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For Heist movies I'd like to throw in PBTA-hack Daylight Robbery Grant Howitt's One Last Job was one of the very first Heist RPGs I'd ever heard about, though I've not played it.
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Feb 13, 2017 01:46
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Oh whoa today is my Birthday so I went to this wonderful beach on my break from the student council here in Rio and I had a wonderful time there, with an amazing waterplace to swim and dive and had a great lunch and I can't believe that during that time I missed an argument on how playing Dungeons and Dragons 5E makes you equal to Adolf Hitler.
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Feb 13, 2017 01:46
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Plutonis posted:Oh whoa today is my Birthday so I went to this wonderful beach on my break from the student council here in Rio and I had a wonderful time there, with an amazing waterplace to swim and dive and had a great lunch and I can't believe that during that time I missed an argument on how playing Dungeons and Dragons 5E makes you equal to Adolf Hitler. That is a nice beach.
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Feb 13, 2017 01:47
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You should have played an RPG at the beach.
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Feb 13, 2017 01:48
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MonsterEnvy posted:That is a nice beach. It really is. I even got a decent boat trip that let me take pics of some grottoes and dive on places where there aren't many people.
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Feb 13, 2017 01:49
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Plutonis posted:It really is. I even got a decent boat trip that let me take pics of some grottoes and dive on places where there aren't many people. Man, I really gotta head back up north some time this summer and go on some lakes. Have any RPGs handled water in combat in a way that is not a total slog?/actually tactically interesting?
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Feb 13, 2017 01:51
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Countblanc posted:You should have played an RPG at the beach. A game of Everyone is John with an inflatable d6 and sea shells as tokens. Speaking of, would Discord be a good avenue for playing Everyone is John?
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Feb 13, 2017 01:55
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Ash Rose posted:There are a lot of really important fronts for fighting fascism in this age, but honestly I don't think being obstinate in this way is doing anything for the cause, probably the best way to combat this sort of thing in the hobby is supporting game lines that are generally being cool and confronting lovely behavior when you see folks engage in it. And 5e is an uncool game and the game and the people behind it lead to a lot of lovely behaviour themselves. I know they seem like vague ties, but I was here for that stuff, and it's far more than that. And yes, i'm a trans woman myself, which is why i'm not standing for this poo poo.
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Feb 13, 2017 01:57
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There are problematic elements in nearly every iteration of D&D (including Pathfinder in that measure) to hit the stands; 5e from what I've seen is one of the least objectionable (though there could be dumb stuff I don't know about). The politics around its origins are another story, and are really lovely, but at the same time it doesn't seem to have internalized creepiness like with some earlier games or some of the more notorious OSR games. I mean, the mechanics to me are a bland gruel of various D&D elements, but a lot of people feel differently and that's alright. I don't know anybody that plays it in my local area and I don't have to particularly worry about it. The casual players I know at work still like Pathfinder more. I think knowing about regressive elements in our media is important (as to not perpetuate them) but it's not necessarily a dealbreaker as far as enjoying something goes - it depends on how much it pervades the work and how much supporting the work allows it to continue. 5e didn't even have much of that, it just had an awful political stance (as in industry politics) in its inception, but that doesn't seem to have entered the work itself. The original sin is there, but I don't get the impression that it's been perpetuated over time, though I haven't been paying close attention.
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Feb 13, 2017 01:59
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LongDarkNight posted:A game of Everyone is John with an inflatable d6 and sea shells as tokens. Sure, it has text logging and voice chat, the only thing it lacks is support for webcams or a virtual table, and you don't really need those for Everyone is John.
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Feb 13, 2017 02:05
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Ash Rose posted:I genuinely had no idea about the specific instances of doxxing and Mearl's involvement/endorsement thereof, though RPG Pundit doing that kind of thing is not surprising in the slightest. Knowing that, my interest in the game has dropped from barely any to zero, and it's the sort of thing I like to be aware of before buying a product. To my knowledge it was Zak S doing the doxxing and harassment (and very weird crusade). RPG Pundit publicly wanted Monte Cook to slit his own throat, but I don't think he quite got up to Zak's level of dickbaggery. If you've got archives old iterations of the grognards thread goes into details.
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Feb 13, 2017 02:05
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I am just going to to try find out the truth about this stuff. Unbiased cause I know very little about all of this background stuff. Arivia posted:And 5e is an uncool game and the game and the people behind it lead to a lot of lovely behaviour themselves. Can you explain this in detail. Cause the game does not lead to lovely behavior from what I can see, and I don't see being a trans woman has anything to do with 5e. (Seriously I don't, I have no idea how it's related so explain it to me so I understand.) Cause 5e is not against trans women from what I can tell.
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Feb 13, 2017 02:06
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I'm going to unlock the thread, I just wanted to make a post first and I've been a little busy. Today for sure.
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Feb 13, 2017 02:31
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Alien Rope Burn posted:There are problematic elements in nearly every iteration of D&D (including Pathfinder in that measure) Remember when Pathfinder loaned out its female iconics as last-minute add-ons for the Kingdom Death kickstarter  Alien Rope Burn posted:The original sin is there, but I don't get the impression that it's been perpetuated over time, though I haven't been paying close attention. It's barely perpetuated at all since the release schedule has slowed down so much from prior editions. Afaik, the consultancy was a one-off thing where everyone was paid to playtest the game, give some input, and flown back to their homes. It was a blatant attempt to court endorsements from people Mearls clearly deemed relevant and worthy of respect, which was gross and awful, but honestly I don't think it had the results Mearls wanted at all. The attempted hype about 5e being the edition to unite all warring factions died on arrival
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Feb 13, 2017 02:37
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I mean, I seem to recall the 5e PHB having a vague acknowledgment of gender variant folks in it's character creation section, and I have not heard of anything egregious in the material itself. For sure it seems very uninteresting on a mechanical level, but this right here: quote:the game and the people behind it lead to a lot of lovely behaviour themselves. I don't think that follows, how does the game lead to lovely behavior? Is the argument that the trans-phobic tendencies of people involved are coming through in the writing of the game and are contributing to trans-phobia in culture at large? Like, by all means, be your own advocate and take no poo poo from people, and if Zak/Pundit/Mearls did that poo poo, gently caress them.
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Feb 13, 2017 02:39
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Nuns with Guns posted:It was a blatant attempt to court endorsements from people Mearls clearly deemed relevant and worthy of respect, which was gross and awful, but honestly I don't think it had the results Mearls wanted at all. The attempted hype about 5e being the edition to unite all warring factions died on arrival The impression I got was that Mearls was maybe trying to prevent these people from mobilizing their respective fanbases into anti-5e partisans, given how violently they were able to turn against 4e, even after Mearls already tried to remake 4e into a 3e-alike with Essentials.
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Feb 13, 2017 02:49
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gradenko_2000 posted:The impression I got was that Mearls was maybe trying to prevent these people from mobilizing their respective fanbases into anti-5e partisans, given how violently they were able to turn against 4e, even after Mearls already tried to remake 4e into a 3e-alike with Essentials. I doubt any OSR voices had enough leverage to heavily stoke the 3e/4e edition divide. Things like Paizo building up their own game and a strong backlash against the heavy rewrites of the Forgotten Realms were way more significant.
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Feb 13, 2017 02:55
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gradenko_2000 posted:The impression I got was that Mearls was maybe trying to prevent these people from mobilizing their respective fanbases into anti-5e partisans, given how violently they were able to turn against 4e, even after Mearls already tried to remake 4e into a 3e-alike with Essentials. Apparently this was one of the reasons. Along with the fact most of the people on that list are simply notable in the hobby and they went for people that were notable for the testing. From my research of this matter Mearls does not seem to care much for Zak or Pundit. Nether of the two has had anything to do with 5e since the playtest thing of which they were only 2 people of 15 consultants who had nothing to do with the design. Ettin posted:I'm going to unlock the thread, I just wanted to make a post first and I've been a little busy. Today for sure. Thanks. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Feb 13, 2017 |
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Feb 13, 2017 02:56
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Nuns with Guns posted:Remember when Pathfinder loaned out its female iconics as last-minute add-ons for the Kingdom Death kickstarter I'd already forgotten! Oh, Mona, Mona, Mona.  In any case, not just the female ones, but mostly female. Their designs at least stayed mostly the same, but Seoni... is a little more Seoni, I see.
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Feb 13, 2017 03:00
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MonsterEnvy posted:Apparently this was one of the reasons. Along with the fact most of the people on that list are simply notable in the hobby and they went for people that were notable for the testing. From my research of this matter Mearls does not seem to care much for Zak or Pundit. Nether of the two has had anything to do with 5e since the playtest thing of which they were only 2 people of 15 consultants who had nothing to do with the design. Mearls and Zak were at the time (don't know if they still are) friends on facebook, so they're at least polite acquaintances. Alien Rope Burn posted:I'd already forgotten! Oh, Mona, Mona, Mona. Yeah I'd forgotten that a couple male iconic outlines were teased in the original kickstarter post, that's my bad
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Feb 13, 2017 03:04
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There was also the fact that apparently when Mearls received emails about the histories of harassment he asked for, he shared them with S for "confirmation", and not in a NAME REDACTED way either.
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Feb 13, 2017 03:08
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Is there a YouTube series out there that would be good to show normies a role playing game in action? Sort of like Wil Wheaton's Tabletop?
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Feb 13, 2017 03:22
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Nuns with Guns posted:Mearls and Zak were at the time (don't know if they still are) friends on facebook, so they're at least polite acquaintances. Facebook friends does not appear to be the case anymore. I have not looked in super deep detail however. fozzy fosbourne posted:Is there a YouTube series out there that would be good to show normies a role playing game in action? Sort of like Wil Wheaton's Tabletop? Pretty sure there is a large list of this. Critical Roll is the most popular one from what I am aware of, but I don't know if it's on Youtube. (But it probably is.)
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Feb 13, 2017 03:28
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Probably a given here, but if you like podcasts, give Six Feats Under a listen.
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Feb 13, 2017 03:33
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One Shot is still my favorite actual play podcast and it's directly responsible for me getting into Feng Shui 2, which I think still sits as my favorite RPG.
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Feb 13, 2017 03:34
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MonsterEnvy posted:Facebook friends does not appear to be the case anymore. I have not looked in super deep detail however. I'm not really sure what the point of this exercise is. If people want to play 5e despite its "connections" to lovely people, I don't get the utility of trying to establish that either these people aren't poo poo, or that these connections are either not real or are instead only very tenuous. Like, the entire point of the prior conversations is that "people probably shouldn't be so openly hostile to other people trying to play elfgames just because it's not the ""right"" elfgame". If we already commit to doing that, then trying to "disprove" claims about RPGPundit and Zak S's relevance to 5e itself becomes irrelevant.
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Feb 13, 2017 03:40
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MonsterEnvy posted:Facebook friends does not appear to be the case anymore. I have not looked in super deep detail however. They were still connected at the time 5e was being developed and when the consultants were tapped, so I imagine whatever rapport they had then was a factor in why Zak was invited to playtest. That said, I doubt anyone tapped just to consult had any impact on the game itself. Like I said before, it was a PR play to get endorsements for the game. That said, I'm not going to hold anyone personally responsible for buying the 5e rule books, since it's not like the entire blowup is public or even notable outside of a few forums. It doesn't help that most TG drama happens in private Google+ circles (of all places???). I think a place to talk shop about 5e should exist here, since this is generally a decent forum for advice on tabletop games, too. Maybe with an EDITION WAR BLOOD ARENA thread for people to talk mechanical shop about D&D across time? Maybe if it's open to all editions it'd stay relatively sane. Or open it up to discussing rule changes in other games, too. I'm honestly curious how Call of Cthulhu manages to be on its 7th edition already
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Feb 13, 2017 03:47
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fozzy fosbourne posted:Is there a YouTube series out there that would be good to show normies a role playing game in action? Sort of like Wil Wheaton's Tabletop? You're in luck, my friend, as there are many, many shows out there at the moment that do that very thing. Critical Role is the most popular, but quite a few popular youtubers decided to hop on the D&D bandwagon a while back. I know Roosterteeth has a show, Will Wheaton has one (not D&D, but a D&D-like), and I bet there are others. I've never, personally, watched any of them, but I'm just not that into actual plays. The ones I know of and that have links (I take no responsibility if they suck as I don't watch these things, personal preference): Geek and Sundry's Critical Role Wil Wheaton's Titan's Grave. Roosterteeth's Heroes and Halfwits. Also, for voice-only works, I'd suggest the following: Our Very Own Six Feats Under. James D'mato's One Shot. Covok fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Feb 13, 2017 |
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Feb 13, 2017 04:06
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5e is Bad. I play 5th edition because it's what one of my real life tabletop groups wants to play, and my opinion doesn't matter when it's what the DM, who is a dude I like and respect, wants to run. The game is still fine and good for all that but it's good despite the system, not because of it. I also despise the gently caress out of Mearls, Zak S, RPGPundit, and the accompanying detritus. I think to pretend the latter two aren't toxic leeches on the hobby is ridiculous and I think the way Mearls handled poo poo for already-detailed reasons is horrible and put people I care about in danger by throwing kerosine on an already-pungent dumpster fire. So I tell people who want to play 5e about that poo poo. Because they should know and because I would want to know. I don't think they're evil for wanting to play it, or still wanting to play it after knowing. But they should know. And hopefully they should opt not to give WOTC any(more) of their money. I don't know if Arivia's been lambasting specific players of 5e just for liking 5e (as opposed to, say, limpwristedly attempting to defend Mearls or the assholes involved in that whole mess when it's brought up, which people seem to want to do for weird kneejerk reasons) because I haven't seen anything like that. All I've seen her do is talk about how the game is kind of poo poo (it is) and how some of the key people involved in its creation are poo poo (they are) albeit yes, pretty aggressively. I can get aggressive about it too, tbh. I still miss Mikan. Anyway this isn't to say what Arivia's posting in the 5e thread should or shouldn't look like going forward but it would be nice if all the information about that poo poo was toploaded in the OP or something so at least people stand a chance of being made aware of it when coming in cold without having it dragged out over and over to the general apparent despair of thread regulars.
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Feb 13, 2017 04:41
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Reene posted:Anyway this isn't to say what Arivia's posting in the 5e thread should or shouldn't look like going forward but it would be nice if all the information about that poo poo was toploaded in the OP or something so at least people stand a chance of being made aware of it when coming in cold without having it dragged out over and over to the general apparent despair of thread regulars. This can be arranged.
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Feb 13, 2017 04:45
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I've always thought that 5e is less actively bad than incredibly disappointing. It wouldn't really take serious design chops or problem solving skills to give fighters/rogues/rangers powers of the same importance as the ones wizards and clerics get, just time and the basic conviction that it'd be a good idea. Then you'd have a serviceable game which is written more obtusely than 4e was but requires considerably less overhead and accountancy at mid to higher levels of play.
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Feb 13, 2017 04:46
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fozzy fosbourne posted:Is there a YouTube series out there that would be good to show normies a role playing game in action? Sort of like Wil Wheaton's Tabletop? You are in luck. In addition to Covok's excellent post, we have a thread for podcasts and youtube series. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3743698
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Feb 13, 2017 05:17
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Mearls himself is plenty of a shitbag in of itself, but he's also friends with Zak who is indeed a prolific and serial harasser and stalker, and yes, harassed one much beloved goon out of the industry entirely over made up and incredibly petty reasons; it just so happens, coincidentally that nearly all his targets are trans folk or women. Pundit himself is a far right-wing lunatic who regularly praises nazis, and while he to my knowledge was not involved in that specific bout of harassment and stalking, has had more then his fair share of harassment put to his name. I will not buy a product that involved them. Period. If you want to? Sure, whatever. You're all grown ups, you can make your own decision. I'm not organizing some grand boycott, and hell, I think 5e is a bad game so I wasn't going to buy it anyways. But the fact remains - Mearls actively went after those two and put their names in the book. So gently caress no, I'm not having anything to do with that game.
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Feb 13, 2017 05:36
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Nuns with Guns posted:They were still connected at the time 5e was being developed and when the consultants were tapped, so I imagine whatever rapport they had then was a factor in why Zak was invited to playtest. That said, I doubt anyone tapped just to consult had any impact on the game itself. Like I said before, it was a PR play to get endorsements for the game. That's the thing of it, really. I can't blame people for being surprised SA is so virulently against 5e, but it happened and there's plenty of justifiable reasons for it, and people need to realize that this is never going to be a peaceable forum to talk about 5e in, with all the poo poo that went down here about it. And fyi I try to stick to my guns about these things. I mentioned it in this thread before, but I'm no longer buying Paizo products after that poo poo with Kingdom Death, despite all the other good they've done. And you all know how much I like Pathfinder. If someone came up to me and asked if I'd recommend Pathfinder at this point I'd say no because of that poo poo, and tell them why.
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Feb 13, 2017 05:45
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Ferrinus posted:I've always thought that 5e is less actively bad than incredibly disappointing. It wouldn't really take serious design chops or problem solving skills to give fighters/rogues/rangers powers of the same importance as the ones wizards and clerics get, just time and the basic conviction that it'd be a good idea. Then you'd have a serviceable game which is written more obtusely than 4e was but requires considerably less overhead and accountancy at mid to higher levels of play. From what I've read of gradenko's excellent detective work, at the outset of 4e the design team went in with the idea that all classes would have powers; from the monster math (if not the early adventure design) it was also pretty clear that their intention was that PCs should actually be capable of handling what you throw at them. 5e throws all that out of the window. As much as I admire the ways in which its core math is a direct refinement of 4e's (albeit I don't have complete faith in the AC or Saves' scaling) the change back to a game based around the 3.5 spell list was a huge backpedal from something I thought made 4e a big improvement over its predecessor.
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Feb 13, 2017 05:48
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I thought I was about as salty at 5e as one could be, but even I moved on from talking about it because there's not a lot to say that hasn't already been said. It turns out that a stripped-down 3e with AD&D flavoring...has all the problems 3e had. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Feb 13, 2017 |
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Feb 13, 2017 05:48
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ProfessorCirno posted:Mearls himself is plenty of a shitbag in of itself, but he's also friends with Zak who is indeed a prolific and serial harasser and stalker, and yes, harassed one much beloved goon out of the industry entirely over made up and incredibly petty reasons; it just so happens, coincidentally that nearly all his targets are trans folk or women. Pundit himself is a far right-wing lunatic who regularly praises nazis, and while he to my knowledge was not involved in that specific bout of harassment and stalking, has had more then his fair share of harassment put to his name. Mearls no longer appears to be friends with Zak. The guy is nothing special however. 5e itself is fine to women and trans folk. Arivia posted:That's the thing of it, really. I can't blame people for being surprised SA is so virulently against 5e, but it happened and there's plenty of justifiable reasons for it, and people need to realize that this is never going to be a peaceable forum to talk about 5e in, with all the poo poo that went down here about it. No it just kind of seems like you are really stubborn. Because I don't get the poo poo that went down about it. From my and a bunch of other peoples largely uniformed point of view. A lot of you guys seem to just want to hate something because of a grudge against someone that has nothing to do with the product other then his name being in a book. And as a result try to ruin it for everyone else. If you can explain it in more detail for me so I understand it would help. But this is all I currently see. Halloween Jack posted:I thought I was about as salty at 5e as one could be, but even I moved on from talking about it because there's not a lot to say that hasn't already been said. It turns out that a stripped-down 3e with AD&D flavoring...has all the problems 3e had. Most of the 3e problems are gone from my experience. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Feb 13, 2017 |
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Feb 13, 2017 05:53
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MonsterEnvy posted:No it just kind of seems like you are really stubborn. Because I don't get the poo poo that went down about it. From looking at your posts, you don't seem to get a lot of things. If you've not understood it from this page, then you need to get new glasses. The product itself is really, completely bad. It is a retrograde piece of poo poo that isn't fit as a replacement for what came before it, and it has very little to nothing redeeming about it. And then, it was designed and worked on by three people who collectively harassed, doxxed, and stalked marginalized people, including one of our friends. Ethically, you don't buy products from bad people because that endorses them and their views. The people involved with 5e are bad. Don't buy it for that reason. And that's a valid reason, no matter how small your world might be and how little sense that might make to you. For a larger example, go look up why people don't buy SodaStreams or something. You don't buy bad products, you don't recommend them, and you speak up when other people endorse them. It's only "ruining it" in the nerd sense where you are what products you buy, and that's just thirteen levels of hosed itself. edit: Oh, and 5e's lip service to trans people is just that. Go look at what Paizo's been doing if you want someone who can actually be said to be doing work to diversify and push for positive representation in their products in the past. It's 2017. You can do better than single paragraphs of "trans people exist" and loving Transparent.
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Feb 13, 2017 05:58
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MonsterEnvy posted:No it just kind of seems like you are really stubborn. Because I don't get the poo poo that went down about it. People have repeatedly explained it in detail. Maybe you don't like their explanations, maybe you don't really care, but this whole "no I'm not seeing it, you should continue to hold my hand and walk me through it in ever-elaborate explanations to my satisfaction" shtick is really fuckin insufferable no matter what people are arguing about.
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Feb 13, 2017 05:59
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gently caress off. Your desperate "defend 5e at all costs!" schtick wore thin months ago. Fact remains - Mearls actively decided toxic shitlords should be a part of 5e's creation process, and not only defended them, but outright assisted one of them in their harassment. That's the 5e legacy as far as I'm concerned. And yeah, unsurprising that you think a dude who's made it his goal to stalk and harass women and trans folk who even so much as disagree with him and who openly brags about how coercing those people out of the hobby "makes it stronger" is "nothing special." After all, his name is in the 5e credits! He CAN'T have done anything bad!
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Feb 13, 2017 06:00
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