NBA Playoffs 2016-17 G/V: The Playoffs Are A Band Metaphor Now

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > NBA Playoffs 2016-17 G/V: The Playoffs Are A Band Metaphor Now

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Papercut: Aug 24, 2005

Memnaelar posted:

Man, New York has not been a good look for Phil. It's really highlighted how supreme talent that was willing to put up with his nonsense gave him the Zen Master namesake and even writing his Kobe-trashing book managed to not come off as ridiculously petty... But this is just sad.

Trashing Kobe could never be petty.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:03

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# ? May 16, 2024 09:09

Doltos: Dec 28, 2005; 🤌🤌🤌

chunkles posted:

To what degree is it even possible to increase ligament strength? I know Christopher Sommer (former men's US gymnastics coach) is pretty obsessed with this and continually stresses that connective tissue adaptation happens on a much slower timescale than muscular adaptation does. Also how much is the risk of injury increased by like, an NBA level of use? I'm curious whether super-explosive athletes are at a higher risk or if it's just that the amount of work they do exposes them to more injury risk. (i.e. if there's an x% chance of a ligament injury for every minute of basketball you play, is it just that NBA athletes do a lot more work than everybody, or is somebody jumping all over the place increasing their risk?)

My Anat and Physiology professor claimed that the better way to increase ligament strength is by increasing the strength of minor and ancillary muscles. Doing free weight exercises, pilates, yoga, and having a wide variety of sports played allows the body to be complete instead of specialized. I found a study that said UCL injuries in baseball were due to velocity of pitches and not amount of pitches, so it stands to reason that repeated use through increased magnitudes of torque is going to wreck ligaments.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:04

Dejan Bimble: Mar 24, 2008; we're all black friends; Plaster Town Cop

chunkles posted:

To what degree is it even possible to increase ligament strength? I know Christopher Sommer (former men's US gymnastics coach) is pretty obsessed with this and continually stresses that connective tissue adaptation happens on a much slower timescale than muscular adaptation does. Also how much is the risk of injury increased by like, an NBA level of use? I'm curious whether super-explosive athletes are at a higher risk or if it's just that the amount of work they do exposes them to more injury risk. (i.e. if there's an x% chance of a ligament injury for every minute of basketball you play, is it just that NBA athletes do a lot more work than everybody, or is somebody jumping all over the place increasing their risk?)

TO what degree is a question for the people doing secret experiments on Chinese prisoners and infants. But tendons and ligaments get stronger by a sort of similar process to muscles, the difference being that instead of a muscle cell being damaged then growing bigger, there's more collagen added, more fibers grown, and more weaving together of those fibers. It happens at a glacial pace compared to muscle growth. Igf1 is important and HGH also seems to help

Dejan Bimble fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Feb 10, 2017

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:10

dokmo: Aug 27, 2006; man

It is bizarre to me that there is no widely accepted general theory of injuries.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:11

Dejan Bimble: Mar 24, 2008; we're all black friends; Plaster Town Cop

dokmo posted:

It is bizarre to me that there is no widely accepted general theory of injuries.

Do you mean individual susceptibility or do you mean the discrete injury event?

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:15

dokmo: Aug 27, 2006; man

Dejan Bimble posted:

Do you mean individual susceptibility or do you mean the discrete injury event?

I mean a general theory that would explain previous injuries, explain the lack of injuries in similar-but-different cases, and be able to predict future injuries given known factors.

edit: I'm not putting the lack of a theory on anyone, just expressing surprise that the problem is much more difficult than I assumed.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:18

Memnaelar: Feb 21, 2013; WHO is the goodest girl?

Papercut posted:

Trashing Kobe could never be petty.

That's the thing. It was a ridiculously crap thing to tell-all on a former player, but until the Grandpappy Mamba Rep Rehab Tour, Kobe was the sort of player who everyone outside of L.A. thought was unlikable enough for that sort of thing to be okay and probably just truthful. But punching down at a former Paltroons player and crapping all over a star who you're theoretically trying to market as a trade asset? It doesn't even make sense from a "sell dem books" standpoint; it's just lame and counterproductive and, well, beneath the image he'd made for himself.

Bad look.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:20

BWV: Feb 24, 2005

Doltos posted:

This article sent me down the rabbit hole and this is what fat Jokic looked like:

https://twitter.com/nmiljenovic/status/519384285166702592/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Brian Windhorst

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:22

Criminal Minded: Jan 4, 2005; Spring break forever

dokmo posted:

I mean a general theory that would explain previous injuries, explain the lack of injuries in similar-but-different cases, and be able to predict future injuries given known factors.

edit: I'm not putting the lack of a theory on anyone, just expressing surprise that the problem is much more difficult than I assumed.

Nutritional science faces some of the same issues, because unfortunately: we are all snowflakes. Everybody's body is just so different in ways that are absurdly hard to measure.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:31

Brolander: Oct 20, 2008; i am but a vessel

Jabari Parker Tears Same ACL: It's Bullshit

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:39

chunkles: Aug 14, 2005; i am completely immersed in darkness
as i turn my body away from the sun

Doltos posted:

My Anat and Physiology professor claimed that the better way to increase ligament strength is by increasing the strength of minor and ancillary muscles. Doing free weight exercises, pilates, yoga, and having a wide variety of sports played allows the body to be complete instead of specialized. I found a study that said UCL injuries in baseball were due to velocity of pitches and not amount of pitches, so it stands to reason that repeated use through increased magnitudes of torque is going to wreck ligaments.

Dejan Bimble posted:

TO what degree is a question for the people doing secret experiments on Chinese prisoners and infants. But tendons and ligaments get stronger by a sort of similar process to muscles, the difference being that instead of a muscle cell being damaged then growing bigger, there's more collagen added, more fibers grown, and more weaving together of those fibers. It happens at a glacial pace compared to muscle growth. Igf1 is important and HGH also seems to help

Interesting. I wonder if the NBA schedule even allows for as much of this work as they should probably have. Presumably they are limited in season (a guy I post w/ on another forum trains marathoners and is happy if they can do a bodyweight back squat in season). And the offseason is only about 5 months.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:40

dokmo: Aug 27, 2006; man

Criminal Minded posted:

Nutritional science faces some of the same issues, because unfortunately: we are all snowflakes. Everybody's body is just so different in ways that are absurdly hard to measure.

I don't know if that's it. I mean, yes, it's difficult, but we can still predict how players' age affects their performance over their careers in a general and predictive sense. I don't know if strength and conditioning guys are not used to putting their ideas of which players are at-risk into a testable framework or if I'm not asking the right people the right questions, it just feels to me like someone would have come up with a way to predict injuries, even at a super basic level like say that a player whose weight is x, height is y, and is z years old has a 60% chance of developing knee problems in the next 3 years.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:41

Noctone: Oct 25, 2005; XO til we overdose..

Hell, we're only a few years removed from doctors discovering a previously unknown knee ligament.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:43

pubic works project: Jan 28, 2005; No Decepticon in history, and I say this with great surety, has been treated worse or more unfairly.

BWV posted:

Brian Windhorst

Lmao

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:45

Dejan Bimble: Mar 24, 2008; we're all black friends; Plaster Town Cop

dokmo posted:

I mean a general theory that would explain previous injuries, explain the lack of injuries in similar-but-different cases, and be able to predict future injuries given known factors.

edit: I'm not putting the lack of a theory on anyone, just expressing surprise that the problem is much more difficult than I assumed.

The real science of movement has advanced a lot recently. Today there's a huge body of people who could have watched high school Derrick Rose and said "his knees will explode." MRIs and other advanced imaging has increased understanding soft tissue stuff, stem cell research has helped explain why some people heal and some people don't. But you're right,a sound body of knowledge that's actually written down and not just in the minds of a few thousand guys, it's new, it's a forrmming.

The genetic research is just starting too. There are several studies showing people with fewer of some of the various collagen producing genes are more susceptible to soft tissue injuries.

There's also the matter of learned movement patterns, if your parents have bad biomechanics then you're going to mirror them and move badly, and wear on all your soft tissue, keep wearing on it until it tears or pops or whatever you like. This is probably why white players like Blake Griffin and Chandler Parsons are injury prone. Relearning how to move is a business, right now, because it's less work to prevent the injury by moving properly than to get surgery and then relearn.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:47

The Glumslinger: Sep 24, 2008; Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?; Hair Elf

Noctone posted:

Hell, we're only a few years removed from doctors discovering a previously unknown knee ligament.

They knew it was there, they just didn't know what it did

# ? Feb 10, 2017 00:57

Redgrendel2001: Sep 1, 2006; you literally think a person saying their NBA team of choice being better than the fucking 76ers is a 'schtick'

a literal thing you think.

Dejan Bimble posted:

The real science of movement has advanced a lot recently. Today there's a huge body of people who could have watched high school Derrick Rose and said "his knees will explode." MRIs and other advanced imaging has increased understanding soft tissue stuff, stem cell research has helped explain why some people heal and some people don't. But you're right,a sound body of knowledge that's actually written down and not just in the minds of a few thousand guys, it's new, it's a forrmming.

The genetic research is just starting too. There are several studies showing people with fewer of some of the various collagen producing genes are more susceptible to soft tissue injuries.

There's also the matter of learned movement patterns, if your parents have bad biomechanics then you're going to mirror them and move badly, and wear on all your soft tissue, keep wearing on it until it tears or pops or whatever you like. This is probably why white players like Blake Griffin and Chandler Parsons are injury prone. Relearning how to move is a business, right now, because it's less work to prevent the injury by moving properly than to get surgery and then relearn.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:00

Zogo: Jul 29, 2003

Lockback posted:

I really thought the Bulls had Zogo's "Biggest Train Wreck Team" award sewn up already but the Knicks are making a solid mid-season push.

Bulls, Knicks, Kings got 2/3rd of the vote.

code:

Select the most trainwreck team of 2017:

		Votes	Percentage
Bulls		37	34.6%
Knicks		21	19.6%
Kings		13	12.2%
Nets		10	9.4%
Lakers		7	6.5%
Heat		5	4.7%
Bucks		2	1.9%
Rockets		2	1.9%
Trail Blazers	2	1.9%
76ers		1	0.09%
Cavaliers	1	0.09%
Mavericks	1	0.09%
Pacers		1	0.09%
Pelicans	1	0.09%
Thunder		1	0.09%
Warriors	1	0.09%
Wizards		1	0.09%

Drunk Canuck posted:

https://twitter.com/wyshynski/status/829817050667302920

DO NOT TAKE AWAY MY ONLINE COMEDY, SILVER.

Joel Embiid's going to be fined ~$1,000,000 dollars soon.

Hashtag Banterzone posted:

Melo should come out and apologize to Oakley on behalf of the Knicks.

He's too busy playing the kazoo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJxXBCfNzwA

Juaguocio posted:

Charles Oakley once got 35 rebounds in a single game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXZ_-qj9aZU

Still the single game record for the 3P era.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:02

chunkles: Aug 14, 2005; i am completely immersed in darkness
as i turn my body away from the sun

Dejan Bimble posted:

The genetic research is just starting too. There are several studies showing people with fewer of some of the various collagen producing genes are more susceptible to soft tissue injuries.

The genetics stuff is cray cray

http://www.otpbooks.com/stuart-mcgill-hip-anatomy/

This guy mostly talks about hip anatomy as it relates to the squat but it's interesting that he mentions certain hip anatomies can't move laterally for dick.

Ten years from now, you'll have to get an MRI and DNA genotyping as part of the combine. Jonathan Givony will have to get a biomechanics degree.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:03

Zogo: Jul 29, 2003

Now let's hope Oakley pays a visit to the UC and has some words for Hoiberg and Reinsdorf.

Tae posted:

Esports and the NBA are taking their relationship to the next level

Yes, we must see if eCharles Oakley can curse out eJames Dolan in this eSport game.

Bashez posted:

Is there even any way to compete against other people reasonably in NBA2k? There's no skill ratings or match making right?

Sports games seem to have short learning curves compared to some games that people can play for years without mastering.

johnny sack posted:

1) Point guard passes the ball to an open teammate. Teammate immediately takes shot, makes basket. Point guard gets assist.

2) Point guard passes the ball to an open teammate. Teammate immediately takes shot, but is fouled in the act. The ball does not go in the basket but the shooter is awarded 2 free throws. The point guard does not get an assist.

Would the following rule change make sense?

In scenario 2, rather than the point guard getting 0 assists if the teammate makes 1 or 2 of the free throws, change the rule so that the point guard gets 0.5 assists per free throw made (only 1.0 assist possible even if it is 3 free throws).

If it's a 3PA then the guy would get 1.5 assists.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:10

DeimosRising: Oct 17, 2005; �Hola SEA!

Tae posted:

Because the Knicks are still stupid enough to give big, long term contracts Reggie Miller

And some of those contracts can be worth twice what Miller made in his whole career. A Mega Max from the new CBA instantly makes you a top 10 all time career earner.

Bush Did Outer Heaven posted:

Where are we with cloning human body parts?

Can we clone LeBron's ACL onto a mouse or something

We're getting there. Lebron Jamon and Pygmelo are not so very far in our future...

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:11

boop the snoot: Jun 3, 2016

Zogo posted:

Sports games seem to have short learning curves compared to some games that people can play for years without mastering.

False. Play the right group of people and you'll get smashed like 150-40.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:13

Spacebump: Dec 24, 2003; Dallas Mavericks: Generations

Drunk Canuck posted:

https://twitter.com/wyshynski/status/829817050667302920

DO NOT TAKE AWAY MY ONLINE COMEDY, SILVER.

Teams and players need to follow the lead of NASA, Federal Parks, etc and start making Rogue accounts on twitter. @RogueEmbiid would probably be the best one.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:18

Zogo: Jul 29, 2003

GrahamBLY posted:

1- the Knicks are the 2nd most valuable team in the NBA, regardless of being terrible forever.

I think NYK is still #1 in value.

Dejan Bimble posted:

Special K just compared Julius Randle to former NBA rebounding champion Michael Cage

http://www.nba.com/media/act_michael_cage.jpg

And of you old timers have any memories of that guy? I don't believe I've ever heard of him

Just another good player that would get talked up before the game as being a dangerous matchup/threat against the Bulls. Then Jordan would dunk on him a few times and the game was over.

This happened with so many players throughout the whole season.

TBeats posted:

False. Play the right group of people and you'll get smashed like 150-40.

Well, there are players of all skill levels playing games now. How long would it take someone to master some NBA game now? Are there still improvements in strategy being made years later?

Because there are games like that where no one has mastered them.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:24

Zogo: Jul 29, 2003

LeBron's Cavaliers Lost An NBA-High $40 Million Last Season Despite Championship
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2017/01/27/how-lebrons-cavaliers-lost-an-nba-high-40-million-last-season/

SamuraiFoochs posted:

Also I love that their defense is "He was cursing at James Dolan! " So loving what?

James Dolan has decreed that MSG shall not be tainted by curse words.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:45

chunkles: Aug 14, 2005; i am completely immersed in darkness
as i turn my body away from the sun

Zogo posted:

LeBron's Cavaliers Lost An NBA-High $40 Million Last Season Despite Championship
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2017/01/27/how-lebrons-cavaliers-lost-an-nba-high-40-million-last-season/

LeBron has finally surpassed Nebuchadnezzar II

in terms of decadent building projects, I mean

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:53

Dejan Bimble: Mar 24, 2008; we're all black friends; Plaster Town Cop

Did you guys know Jabari Parker's dad played in the NBA for 5 seasons?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkeso01.html

One of his career comps is a guy named Trooper Washington

# ? Feb 10, 2017 01:55

Rick: Feb 23, 2004; When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.

Jabari's game is a lot of fun and this whole thing sucks.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:09

Brolander: Oct 20, 2008; i am but a vessel

I'm sorry Jabari Parker for calling you Julius Randle all those times. I did this

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:12

Cool Buff Man: Jul 30, 2006; bitch

Brolander posted:

I'm sorry Jabari Parker for calling you Julius Randle all those times. I did this

Pesto-Parkergate is going to bury you.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:25

Away all Goats: Jul 5, 2005; Goose's rebellion

Wow that sucks about Jabari, he was having a career year (I know it's only his 3rd year but still). Thought for sure they'd make the playoffs once Middleton came back.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:49

tanglewood1420: Oct 28, 2010; The importance of this mission cannot be overemphasized

johnny sack posted:

1) Point guard passes the ball to an open teammate. Teammate immediately takes shot, makes basket. Point guard gets assist.

2) Point guard passes the ball to an open teammate. Teammate immediately takes shot, but is fouled in the act. The ball does not go in the basket but the shooter is awarded 2 free throws. The point guard does not get an assist.

Would the following rule change make sense?

In scenario 2, rather than the point guard getting 0 assists if the teammate makes 1 or 2 of the free throws, change the rule so that the point guard gets 0.5 assists per free throw made (only 1.0 assist possible even if it is 3 free throws).

Assists should be a process stat, not an outcome stat, as the passer has no ability to affect if the shot goes in or not. Award players 'effective assists' based on the eFG% of the shot taken on that spot on the court and how well it was guarded.

Drive into the lane and then kick out to an unguarded corner three? You get 0.65*1.5 = 0.95 eAssists even though Andre Roberson clanked it.
Run a pick and roll and throw it into a guy cutting off the wing for a contested 15 footer? You get 0.35 eAssists, not one whole assist just because DeRozan made a tough stepback jumper.

For fouls you could go one of two ways - either give a player the eAssist equivalent of the fouled players free throw % OR if you assume that the passer has no effect on whether the shooter would be fouled or not (not sure if that is the case or not, you'd need to do a serious study) then ignore all fouls and just award assists based on the shot the player took anyway, even if there was a whistle and it didn't technically count.

You could then have another stat that uses the eFG% averages of the player passed to rather than league average to reward players who pass to players in appropriate spots for the shooter's skillset and also to evaluate the difference between guys on good shooting teams vs bad shooting teams. Then you could compare eAssists vs real assists (adjusted *1.5 for threes) to see if certain players are having lucky or unlucky assist games/seasons - or perhaps even that certain players Lebron consistently outperform the expected eAssist metric so are probably doing something specific that makes them better passers even outside of decision making and reading the defense.

I'm sure teams like Houston already do this, but it would be awesome for us laymen to have a look at it.

tanglewood1420 fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Feb 10, 2017

# ? Feb 10, 2017 02:54

Paul Zuvella: Dec 7, 2011

tanglewood1420 posted:

Assists should be a process stat, not an outcome stat, as the passer has no ability to affect if the shot goes in or not. Award players 'effective assists' based on the eFG% of the shot taken on that spot on the court and how well it was guarded.

Drive into the lane and then kick out to an unguarded corner three? You get 0.65*1.5 = 0.95 eAssists even though Andre Roberson clanked it.
Run a pick and roll and throw it into a guy cutting off the wing for a contested 15 footer? You get 0.35 eAssists, not one whole assist just because DeRozan made a tough stepback jumper.

For fouls you could go one of two ways - either give a player the eAssist equivalent of the fouled players free throw % OR if you assume that the passer has no effect on whether the shooter would be fouled or not (not sure if that is the case or not, you'd need to do a serious study) then ignore all fouls and just award assists based on the shot the player took anyway, even if there was a whistle and it didn't technically count.

You could then have another stat that uses the eFG% averages of the player passed to rather than league average to reward players who pass to players in appropriate spots for the shooter's skillset and also to evaluate the difference between guys on good shooting teams vs bad shooting teams. Then you could compare eAssists vs real assists (adjusted *1.5 for threes) to see if certain players are having lucky or unlucky assist games/seasons - or perhaps even that certain players Lebron consistently outperform the expected eAssist metric so are probably doing something specific that makes them better passers even outside of decision making and reading the defense.

I'm sure teams like Houston already do this, but it would be awesome for us laymen to have a look at it.

Literally no one cares about assists this much. There are way easier ways to look at whether or not players put their teammates in favorable shooting positions with passes.

It's called their FG%

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:23

Brolander: Oct 20, 2008; i am but a vessel

https://twitter.com/AdamJosephSport/status/829857643107741697

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:27

Drunk Canuck: Jan 9, 2010; Robots ruin all the fun of a good adventure.

Louisville?

That's a bold wish.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:53

chunkles: Aug 14, 2005; i am completely immersed in darkness
as i turn my body away from the sun

Medieval numerology update: Harden leads league in double doubles with 44, first time a guard has done it since Stockton in like '95

# ? Feb 10, 2017 03:59

Declan MacManus: Sep 1, 2011; damn i'm really in this bitch

chunkles posted:

Medieval numerology update: Harden leads league in double doubles with 44, first time a guard has done it since Stockton in like '95

I mean after 20 years of Duncan and Shaq and a healthy Dwight Howard we're due

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:01

Redgrendel2001: Sep 1, 2006; you literally think a person saying their NBA team of choice being better than the fucking 76ers is a 'schtick'

a literal thing you think.

https://twitter.com/Sixers/status/829885439578402816

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:01

Doltos: Dec 28, 2005; 🤌🤌🤌

Brolander posted:

https://twitter.com/AdamJosephSport/status/829857643107741697

That'd be pretty cool. They're a tiny market, I think Louisville only has like 200k people in it, but Kentucky deserves a professional basketball team.

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:06

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# ? May 16, 2024 09:09

Mr. Mambold: Feb 13, 2011; Aha. Nice post.

Doltos posted:

That'd be pretty cool. They're a tiny market, I think Louisville only has like 200k people in it, but Kentucky deserves a professional basketball team.

They've already got one.

edit- too easy, low hanging fruit Incorporated

# ? Feb 10, 2017 04:07

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > NBA Playoffs 2016-17 G/V: The Playoffs Are A Band Metaphor Now

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