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Roland Jones posted:Yeah, it's kind of amazing how big California is. Our economy alone is bigger than most other countries' too. Not that we are likely to let you leave even if you left alone, but there's no way in hell we're giving you all those nukes in Nevada.
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Feb 6, 2017 06:45
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Roland Jones posted:He wants to do it "within the next few months". He's trying to get his attention and outrage now and hope that his thing gets blocked or something again before the speech actually happens, maybe get another protest or something that can be used to claim that the left are the real bigots or whatever, and not actually have to do anything. And if he does have to go, great, he can rant for an hour and doxx a bunch of students in the hopes that people will call ICE on them. Or he can just make up another excuse to not go and blame that on liberals instead. I wish he'd be allowed to come back and the students who were protesting instead go and just completely fill the auditorium and watch stonefaced as no one cares about what he says, and if they take notes on who the people he talks about are, it's to make sure they're okay later. It's much harder to be a racist shithead when everyone around you hears what you say and doesn't rally around it at all.
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Feb 6, 2017 06:47
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Not that we are likely to let you leave even if you left alone, but there's no way in hell we're giving you all those nukes in Nevada. Well, yeah. I don't think anyone's taking the idea seriously at this point.
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Feb 6, 2017 06:57
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Roland Jones posted:Well, obviously. The secession scenario we were working from was "the country's so hosed up they can't stop us and also staying would screw us over too", which is both incredibly unlikely and one of the few ways to get around the "secession is legally impossible and always has been (despite it happening being one of our country's biggest historical moments)" thing. Secession is absolutely possible, you would just have to get the consent of Congress, or perhaps a Constitutional amendment. Unlikely, sure, but not impossible.
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Feb 6, 2017 07:02
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Secession is absolutely possible, you would just have to get the consent of Congress, or perhaps a Constitutional amendment. Unlikely, sure, but not impossible. Did you forget about that war we fought to decide if states could secede or something? There's no way in poo poo they'd just let California leave for the same reasons they didn't let the South leave.
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Feb 6, 2017 07:03
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Did you forget about that war we fought to decide if states could secede or something? Their secession was illegitimate because they did so unilaterally.
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Feb 6, 2017 07:05
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I could see Donald getting on Twitter after California does the sanctuary state +/- other things to piss him off, and with his posturing of cutting off funding, eventually getting to, "California isn't a team player, we shouldn't let them hold us down." Then CA gov says, "sure, when can we leave?" mainly as a joke but basically calling what everyone assumes to be a bluff. But, since Donald can't back down (weak! Sad!) he just goes along with it and it ends up like Brexit where everyone's kinda confused about what's happening but well, things are happening I guess? Essentially unplanned and stumbled into.
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Feb 6, 2017 07:14
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HelloSailorSign posted:I could see Donald getting on Twitter after California does the sanctuary state +/- other things to piss him off, and with his posturing of cutting off funding, eventually getting to, "California isn't a team player, we shouldn't let them hold us down." I don't think that'd actually work but something that stupid resulting in us leaving the union would be perfect for the dumb, terrible reality we live in.
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Feb 6, 2017 07:25
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Roland Jones posted:I don't think that'd actually work but something that stupid resulting in us leaving the union would be perfect for the dumb, terrible reality we live in. Precisely.
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Feb 6, 2017 07:26
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I don't really buy the argument that California seceding would lead to civil war. There is not nearly as much ill-will between CA and the rest of the US as there was between the South and the North. There's nothing as divisive or horrible as slavery, there's no bleeding Kansas, there's no John Brown, etc. And secession without civil war is not exactly unheard of nowadays--Scotland almost did it a few years ago, and no one was thinking that the UK would invade them if they left. If California voted to secede the Republicans would have a choice between letting them go, and thus ensuring Republican dominance for at least another generation, or fighting a possibly-extremely-bloody civil war for no real benefit. I have a hard time thinking they would choose the latter.
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Feb 6, 2017 07:38
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CA leaving means the loss of 55 solidly Democrat electoral college votes and man if that wouldn't make the administration seriously consider it.
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Feb 6, 2017 07:41
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Man California loves to cut off its nose to spite its face.
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Feb 6, 2017 07:45
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Their secession was illegitimate because they did so unilaterally. Because they were forced to because the North wouldn't let them. Sound familiar? Economics will never allow for the US to just let go of the 6th largest economy in the world for no real reason. Saying that a California secession could happen is the same as saying a tornado could go through a junkyard and leave behind a fully functional boeing 747. Theoretically, yes, but really no way in hell it's gonna happen.
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Feb 6, 2017 07:53
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VikingofRock posted:I don't really buy the argument that California seceding would lead to civil war. There is not nearly as much ill-will between CA and the rest of the US as there was between the South and the North. There's nothing as divisive or horrible as slavery, there's no bleeding Kansas, there's no John Brown, etc. And secession without civil war is not exactly unheard of nowadays--Scotland almost did it a few years ago, and no one was thinking that the UK would invade them if they left. If California voted to secede the Republicans would have a choice between letting them go, and thus ensuring Republican dominance for at least another generation, or fighting a possibly-extremely-bloody civil war for no real benefit. I have a hard time thinking they would choose the latter. Losing one-eighth of your tax base seems like something most nations would fight pretty hard to prevent. Seriously the US economy would be crippled without California. You aren't building roads in Bumblefuck, Arkansas without those sweet Cali tax dollars. Edit: The post above mine said basically the same thing but better. Teach me to leave tabs open. Wicked Them Beats fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Feb 6, 2017 |
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Feb 6, 2017 08:02
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Also, to be clear, I'm not saying California would come out of it smelling like roses. It would be a really horrible period of time for everyone involved and no one really wins but putin. I'm just saying the likelihood of it actually happening is essentially zero, outside of some pretty severe unforeseeable events.
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Feb 6, 2017 08:06
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Wait now we're seriously discussing CalExit again. Dangit, I thought we already agreed it was a bad and dumb idea and only discussed it as a joke now, for these and other reasons.
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Feb 6, 2017 08:15
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We need hollywood to remake the dukes of hazzard, but set in southern california with the bear and star on the roof of a porsche, and they run meth instead of moonshine.
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Feb 6, 2017 08:19
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Litany Unheard posted:Losing one-eighth of your tax base seems like something most nations would fight pretty hard to prevent. I mean, Scotland is 1/12th of the UK's GDP. It's not like that is orders of magnitude different. And a civil war would definitely be much, much worse for the US economy than letting California leave in peace.
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Feb 6, 2017 08:34
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Roland Jones posted:Wait now we're seriously discussing CalExit again. Dangit, I thought we already agreed it was a bad and dumb idea and only discussed it as a joke now, for these and other reasons. Now that donald has painted us "outta control" and demands to rein us in calexit seems like it will get more people (stupid people, not like the people who think it's an absure gesture) talking http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-trump-bill-to-make-california-a-1486330796-htmlstory.html i love each and every one of you rn for continuing to undermine our president spicy hot cheeto.
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Feb 6, 2017 08:36
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All this posturing about California's federal funding is just happy vapors for his base. If they actually pulled that "tremendous amount of money" away, wait'll he sees what happens to the federal government when California stops sending money back. It's simply starting a fight they can't afford to win.
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Feb 6, 2017 08:49
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VikingofRock posted:I mean, Scotland is 1/12th of the UK's GDP. It's not like that is orders of magnitude different. And a civil war would definitely be much, much worse for the US economy than letting California leave in peace. Yeah but they have a very different situation over there with the EU and the relative autonomy Scotland already has (I don't know much about UK politics so correct me if I'm wrong here). Also California has an economy ten times the size of Scotland and also California grows LITERALLY ALL THE FOOD http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...at_without.html quote:California produces a sizable majority of many American fruits, vegetables, and nuts: 99 percent of artichokes, 99 percent of walnuts, 97 percent of kiwis, 97 percent of plums, 95 percent of celery, 95 percent of garlic, 89 percent of cauliflower, 71 percent of spinach, and 69 percent of carrots (and the list goes on and on). A hypothetical Calexit would be catastrophic for the greater US. And I hope people keep talking about this topic because I want to see Trump tweet angrily about it.
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Feb 6, 2017 08:54
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Craptacular! posted:All this posturing about California's federal funding is just happy vapors for his base. If they actually pulled that "tremendous amount of money" away, wait'll he sees what happens to the federal government when California stops sending money back. I'm entirely pumped up on 90s west coast rap rn so they should pull the trigger on that asap.
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Feb 6, 2017 09:00
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Craptacular! posted:All this posturing about California's federal funding is just happy vapors for his base. If they actually pulled that "tremendous amount of money" away, wait'll he sees what happens to the federal government when California stops sending money back. Litany Unheard posted:California grows LITERALLY ALL THE FOOD
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Feb 6, 2017 09:21
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If you're really serious about this secession bullshit then why don't you just move to California: The Country e: sp Progressive JPEG fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Feb 6, 2017 |
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Feb 6, 2017 09:23
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80% of California's water comes from California. There would be some conflict over the Colorado river, so SoCal would struggle. This, combined with the presumed loss of military installations would make San Diego a lot less viable place to live. But even then, America needs California agriculture more than California needs American water. Agriculture makes up a very small (though culturally important) part of California's economy. .svg/350px-Gross_Domestic_Product_of_California_2008_(millions_of_current_dollars).svg.png) Now, there are a lot of items on that pie chart where leaving the US would hurt California bigly. However, if Trump decides to gently caress with us, it would also hurt us bigly.
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Feb 6, 2017 09:29
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Dead Reckoning posted:You realize this isn't how it works, right? Congress could halve or zero the money going to CA tomorrow, (except the farm subsidy, of course) and the IRS can still collect revenue from California citizens and businesses. Its why you file both state and federal income tax returns. The state government has no basis to impede this. What can the feds do to an entire state of renegade-no tax paying citizens? They couldn't possibly find and force the money out of each and every one of us, they can't direct the police to lock us up either. The state definitely won't open its coffers after the money stops. (I completely understand this is truly-cooky fringe discussions)
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Feb 6, 2017 09:36
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I also find it hard to believe, as an Oregonian, that any exit of California wouldn't result in Oregon and Washington fleeing right after, holding onto California's coattails. While California might be pressed for water without the Colorado river, those two states together should have more than enough water resources to make up the shortfall.
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Feb 6, 2017 10:21
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incoherent posted:What can the feds do to an entire state of renegade-no tax paying citizens? They couldn't possibly find and force the money out of each and every one of us, they can't direct the police to lock us up either. The state definitely won't open its coffers after the money stops. The problem is that the whole state wouldn't really stop paying taxes. Large national and multinational businesses based in CA would need to hedge on the US federal government winning and couldn't simply tell the IRS to gently caress off. The most likely outcome is that a lot of those businesses would just leave the state altogether once the situation became legitimately unstable, because there's no situation where doing business in just CA is more appealing than staying on good terms with the rest of the US. That would end up removing a lot of CA's tax base and further reducing whatever bargaining position they might have. Like, the real problem with these hypotheticals is that they're just so far outside the realm of possibility that it's hard to predict. CA couldn't leave a US as economically powerful as the US that exists right now and it's hard to imagine a situation that brings the rest of the country down while leaving CA intact and both capable and willing to break away. You'd really need some total breakdown where other major economic centers are trying to secede as wel.
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Feb 6, 2017 10:57
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Because they were forced to because the North wouldn't let them. Sound familiar? No, it doesn't sound familiar at all, because at no point did the South attempt to pass secession through Congress, as they asserted that they had a right to do so unilaterally.
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Feb 6, 2017 13:43
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incoherent posted:What can the feds do to an entire state of renegade-no tax paying citizens? They couldn't possibly find and force the money out of each and every one of us, they can't direct the police to lock us up either. The state definitely won't open its coffers after the money stops. As a Freeman on the land, I want to expand on this idea. There are already a lot of natural born citizens who choose not to pay their taxes because they don't have to. If anything, the government owes us money. Critical mass has been building for a while now. This is especially true in the pseudo-state of Jefferson, which I assume the newly independent California will cater to since that is where all the real work gets done in the state.
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Feb 6, 2017 17:15
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Jefferson gets to be the new federal district of the nation of Pacifica.
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Feb 6, 2017 17:31
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I just want a central government that focuses on both coasts instead of just the east. 
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Feb 6, 2017 17:40
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I dunno, the question is whether Jefferson is more bitter toward the feds or the state. Maybe it's obvious, but since I don't really know anyone north of Redding, and all the Central Valley ag people I know are more of the latter, I doubt they would concede to being governed by body that would increase their taxes even more. I suspect, if anything, that were CA to attempt secession, the civil war would be fought only between Californians. Anyone care to guess which Californians are military families and spend their weekends killing birds?
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Feb 6, 2017 18:30
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Don't worry, Soldr will allow us to easily hire private soldiers as necessary on a per-battle basis.
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Feb 6, 2017 18:37
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The Wiggly Wizard posted:I dunno, the question is whether Jefferson is more bitter toward the feds or the state. as someone from modesto i predict my fellow central valleyians will either hate the concept of the federal government more or not give a poo poo and go back to drinking away the pain of living in the valley
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Feb 6, 2017 18:41
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I'm on whatever side is against your app because of the way it undermines the ability for mercenaries to collectively bargain.
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Feb 6, 2017 18:50
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We're disrupting the inefficient governmental military market. Have you seen how inefficient the government-run military is? Besides, this is more of a "gig" rather than a career, so while some of the pay and perks might not be as much as it would be for a more traditional soldier, it provides a good way for housewives to earn some extra money while the kids are away at school. It's about providing opportunity and making use of the surplus labor we have right now.
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Feb 6, 2017 18:55
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The Wiggly Wizard posted:I dunno, the question is whether Jefferson is more bitter toward the feds or the state. They're also the ones who constantly bitch about California so I imagine they would just gently caress off to Texas or whatever.
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Feb 6, 2017 19:00
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In a putative secession, are we imagining total trade blockade between the new CA and the remainder of the US? I doubt it. The creation of a new Californian nation would instantly create the US's most important trading partner. A trade embargo would suggest a nonconsensual exit, and we've already discussed what happens in that scenario. So the questions of resources and products - farm products, water, power needs, etc - are mostly moot and not the real issues. We would sell surpluses and buy shortages just like we already do, but across an international border instead of a state border. The real issues are that CA is in no way prepared to be an autonomous nation, a Calexit would be monumentally disruptive and disastrous for the economy of both countries, any particular solution to citizenship you'd care to name will have serious problems, and of course most of all, almost no Californians want to do it. Trump's administration can't last more than eight years and that's not enough time to develop a consensus to leave. By comparison I'd guess it's far more likely Trump lasts less than 4 years, than that California's voters reach a point in less than eight that they'd majority-vote for secession.
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Feb 6, 2017 19:01
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FCKGW posted:They're also the ones who constantly bitch about California so I imagine they would just gently caress off to Texas or whatever. Purely anecdotal but- I saw equal time complaining about Obama and ARE WATER. These days they focus all of their energy on trying to turn the delta into a salty desert.
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Feb 6, 2017 19:23
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