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Detective No. 27 posted:Oh. Well, Batman kicks some dude out of the bell tower. It might have been Bob's replacement. Been a while since I saw that movie. I think what we've learned throughout the movies is that Batman is not obligated to save anyone from gravity.
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Feb 14, 2017 09:32
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starkebn posted:Okay, it didn't mean anything to me because I haven't watched BvS You should watch it. It is a good film.
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Feb 14, 2017 12:12
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Snowman_McK posted:You should watch it. It is a good film. It's really not though. It's a mess where the only way they could make it coherent was tacking on an extra 60 minutes for a whopping three hours of run time. And even still, the motivations are really unsubstantiated and characters are making very confounding decisions for the sake of plot. Especially Lex, who is more of a loose canon than a pragmatic genius. For that matter, Jesse Eisenberg's portrayal of Lex Luther is awful and tiresome. The worst part of the movie. He was not even menacing -- just petty man employing half baked plans with no foreseeable outcome that brings any benefit to himself or anyone else in the movie. Superman and his relationship with his parents -- and mankind as a hole -- feels more like a burden than inspiring. The most interesting scene is Batman's dream sequence (or premonition) but it is so out of place that it leaves you wondering why it is even there. I'm saying that this scene -- my favorite in this awful movie -- should have been cut. Maybe it's there to get you excited about the next movies, but this one actually grinds to a halt for 10 minutes of trailers under the guise that Lex is compiling data in meta humans. When we look at what he's collected, we learn that Lex is such a marketing genius that he even designed the movie logo icons for our heroes!!!  The final act begins with a drawn out fight that actually doesn't even need to take place. But that's doesn't even matter because then the even bigger threat is revealed (in the trailer six months before the movie came out). Next, Gal Gadot gives the single worst line delivery of the movie. And that's saying something after the one liner "I thought she was with you" - which makes no sense whatsoever since Batman knows exactly who Wonder Woman and Diana Price are  I wanted to like this movie. I gave it so much leeway while seeing it in theater. I said to myself, this is a very flawed movie but with some fun set pieces. But then I watched the Ultimate Cut and could give no more shits.
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Feb 14, 2017 14:04
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:It's really not though. Actually, it is.
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Feb 14, 2017 14:47
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Mods (do we have mods?) really need to make "Actually, X is cool and good" bannable.
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Feb 14, 2017 14:54
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In 2017, it's evident that Eisenberg's Luthor was too realistic to be a plausible comic book villain.
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Feb 14, 2017 14:55
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dont even fink about it posted:Mods (do we have mods?) really need to make "Actually, X is cool and good" bannable. why would liking things be a bannable offense?
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Feb 14, 2017 15:03
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quote:He was not even menacing -- just petty man employing half baked plans with no foreseeable outcome that brings any benefit to himself or anyone else in the movie. The 'foreseeable outcome' is that he killed God, which was his goal the entire time, because he has serious daddy issues and God is the ultimate father figure. (He's also batshit crazy and/or worshipping space demons, so he's not exactly aiming for the tactically realistic maximum-benefit method of defeating Superman.) No, Luthor is not a menacing, suave businessman who hates Superman (just) because he's a threat to his power, but you can tell that from the first time you see him and the first time he opens his mouth. quote:The most interesting scene is Batman's dream sequence (or premonition) but it is so out of place that it leaves you wondering why it is even there. I'm saying that this scene -- my favorite in this awful movie -- should have been cut. You are getting to see what Batman fears - a post-apocalyptic ruin tyrannised by a Superman who scorches giant Omega symbols into the ground and demands total obedience from humanity. I can't think of any movie that uses dream sequences for anything else (that is, exploring a character's psyche). Hell, Age of Ultron does almost exactly the same thing, it's just explicitly some chick beaming Bad Thoughts into people's heads to make them crazy instead of them just being crazy to begin with. quote:Maybe it's there to get you excited about the next movies, but this one actually grinds to a halt for 10 minutes of trailers under the guise that Lex is compiling data in meta humans. When we look at what he's collected, we learn that Lex is such a marketing genius that he even designed the movie logo icons for our heroes!!! I haven't seen the UC so maybe it actually is ten minutes but I remember maybe 2-3 minutes of Diana being freaked out over footage of her and other metahuman threats, and part of the horror is that Lex is trying to control them - which is why he made logos and code names and so on. He plans on using them the same way he uses Batman against Superman. quote:And that's saying something after the one liner "I thought she was with you" - which makes no sense whatsoever since Batman knows exactly who Wonder Woman and Diana Price are Uh, no he doesn't...? He knows she's a superhumanly powerful woman who turned up in the middle of an apocalyptic death battle and just deflected a Kryptonian's laser vision with a shield. The joke is that Superman doesn't know her and Batman thinks she's an alien - so they assume the other brought them along. dont even fink about it posted:Mods (do we have mods?) really need to make "Actually, X is cool and good" bannable. Only if we make posts that basically repeat "It's bad" over and over again bannable too. But that wouldn't be cool, and good. Brother Entropy posted:why would liking things be a bannable offense? Low content posting sucks. It sucks!!!
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Feb 14, 2017 15:08
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ungulateman posted:Low content posting sucks. It sucks!!! actually it's cool and go anyway eisenberg's luthor is great for the same reasons kylo ren is great; they're very pointedly not cool and meancing badasses that you the audience would want to be, they're arrested development men with more power than stability and they impotently try to emulate their predecessors(both their genetic predecessors and the villains from movies that came out earlier) as a mask
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Feb 14, 2017 15:19
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ungulateman posted:Stuff about Lex, meta human tapes It's fine that you like this movie and it's great, but I don't want to see more like this. For what it's worth: It's easy to make fun of nerds when they complain that an interpretation strays too far from the source material, but there's a point when it becomes nothing but a tag line for marketing. Comic book writers have been adapting these characters for decades, playing with different aspects, keeping what works, tossing out what doesn't. The things that really resonates with audiences inevitably get carried over, though. That's why it's all so tiresome when a movie completely skips the important themes and characterizations because the director thinks he knows better. I'm not interested in a nihilistic Lex Luther, a Draconian Batman, or a reserved superman. This is not what these characters - who are basically the modern equivalent of folk lore and myths - are about. I would argue that avengers 2 was not that great either (actually worse in some ways; at least this tried to do something interesting), but that dream scene was earned. It made sense in that shared continuity. The BvS scene was confusing and doesn't even fit your interpretation (it's immediately suggested that this is a possible future, not a nightmare, or is it any of those things?). Again, this was the best scene of the movie. That must say something about what a mess it was. Whale Vomit fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 15:33
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I think they should just remake Lego Batman in live action and make that the standalone Batman film.
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Feb 14, 2017 15:37
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:For what it's worth: It's easy to make fun of nerds when they complain that an interpretation strays too far from the source material, but there's a point when it becomes nothing but a tag line for marketing. Comic book writers have been adapting these characters for decades, playing with different aspects, keeping what works, tossing out what doesn't. The things that really resonates with audiences inevitably get carried over, though. That's why it's all so tiresome when a movie completely skips the important themes and characterizations because the director thinks he knows better. I like the implication that a fascist character is as great a mistake as an (emotionally) reserved one.
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Feb 14, 2017 15:51
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I like the implication that a fascist character is as great a mistake as an (emotionally) reserved one. Edit: never mind. I don't know what this is supposed to mean or what your opinion of this movie is Whale Vomit fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 15:57
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I'm curious as to what version of Lex Luthor isn't nihilistic. The Silver Age one that invented a cure for cancer solely as a means to kill Superman? The amoral businessman of the Byrne reworking? The one from Superman/Superman Returns who engages in superscience schemes to make a killing on real estate? The one from All-Star Superman who insists that it's the existence of Superman which forces him to do evil?
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Feb 14, 2017 16:32
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dont even fink about it posted:Mods (do we have mods?) really need to make "Actually, X is cool and good" bannable. Nah
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Feb 14, 2017 16:40
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A really cool aspect of the "nihilism" of Eisenberg's Luthor is how he's more bitterly self-aware of the failures and limitations of his faux-utopian vision than a lot of the other versions of the character I've seen. Brainiac points out how a number of Luthor incarnations have this thread of "could fix all the world's problems with his super-genius, but is instead ruled by jealousy, mistrust, and spite toward Superman", but Eisenberg's Luthor can't fix poo poo and he knows it The problem isn't simply that Superman exists (must he?) and thus Luthor's tunneling on him at the expense of pursuing legitimate social progress, it's that Luthor, even if he were acting as the best and purest version possible of the coolguy disrupto-capitalist archetype, would still be uselessly pounding away at apps and OSes to solve imagined problems. It's ideology that traps him, not a specific personal animus (granted, the personal animus of the other Luthor incarnations I've read is almost always grounded at least a little bit in ideology) What I'm trying to say here is that "If you seek his monument, look around you" is the best and most uplifting possible rebuttal to Luthor's poo poo in BvS
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Feb 14, 2017 17:02
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Brainiac Five posted:I'm curious as to what version of Lex Luthor isn't nihilistic. The Silver Age one that invented a cure for cancer solely as a means to kill Superman? The amoral businessman of the Byrne reworking? The one from Superman/Superman Returns who engages in superscience schemes to make a killing on real estate? The one from All-Star Superman who insists that it's the existence of Superman which forces him to do evil? That's an interesting thought, but I disagree with the premise. I don't see Lex as a nihilist in these examples because he still believes in self preservation, and the value of power, fame and intellectualism. Eisenberg was kind of the anti Lex. Lex is usually driven by the idea that humans are superior and he is the most superior specimen humanity has to offer. This makes him a worthy opponent to Superman and someone who can believe he is capable of killing a god. Eisenberg played someone who has always felt small and inferior - first by his father, then by Superman. And he wants to kill Superman for the lulz, or whatever.
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Feb 14, 2017 17:14
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Hey guys. This movie is (I am arguing about) bad (things I don't understand). This movie (these characters) is bad (don't fit my preferred interpretation of them).
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Feb 14, 2017 17:24
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:That's an interesting thought, but I disagree with the premise. I don't see Lex as a nihilist in these examples because he still believes in self preservation, and the value of power, fame and intellectualism. You have a strange definition of nihilism, which normally isn't conflated with suicidal ideation. Luthor typically operates within an ethical context that is obviously a lie- to quote All-Star Superman, "You could've saved the world decades ago if it mattered to you, Luthor." Instead, we see plainly how Superman's existence challenges his sense of himself as superior, by making him inferior in a way that cannot be addressed without supernatural means. We see how Superman's ethical behavior is fundamentally alien to Luthor's view of the world. We see the unrelenting use and abuse of other people as a means to get to Superman. We see existential nihilism, moral nihilism, and even ontological nihilism across the depictions of Lex Luthor.
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Feb 14, 2017 17:24
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Your arguments are all "This character was different so it's bad." It is tedious and useless as a criticism.
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Feb 14, 2017 17:24
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edit: wrong thread
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Feb 14, 2017 17:24
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dont even fink about it posted:It's true, Keaton blew up a clown with cartoon dynamite. Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Anecdotical of course but at one of the biggest retailers here in Mexico, BvS UC has never left the top three of best selling BD since its release. The current number one? Suicide Squad. Suicide Squad, obscure film that no one saw! Star Wars: The Force Awakens, biggest box office bomb in history! These hot takes brought to you by your friends at Kohl's. Brainiac Five posted:I'm curious as to what version of Lex Luthor isn't nihilistic. The Silver Age one that invented a cure for cancer solely as a means to kill Superman? The amoral businessman of the Byrne reworking? The one from Superman/Superman Returns who engages in superscience schemes to make a killing on real estate? The one from All-Star Superman who insists that it's the existence of Superman which forces him to do evil? 
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Feb 14, 2017 17:33
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:Comic book writers have been adapting these characters for decades, playing with different aspects, keeping what works, tossing out what doesn't. The things that really resonates with audiences inevitably get carried over, though. That's why it's all so tiresome when a movie completely skips the important themes and characterizations because the director thinks he knows better. Oh yeah, things like making Batman into a homicidal maniac definitely carried over, Murder Batman has been in more movies than this version you seem to be interested in. By your own admission, this would make Killing People a central part of Batman.
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Feb 14, 2017 17:35
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Brainiac Five posted:You have a strange definition of nihilism, which normally isn't conflated with suicidal ideation. I didn't conflate anything. It was one example and you're deflecting. Anyway, I think we can agree all star superman is magnificent. We will disagree that this movie is trash, and Snyder missed all that Morrison recognized as great about this character. Tezcatlipoca posted:Your arguments are all "This character was different so it's bad." It is tedious and useless as a criticism. That's not my argument at all. My argument is I'm tired of directors thinking they're so clever deconstructing classic characters, especially when what they bring to the table [(edit) isn't even good. I had a whole list of things I disliked about the movie, and people responded to my one complaint about Jesse Eisenberg -- who is a fine actor but was badly cast for this movie. Whale Vomit fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 17:42
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:It's fine that you like this movie and it's great, but I don't want to see more like this. oh so you didn't want to argue, you just said things for no reason Arrr Im a Pirate posted:I'm not interested in a nihilistic Lex Luther, a Draconian Batman, or a reserved superman. This is not what these characters - who are basically the modern equivalent of folk lore and myths - are about. yes, because there's nothing draconian at all about spending the rest of your days training in every possible martial art in order to fight crime in a big scary costume because your parents have been shot, it's a regular thing that anyone would do in that situation, it's pretty much the sane thing and superman needs to get over himself, you're right, what did he do, except killing the last chance there ever was at bringing his birthplace back? what's so scary about realizing your home planet was doomed all this time, no matter the circumstances, and there was nothing you could do about it? what is there to be reserved about when there is literally no one on earth that can understand what you're going through?
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Feb 14, 2017 17:42
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Halloween Jack posted:Keaton's Batman was NOT MY BATMAN. Everyone knows Batman can't just get rid of a bomb that easily. Only some days
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Feb 14, 2017 17:43
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Grendels Dad posted:Oh yeah, things like making Batman into a homicidal maniac definitely carried over, Murder Batman has been in more movies than this version you seem to be interested in. By your own admission, this would make Killing People a central part of Batman. Not really. Batman usually has the rule not to kill. Then directors botch the execution and he ends up looking like a killing machine. Also, the animated series plays this the strictest, and I personally don't think it's coincidence that it's regarded as one of the best interpretations.
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Feb 14, 2017 17:46
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:That's not my argument at all. My argument is I'm tired of directors thinking they're so clever deconstructing classic characters, especially when what they bring to the table is even good. You're offended by your own fantasy of Zack Snyder feeling smug because he thinks he's cleverer than you. That's dumb.
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Feb 14, 2017 17:48
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:Anyway, I think we can agree all star superman is magnificent. Nah.
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Feb 14, 2017 17:50
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:Not really. Batman usually has the rule not to kill. Then directors botch the execution and he ends up looking like a killing machine. Arrr Im a Pirate posted:That's not my argument at all. My argument is I'm tired of directors thinking they're so clever deconstructing classic characters, especially when what they bring to the table [(edit) isn't even good.
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Feb 14, 2017 17:51
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:Not really. Batman usually has the rule not to kill. Then directors botch the execution and he ends up looking like a killing machine. The child's cartoon stressed this more than most other versions? I'm shocked. Did you also know that the Punisher didn't kill anyone in the Spider-Man cartoon? Seriously, I own and adore the entire DCAU, but Batman since his first incarnation and a dozen others has been willing to kill. If that rule is relaxed than it's just a different version of the character, its not a bad thing. I like variety in my Batman, just give me a non-animated version that is actually the world's greatest detective.
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Feb 14, 2017 17:52
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Halloween Jack posted:Watch Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. Don't watch your sad daydream of Zack Snyder laughing at you. Watch the actual movie. I'd watch something better instead.
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Feb 14, 2017 17:56
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:Not really. Batman usually has the rule not to kill. Then directors botch the execution and he ends up looking like a killing machine. Batman kills in Batman 66, Batman 89, Batman Returns, Batman Forever, I'm pretty sure Baleman ices some dudes or at least doesn't care anymore that Catwoman does, plus that lovely two-faced "I don't have to save you!" thing. Interesting definition of "usually". According to your way of viewing Batman, Batman & Robin is truest to what Batman "is really about", whatever that means.
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Feb 14, 2017 17:58
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:I didn't conflate anything. It was one example and you're deflecting. You could have saved yourself entire minutes of effort by saying "I will not be tricked into talking about this movie" at the beginning, dogg.
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Feb 14, 2017 17:58
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You're offended by your own fantasy of Zack Snyder feeling smug because he thinks he's cleverer than you. I'm not offended, I'm just explaining why I think this was a crap movie. In addition to bad writing, bad editing and bad casting, the adaptation was also bad. All of these complaints I explained in detail. You've made some weird assumptions accusations about sympathizing with fascism and inferiority complexes based on my reaction to a Hollywood movie about characters from funny books. Chill.
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Feb 14, 2017 18:00
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:Not really. Batman usually has the rule not to kill. Then directors botch the execution and he ends up looking like a killing machine. do you think it's a coincidence that the movie in which batman is the most callous towards other's lives is also the one that has him a paranoid recluse who parrots dick cheney quotes and is willing to kill a good man and ultimately shows this viewpoint as wrong by the end of the film
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Feb 14, 2017 18:01
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Arrr Im a Pirate posted:I'm not offended, I'm just explaining why I think this was a crap movie. In addition to bad writing, bad editing and bad casting, the adaptation was also bad. All of these complaints I explained in detail. This is the first time in the current discussion you've brought up editing. Please, explain how the editing in Batman V Superman: Dawn Of Justice is bad. You can use whichever cut you'd like.
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Feb 14, 2017 18:03
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Grendels Dad posted:Batman kills in Batman 66, Batman 89, Batman Returns, Batman Forever, I'm pretty sure Baleman ices some dudes or at least doesn't care anymore that Catwoman does, plus that lovely two-faced "I don't have to save you!" thing. Interesting definition of "usually". According to your way of viewing Batman, Batman & Robin is truest to what Batman "is really about", whatever that means. Batman ends up not being Batman any more in the Nolan movies by using a gun to shoot two people and kill them because he had to, getting a real girlfriend, and giving up the stupid Batman crap. So yeah, he definitely does, outside of doing stuff like blowing up the League's base and killing everyone by doing that and slamming Two Face off a building. The cartoon Batman is the most well received because he's the best at everything and total wish fulfillment. He fucks Lois, Zatanna, Wonder Woman, and more people, he's totally the best member of the League even though he has no powers and he dodges Omega beams. His character flaws were brought up and fixed within singular episodes for the most part. Beyond is the only thing that really salvages that character.
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Feb 14, 2017 18:10
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A REAL BIG DOG
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Feb 14, 2017 18:14
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Batman doesn't kill in the cartoon only because of cartoon physics. He loving crushes 2 goons with a giant coin but it cuts to them in cuffs in the next shot because it's a cartoon. The joker uses his hyenas to viciously maul fools, but in the next shot they have bandaids over their wounds because it's a cartoon. Because it's a cartoon.
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