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Anticheese posted:It's a cookbook! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxI7B758XBQ
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Feb 9, 2017 23:09
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GunnerJ posted:Jesus Christ, that's so sick. Like you could have eaten them as non-sentient creatures (maybe??), but nooo, you took the time to raise them up to self-awareness while indoctrinating them into believing that you, their gods, have given them the special and holy mission of being your food. Now they know what happening to them, they know and have been brainwashed or engineered into accepting it. This is the only proper state for alien races to exist 
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Feb 9, 2017 23:11
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Coolguye posted:terraforming makes sense from an economic point of view regardless because it removes all blockers on the planet. many planets spawn with at least 6 blockers and larger planets can have as many as 15. at ~100 days apiece you are frequently looking at between 2 and 4 years just to clear off the planet - and since construction can't happen while clearing is going on, that time is simply lost to your pops planet side. not to mention the minerals you also expend clearing blockers. Unless you have a giant migration wave sweeping in to fill out your planet, you basically end up having to wait for 5 pops already, and after you build a frontier clinic nothing is really on the "vital" build list. Combine this with a single leader with improved tile clearing and you can easily clear the tiles off a planet before you're upgrading the main building. Even with an adaptive rapid breeder and the +food/growth influence booster I still can clear out the blockers without delaying the colony. I find that it is much more often I have a mineral surplus than an energy one, so paying a premium for energy spend isn't a fair trade at all. For reference the tile blocker clearing leader is a -25% cost/time, and each level a leader has is another -6%. So level 1 is only 69 days per tile, and gets down to 45 days once he gets to level 5. If you value your minerals at 2-1 per energy, a level 2 leader clears roughly 10 tiles for 1000 energy in 630 days. At level 5 that leader clears almost 15 tiles for 1000 energy in 675 days. Your trade-off on a 15-tile blocker planet with a level 2 leader and both terraforming gasses is 500 energy for 5 years of pop growth and 855 days of building other poo poo. I guess that was a lot of words to say that you don't tend to save money by terraforming, and you always lose building time and pop growth time. Your only real benefit is +hab, and it is probably the most expensive way to get it, but research wise one of the earliest and doesn't rely on luck to spawn aliens to absorb.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:13
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ZypherIM posted:Unless you have a giant migration wave sweeping in to fill out your planet, you basically end up having to wait for 5 pops already, and after you build a frontier clinic nothing is really on the "vital" build list. as a matter of fact i made a post about this a bit ago: Coolguye posted:Is it possible to have a setting for sectors that basically tells them "for the love of gently caress do not let the Empire run in the red on energy"? As the game gets big the player is increasingly reliant on sectors for economy, and dependent on migration patterns and what my governor has had for breakfast that day my taxes can fluctuate by a couple hundred energy a month. This is a really rude surprise when i'm running at +40 and mount a major naval campaign, only for it to go to -250 the day after my fleet enters the wormhole. I've seen this happen a couple of times now. Aggressive terraforming has meant that i'm kind of in a spot where my planets never quite fill up, and for whatever reason my pops are migrating a lot in my game. There's been a handful of times when 2-3 pops move around on about a dozen worlds in a single month and it leaves a lot of power hubs and power plants unstaffed. It wouldn't be a gigantic problem if i could move pops around and basically tell them to short science in favor of staffing the power plants but with 50+ colonies under my sector's control it's just not feasible for me to revoke, micromanage, and repatriate on that level. i've come to notice since then that new planets have VERY high migration attraction. terraformed planets in my current game never have the chance to grow more than one, maybe two of their own pops before the planet fills up. this is without using Land of Opportunity or anything like that, this actively took me off guard and actively caused me problems the migration attraction was so goddamn high and i was founding so many colonies at once. it basically takes 18 months for one of my terraformed planets to receive the immigrants and then i'm upgrading the planetary governing building. pessimistically, inside of 2 years i am building something real with these colonies. this is actually way better for my empire in the long term since the new planet can fill up quick and i now have half a dozen planets growing pops instead of just one. also pretty megalol at spending the influence and leader cap on a governor specifically for clearing tile blockers. i wish that was my biggest problem in a game, and not trying to keep economies and wars rolling properly.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:28
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Roland Jones posted:So if psionics is now Spiritualist-only, is the cyborg path going to be Materialist-only? That makes genetics the "neutral" ascension path and what everyone else does, I guess. I mean you don't need to "ascend", there's still deep space engineering and all that good poo poo.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:29
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Roland Jones posted:So if psionics is now Spiritualist-only, is the cyborg path going to be Materialist-only? That makes genetics the "neutral" ascension path and what everyone else does, I guess. Yeah, the apparent ethics requirements for psionics or cybernetics are kind of annoying, since it feels like you should always be one of the two in order to get the most out of the game. Same way that in the current state you really want to be either Collectivist or Individualist, and not neither, since Ethics Divergence is such a big deal. That said I wouldn't want to open up psionics to everyone either, it felt kinda silly in my last game as a Fanatic Materialist where I managed to get a Maniacal scientist right away and then popped into the Psionics tech tree really early.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:29
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I like turning all habitable planets in the galaxy into one type. Once my species ascends future races can
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Feb 9, 2017 23:30
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PittTheElder posted:That said I wouldn't want to open up psionics to everyone either, it felt kinda silly in my last game as a Fanatic Materialist where I managed to get a Maniacal scientist right away and then popped into the Psionics tech tree really early. my feeling is that it owns v hard
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Feb 9, 2017 23:30
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Yeah, I wish everything was more or less open to everyone, just not as useful for certain styles. You could go for psy poo poo as materialists but you'd be fighting an uphill battle and be losing opportunity costs you could be putting into more suitable investments. I rather things be more soft locked than hard, where you can still do them but it's very non-optimal.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:32
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PittTheElder posted:Yeah, the apparent ethics requirements for psionics or cybernetics are kind of annoying, since it feels like you should always be one of the two in order to get the most out of the game. Same way that in the current state you really want to be either Collectivist or Individualist, and not neither, since Ethics Divergence is such a big deal. I'm fine with this, since you can still build robots without cybridizing yourself. Still, I hope one day we can actually start as a cybernetic/robotic race. I have some nice spiderbot pictures prepared just in case. Though they don't work really well if they're just normal spiders for most of the game until they can finally ascend. 
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Feb 9, 2017 23:36
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah, I wish everything was more or less open to everyone, just not as useful for certain styles. You could go for psy poo poo as materialists but you'd be fighting an uphill battle and be losing opportunity costs you could be putting into more suitable investments. I agree, the mishmash of technology, psionics, and deep space weirdness was what made Sword of the Stars interesting. Psionics affected most races (to various degrees) and were a major mechanic of conflict with the ascended space dolphin darth vader / C'tan equivalents. A different way to say it is I'm ok with there being generic ways to advance your species during the campaign that are open to everyone, as long as it has corresponding reactions from people with similar / opposite ideologies.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:37
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you can dance in and out of various ethics now and keep the various benefits, i really would not worry about your ability to do crazy crap
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Feb 9, 2017 23:38
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Coolguye posted:you can dance in and out of various ethics now and keep the various benefits, i really would not worry about your ability to do crazy crap ?? It's nice when Paradox soft locks options instead of hard locks them and I'm simply agreeing with the guy who said the same thing.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:39
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yes.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:41
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah, I wish everything was more or less open to everyone, just not as useful for certain styles. You could go for psy poo poo as materialists but you'd be fighting an uphill battle and be losing opportunity costs you could be putting into more suitable investments. Soft locking tends to make everything feel very samey. I think people actually like hard locks a lot more than they think they do because they create clear, distinct choices and playstyles. People praise the different FTL styles in SotS but they would never have worked as well if any race could choose any FTL rather it coming along with their other advantages and disadvantages.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:44
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I'd be cool if non-psionics could enact laws against psionics to limit their powers, persecute them, force them to serve or just enslave them and so on. Settings for anyone who has them regardless of species. You could get access to psionic pops if you let them immigrate too. Hmmm, would those powers affect their taste? Or you could make them utilize their "gifts" for entertainment or butler services as part of slavery.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:45
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Basically, "Do I want psionics or robots" is a clear, interesting choice that will shape the rest of that playthrough. "Do I want some robots and some psionics but maybe a little more towards robots except I'll also go a little into biology..." is the kind of thing that makes every playthrough feekl the same.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:47
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Wiz posted:Soft locking tends to make everything feel very samey. I think people actually like hard locks a lot more than they think they do because they create clear, distinct choices and playstyles. People praise the different FTL styles in SotS but they would never have worked as well if any race could choose any FTL rather it coming along with their other advantages and disadvantages. Well, I'm in favor of clear, distinct choices and playstyles. I would like to see more of that in the game. A more organic reason for the conflict (of ideologies, ways of existence), and more distinct playthroughs for each one seem like a win. I guess if that translates hard locking psionics to make them more distinct then I'm ok with it. I just want playthroughs of Stellaris to feel far more different than they currently do.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:48
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Poil posted:I'd be cool if non-psionics could enact laws against psionics to limit their powers, persecute them, force them to serve or just enslave them and so on. Settings for anyone who has them regardless of species. me: 
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Feb 9, 2017 23:49
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Keep in mind you'll also be able to change empire ethics in Banks so if you decide that robots aren't for you after all and you'd actually like some space magic, you can work to turn your empire spiritualist. It's just that you can't do that and also keep your robots.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:50
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Wiz posted:Soft locking tends to make everything feel very samey. I think people actually like hard locks a lot more than they think they do because they create clear, distinct choices and playstyles. I think I just see stuff based ethos/culture as so flexible and open to interpretation that it's better suited to soft locks, while biological traits like being a lithovore or physic or a hive mind make more sense for hard locks. Perhaps your religion sees cybernetics and being uploaded into a huge cyber-brain as the ultimate spiritual transcendence, flesh is a distraction and weak while silicon is pure and closer to god. Maybe your materialists discover the shroud and see it as yet another phenomenon to study and exploit. Science poking where it doesn't belong and opening a gate to hell or what ever is a big scify trope. It ends up feeling arbitrary and just "these are mutually exclusive because we think it's better" rather than having any real in-game reasoning. I can get spiritualists not being down with being uploaded into robots, they don't believe the "soul" transfers, they don't believe robots worthy of rights since true consciousness is more than material. I can buy that. But if psionics and the shroud are real phenomena it's just another thing to study for a materialist. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 23:50
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Something that seems like it would not fit into this formulation is the trope of psionic power being something that spontaneously manifests (or is perhaps an unintended consequence of some other technology) in various people, and society just has to Deal With It regardless of what it believes about spirit vs. matter overall.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:51
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Baronjutter posted:I think I just see stuff based ethos/culture as so flexible and open to interpretation that it's better suited to soft locks, while biological traits like being a lithovore or physic or a hive mind make more sense for hard locks. Perhaps your religion sees cybernetics and being uploaded into a huge cyber-brain as the ultimate spiritual transcendence, flesh is a distraction and weak while silicon is pure and closer to god. Maybe your materialists discover the shroud and see it as yet another phenomenon to study and exploit. Science poking where it doesn't belong and opening a gate to hell or what ever is a big scify trope. If ethics are that fluid they shouldn't even be a mechanic. Having a certain ethic or combination of ethics should say something about your empire.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:51
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Wiz posted:Keep in mind you'll also be able to change empire ethics in Banks so if you decide that robots aren't for you after all and you'd actually like some space magic, you can work to turn your empire spiritualist. It's just that you can't do that and also keep your robots. This sounds like actual reason to drive map politics and conflict. Along with much more interesting pop weirdness from the wrong kind of pops. Sounds promising.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:51
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Wiz posted:If ethics are that fluid they shouldn't even be a mechanic. Having a certain ethic or combination of ethics should say something about your empire. Yeah it makes sense when a spiritualist empire has strong ideas on what is a mind, what consciousness is and that can not include synths or uploading brains into robots. But what does a materialist have against researching a real phenomena ? Maybe they'd be less likely to discover it, but once it's clear it's a real thing and not mumbo jumbo?
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Feb 9, 2017 23:55
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Wiz posted:Of course. You can get an idea for some of them here. Re-reading this after some time off from the game, are any features intended to promote a 'Tall' (as opposed to 'Wide') playstyle making it into the next patch/expansion? Or is that still further down the line? Because one of my favorite things about the Civilization series is that you have the option of Tall vs Wide, even if in different editions one is a bit stronger than the other.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:59
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah it makes sense when a spiritualist empire has strong ideas on what is a mind, what consciousness is and that can not include synths or uploading brains into robots. But what does a materialist have against researching a real phenomena ? Maybe they'd be less likely to discover it, but once it's clear it's a real thing and not mumbo jumbo? I'm gonna go ahead and pull out my old chestnut from EU4: Realism is not a meaningful argument. You can always find something 'unrealistic' to punch a hole in any game mechanic with, so arguing about what is and isn't unrealistic is basically meaningless unless it's very clearly immersion-breaking for the player. From a mechanical standpoint it benefits Materialism and Spiritualism to have mutually exclusive features. Psionics fit well with Spiritualists so we give it to them. That's all there is to it.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:01
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CompeAnansi posted:Re-reading this after some time off from the game, are any features intended to promote a 'Tall' (as opposed to 'Wide') playstyle making it into the next patch/expansion? Or is that still further down the line? Because one of my favorite things about the Civilization series is that you have the option of Tall vs Wide, even if in different editions one is a bit stronger than the other. Habitats, Megastructures, Consumer Goods, other stuff.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:01
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah it makes sense when a spiritualist empire has strong ideas on what is a mind, what consciousness is and that can not include synths or uploading brains into robots. But what does a materialist have against researching a real phenomena ? Maybe they'd be less likely to discover it, but once it's clear it's a real thing and not mumbo jumbo? I think the idea here is the Shroud and similar phenomena are only real, or even findable, to spiritualists who research psionics. Think about this, if you need a good understanding of psionics to find something, materialists won't be able to detect it.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:03
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CompeAnansi posted:Re-reading this after some time off from the game, are any features intended to promote a 'Tall' (as opposed to 'Wide') playstyle making it into the next patch/expansion? Or is that still further down the line? Because one of my favorite things about the Civilization series is that you have the option of Tall vs Wide, even if in different editions one is a bit stronger than the other. Orbitals help there a bit. I've honestly never bought into the whole "tall vs wide" debate and how strategy games need them as two distinct and balanced playstyles. Tall should be a plan B for if you gently caress up on taking enough territory. It's great to have options to do both, but there doesn't need to be some sort of perfect balance between the two styles. I know when I play civ I always want to do both. I want my capital and main cities to be the tallest in the game, and I want to have the most land. I hate bing pigeon holed into picking one official "tall" or "wide" mutually exclusive optimal strategy.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:03
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Wiz posted:Keep in mind you'll also be able to change empire ethics in Banks so if you decide that robots aren't for you after all and you'd actually like some space magic, you can work to turn your empire spiritualist. It's just that you can't do that and also keep your robots. Something about this seems a bit backwards to me. I honestly feel like it would make more sense if discovering that psychic power might be real made a flip to Spiritualism more likely/easier. I'm not even really opposed to the hard limit being proposed here. It might be worth forgoing certain options for overall greater gameplay improvements. Maybe this all is better as mod material, idk. eta: If I were to do this as a mod, I'd probably make the seed for it be a pop that drifts to spiritualism having a random chance to get the Psionic trait, and sorta follow how the state responds to this development through events that would make flipping the empire to Spiritualist easier.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:04
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Libluini posted:I think the idea here is the Shroud and similar phenomena are only real, or even findable, to spiritualists who research psionics. Think about this, if you need a good understanding of psionics to find something, materialists won't be able to detect it. If you want a lore reason, it's more along the lines that you need a certain mindset to tap into The Shroud because of the way it mirrors concepts and beliefs in the material universe.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:05
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Wiz posted:If you want a lore reason, it's more along the lines that you need a certain mindset to tap into The Shroud because of the way it mirrors concepts and beliefs in the material universe. Yeah, that's what I thought too, I just had trouble wording it in English. 
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Feb 10, 2017 00:06
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Rakthar posted:This is really weird to me, like honestly. I can't tell the joke if it's a joke. Dietary terminology used apparently randomly.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:07
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GunnerJ posted:Something about this seems a bit backwards to me. I honestly feel like it would make more sense if discovering that psychic power might be real made a flip to Spiritualism more likely/easier. It does, actually. Having psychic techs/pops significantly boosts spiritualist attraction in your empire. I'm not completely dead set on locking out all psionics for non-spiritualists, but the ascension perks should definitely only be for them.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:07
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Baronjutter posted:Orbitals help there a bit. There is no plan to perfectly balance Tall and Wide, we just want options for when you either can't or don't want to expand aggressively. Somehow one of our QA managed to find a borderline overpowered playstyle with Fanatic Pacifist, Habitats and Megastructures the other day though, so Tall options are definitely there now.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:09
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If the Shroud exists outside of and separate from the material universe, then there's no indication within the material universe that it's out there to find, so there's no way for conventional science to find it. No matter how high you count, you won't be able to get to something if it isn't a number. Spiritualists, on the other hand, are all about doing things that have no knowable tangible benefit in the observable universe, so them being able to stumble across this external concept-space makes complete sense.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:10
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Wiz posted:It does, actually. Having psychic techs/pops significantly boosts spiritualist attraction in your empire. I'm not completely dead set on locking out all psionics for non-spiritualists, but the ascension perks should definitely only be for them. Oh, neat! Also the distinction between the whole of "stuff what is psionic" and the specific Ascension Perks such that the latter is spiritualist-only makes sense.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:11
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Wiz posted:If you want a lore reason, it's more along the lines that you need a certain mindset to tap into The Shroud because of the way it mirrors concepts and beliefs in the material universe. It's like Shadowrun. The more cybernetic you become, the less able you are to tap into....whatever shaman use. Except instead of a guy, it's the whole society. I can buy that.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:12
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Wiz posted:There is no plan to perfectly balance Tall and Wide, we just want options for when you either can't or don't want to expand aggressively. Do habitats and ring worlds follow the terrain habitability of your main species? If not, they'd open up migration treaties and triple your colonization potential...
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Feb 10, 2017 00:22
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