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Kokoro Wish posted:The big issue is that once article 50 is triggered and the democratic decision of the referendum is put into action, we get the best deal possible at the negotiations over the next two years. Article 50 is just the beginning and probably most minor step of the process. Ok and where do labour's 'red lines' come into it?
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Feb 4, 2017 09:27
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Pissflaps posted:
He wants our offer to come back to parliament as 'regularly' as negotiationa play out. I don't necessarily think that strategy will work, at least not without a more serious Conservative split. I just thought it was a good line. Appeases leave voters and shows intention to stick heels in on the detail. It was clear, you have to remember people don't understand this process, get into detail and you're sunk. His line about a Crossrail of the North has also stuck. Zalakwe fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 09:42
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I have a band now. We're pretty cool. https://soundcloud.com/user-365559034/sets/23012017a
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Feb 4, 2017 09:42
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^^ Thanks for sharing.  A nationwide block has come into force on Trump's travel ban, so if you were previously booted out with a valid visa you can now get on a plane again. Unless the government obtains an emergency stay before you land, in which case you'll be turned away again. What a loving shitshow.
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Feb 4, 2017 10:59
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Plus you know if you have been previously turned away, try to go back this time and have the stay overturned while you're in the air you run the risk of a five year ban from the States.
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Feb 4, 2017 12:10
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Pissflaps posted:If Corbyn doesn't lose the election personally Labour will be haunted by 'Corbyn would have won' types.
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Feb 4, 2017 12:39
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Irony Be My Shield posted:But that only makes sense if you're saying that nobody else could win the election for Labour. Surely actually winning is more important than proving a point to people on the internet who you don't like? I don't hold any animosity towards anybody in this thread, and even if I did it certainly wouldn't shape my political views. I think too much damage has been done for anyone to turn it around in time to win the next election. It's better that Corbyn is humiliated at the polls so that he and his supporters gently caress off and leave running the Labour Party to the grown ups. If he slopes off now he'll cast a shadow over labour for far longer.
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Feb 4, 2017 12:51
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Pissflaps posted:I don't hold any animosity towards anybody in this thread, and even if I did it certainly wouldn't shape my political views. It's far more likely that the Oxbridge up and comers and rich backers who all want personal influence rather than Labours founding principles will depart first while those with trade union links and socialists will stick it out for longer; certain MPs are already bailing. Labour might continue on if they get a Blair Mk II in style but as before, policy does matter and they're unlikely to come up with any winning combos.
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Feb 4, 2017 13:03
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The next Labour leader is coming from the Corbyn wing in any case. I don't think anyone who had a political career before 2015 is in with a shout so that's Starmer out. What you (in Labour) need to do is ensure you end up with someone like Lewis or Long-Bailey or Rayner rather than McDonnell or Abbott or that idiot Burgon. (As I say, I am no socialist, so I don't know whether any of those will actually satisfy Labour members.)
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Feb 4, 2017 13:06
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Here is a thought: maybe Labour should have a leader who appeals to the British electorate and not just party members?
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Feb 4, 2017 13:12
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Wheat Loaf posted:What you (in Labour) need to do is ensure you end up with someone like Lewis or Long-Bailey Those would suit me. But Corbyn has to hold out until we can change the PLP nomination requirement. (And if he holds out until Brexit is over, so that it can't tarnish his successor, so much the better.)
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Feb 4, 2017 13:13
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I think it's important that the party's MPs and its leader can get along, so I don't see why the PLP nomination should be ditched.
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Feb 4, 2017 13:14
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Comrade Cheggorsky posted:Here is a thought: maybe Labour should have a leader who appeals to the British electorate and not just party members? More nuanced: the few people who he appeals to joined he Labour Party to support him in his leadership elections. They don't necessarily support or vote for the Labour Party. jBrereton posted:I think it's important that the party's MPs and its leader can get along, so I don't see why the PLP nomination should be ditched. Labour should adopt the Tory leadership election process.
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Feb 4, 2017 13:16
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Comrade Cheggorsky posted:Here is a thought: maybe Labour should have a leader who appeals to the British electorate and not just party members? But the electorate is actually super lovely when it comes to things like economics, the environment and human rights? Much better to combine the electorates desires with sensible, sustainable policy and consistently argue for that rather than just nod along as someone who hasn't looked at the figures but heard we're giving all this money over to Africa for singing lessons when we can't afford BRIMSTONE MISSILES at home. Pissflaps posted:More nuanced: the few people who he appeals to joined he Labour Party to support him in his leadership elections. They don't necessarily support or vote for the Labour Party. As with Trump, putting a leader at the top trying to do things that the rest of the organisational structure is unprepared (if not actually unwilling) to do is extremely difficult. This is why socialism must come from below btw, there's no parliamentary road to it. namesake fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Feb 4, 2017 |
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Feb 4, 2017 13:18
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namesake posted:As with Trump, putting a leader at the top trying to do things that the rest of the organisational structure is unprepared (if not actually unwilling) to do is extremely difficult.
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Feb 4, 2017 13:25
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Comrade Cheggorsky posted:Here is a thought: maybe Labour should have a leader who appeals to the British electorate and not just party members? Surely "No compromise with the electorate" id the proudest of the Bennie principles. 
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Feb 4, 2017 13:27
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Pissflaps posted:More nuanced: the few people who he appeals to joined he Labour Party to support him in his leadership elections. They don't necessarily support or vote for the Labour Party.
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Feb 4, 2017 13:35
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ah yes what labour need to be is more like the tories
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Feb 4, 2017 13:35
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JFairfax posted:ah yes what labour need to be is more like the tories When it comes to leadership elections, absolutely. Not when it comes to European policy.
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Feb 4, 2017 13:37
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Comrade Cheggorsky posted:it certainly is more nuanced, i think its essential that the next Labour leader disregards the coalition of Lib Dem, SNP, and Green voters who have never supported Labour but paid £3 to vote for some old socialist jam man from Islington and shows them the door asap This guy gets it.
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Feb 4, 2017 13:39
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The Tories should have a leadership election more like Labour.
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Feb 4, 2017 13:42
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Guavanaut posted:The Tories should have a leadership election more like Labour.
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Feb 4, 2017 13:45
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Gove thinking he was capable of Machiavellian plotting will never not be hilarious.
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Feb 4, 2017 13:49
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jBrereton posted:They actually did just have a very Labour style leadership election, which is why Gove and BoJo aren't PM. This post couldn't be more inaccurate
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Feb 4, 2017 13:52
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i think it would be best for labour if they put away their childish notions of being a left wing party and let the grown ups run things
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Feb 4, 2017 13:53
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Pissflaps posted:Labour should adopt the Tory leadership election process. Do you not think it's slightly bad for democracy for nobody but MPs to get any say in what the two major parties are offering?
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Feb 4, 2017 13:57
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Cerv posted:This post couldn't be more inaccurate
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Feb 4, 2017 13:57
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jBrereton posted:Explain to me how two people who probably both had a decent shot at power completely loving themselves up wasn't the most student politicsy bollocks ever. The Conservative contest was nothing like the Labour contest (either of them). Only Con MPs got to vote, it never went to the members/ affiliates / £3 people off the street.
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Feb 4, 2017 14:00
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Wheat Loaf posted:The next Labour leader is coming from the Corbyn wing in any case. I don't think anyone who had a political career before 2015 is in with a shout so that's Starmer out. What you (in Labour) need to do is ensure you end up with someone like Lewis or Long-Bailey or Rayner rather than McDonnell or Abbott or that idiot Burgon. Starmer was part of the 2015 intake - he was a QC/director of public prosecutions before going into politics.
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Feb 4, 2017 14:00
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jabby posted:Do you not think it's slightly bad for democracy for nobody but MPs to get any say in what the two major parties are offering? Tory members vote for the final two candidates nominated by their MPs.
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Feb 4, 2017 14:17
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Except for when they don't.
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Feb 4, 2017 14:20
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Labour don't have a vote if there's only one candidate either.
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Feb 4, 2017 14:23
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Cerv posted:The Conservative contest was nothing like the Labour contest (either of them).
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Feb 4, 2017 14:38
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I sorta agree that the idealised way things should work is that the membership should have some say, maybe, in the selection of the MPs but the MPs should just pick the party leader. US style voting for the party leader really only makes sense when the leader has some inherent power as a president or whatever, but the party leader's power derives only from the loyalty of his MPs. A more effective leader than Corbyn would be great, but it's a bit much to expect even the best leader to drag an unwilling parliament kicking and screaming along - not when the MPs owe their positions to an altogether different process and appeals to their home constituent. This might result in more right wing candidates for a while, yes, but maybe there would be a benefit that the PLP would own the consequences and perhaps learn from their mistakes. At this point the party leader is just gonna be a big huge scapegoat.
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Feb 4, 2017 14:44
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jBrereton posted:In spirit, it was. How?
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Feb 4, 2017 14:53
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jabby posted:Do you not think it's slightly bad for democracy for nobody but MPs to get any say in what the two major parties are offering? We thankfully don't have a presidential system, and I'd prefer to keep it that way than try to emulate one
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Feb 4, 2017 14:54
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Cerv posted:We thankfully don't have a presidential system, and I'd prefer to keep it that way than try to emulate one How are you posting from back in the 1970s
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Feb 4, 2017 15:02
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We currently have a hodgepodge between presidential and parliamentary systems with some of the worst aspects of both.
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Feb 4, 2017 15:04
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MrL_JaKiri posted:We currently have a hodgepodge between presidential and parliamentary systems with some of the worst aspects of both. Sure but I think fundamentally the electorate is voting for the MP (or at least the party) and the party gets zero power if they don't win seats. It's not like the US where the candidate can win while the parliamentary party loses and that counts as a partial win.
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Feb 4, 2017 15:09
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Fangz posted:Sure but I think fundamentally the electorate is voting for the MP (or at least the party) and the party gets zero power if they don't win seats. It's not like the US where the candidate can win while the parliamentary party loses and that counts as a partial win. The electorate is literally voting for their MP and only their MP but people are voting as if they are in a presidential election. This has a lot of really bad consequences and is part of the reason why the House of Commons is so full of rubbish former SPADs (and the like)
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Feb 4, 2017 15:16
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