protesters at Berkeley protesting rather than the ~100 odd black bloc idiots? stone cold posted:There's no such thing as property crimes, hth, nazi defender~ Right? So if they'd burned down a UC building that'd be fine, since the UC deserved it for inviting Milo, obviously. I'm just unclear about how much third party property damage is okay, like next time can we burn down a Starbucks?
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Feb 2, 2017 19:43
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Chelb posted:Give me your strategies, then. Tell me what to do, oh savior of minorities, who will lead them from the error of their ways! This is about dictators and coups but the data is still revealing: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/11/05/peaceful-protest-is-much-more-effective-than-violence-in-toppling-dictators/ This is more broad: https://www.fastcoexist.com/3040831/world-changing-ideas/peaceful-protest-slow-and-steady-is-winning-the-race-to-create-change Despite the just-so stories promulgated in this thread, there is no evidence that violence is more effective than nonviolence as a tool of protest and method for advancing social causes. The evidence that nonviolence is effective is strong. The entire movement to legitimize and normalize gay marriage has rested on almost entirely nonviolent protests and despite setbacks from time to time, the arc of change from the 1980s to today is remarkable. Students at a university ought to be the first ones to embrace the academic study and evidence based on outcomes, surely?
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Feb 2, 2017 19:45
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In a fair and just world people who contribute to a harassment campaign that causes direct physical harm to people are punished. In a fair and just world people who cause serious property damage are also punished. The first thing didn't happen. Therefore counting on established authority figures is sketchy at best. Might as well go outside with a sign and yell at everyone until they listen because every other vehicle for justice has failed
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Feb 2, 2017 19:46
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One of Milo's supporters shot a guy and nobody cared. It was around a week ago. Jesus.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:47
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DarklyDreaming posted:The first thing didn't happen. Therefore counting on established authority figures is sketchy at best. Might as well go outside with a sign and yell at everyone until they listen because every other vehicle for justice has failed Nobody in this thread is suggesting that people shouldn't protest. They absolutely should. One of the key advantages of nonviolent protest is that it attracts far more protestors; far fewer people are willing to turn up if they anticipate that violence will take place, than if they anticipate that the protest will remain peaceful. And, peaceful protest appears to be more effective. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:One of Milo's supporters shot a guy and nobody cared. It was around a week ago. Jesus. If literally nobody cared, how did you even hear about it?
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Feb 2, 2017 19:50
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Trabisnikof posted:Maybe be like the 1000+ protesters at Berkeley protesting rather than the ~100 odd black bloc idiots? quote:I'm nonviolent with those who are nonviolent with me. But when you drop that violence on me, then you've made me go insane, and I'm not responsible for what I do. And that's the way every Negro should get. Any time you know you're within the law, within your legal rights, within your moral rights, in accord with justice, then die for what you believe in. But don't die alone. Let your dying be reciprocal. This is what is meant by equality. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:52
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