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Kilroy posted:You've spent the last few months defending the sound logic of eternal centrism whenever called upon to do so, and very often when not called upon to do so or explicitly asked not to do so. A central pillar of that logic is that the Democrats don't need the left to win elections, so I don't see what you're so up in arms about. You centrists don't need our votes and you won't have them - godspeed. "gently caress everyone that's not me"
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Feb 15, 2017 18:29
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Neither Perez nor Ellison has the guts to march the coastal elites of West Hollywood, the Castro, and Greenwich Village out to the killing fields. Vote Buttigieg for a real Year Zero!
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Feb 15, 2017 18:30
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Nevvy Z posted:"gently caress everyone that's not me" Hey that is the centrist motto. I mean its why you guys get off to black and white working class barley getting by because they're either on welfare or at walmart and the factory jobs are gone. But you get to pay less for iphones so all's good. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Feb 15, 2017 |
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Feb 15, 2017 18:31
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Brainiac Five posted:Democrats won't represent their REAL base, white Soylent-chugging tech workers who speak for the minorities, and until they do I'll be voting Trotskyist in every election. You have it backwards. Democrats' inability to play to any base other than wealthy urban professionals will continue to depress turnout against most of the country who are not that. Which is also why they lost the election in the first place, by chasing those votes. So I won't blame anyone who isn't doing fine in a white collar office job for not voting for them.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:34
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm not sure how you can look at Tom Perez, policy nerd and darling of unions, and determine that the DWS types have won, but ok. For the last time--Perez wouldn't even be in the race if the Obama people hadn't asked him to run out of "fear" that Keith Ellison would become chairman. It's not because of what Perez believes, it's who he represents--the establishment trying desperately to cut the insurgency's knees out from under it by installing a relic of the old guard. No, he won't be DWS redux, but he's no less likely than she is to prop up an outdated system that's a proven loser.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:34
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Crowsbeak posted:Hey that is the cntrist motto. I mean its why you guys get off to black and white working class barley getting by because they're either on welfare or at walmart and the factory jobs are gone. But you get to pay less for iphones so all's good. I'm not a centrist and it's very hosed up of you to accuse people of this kind of poo poo because they wanted a competent politician instead of a transparently corrupt businessman as president.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:35
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Fiction posted:You have it backwards. Democrats' inability to play to any base other than wealthy urban professionals will continue to depress turnout against most of the country who are not that. Which is also why they lost the election in the first place, by chasing those votes. So I won't blame anyone who isn't doing fine in a white collar office job for not voting for them. Shut up, Hillaryman entryist pigdog. Thy efforts to interrupt my Stirnerite Egoist Meditation Technique will avail thou naught, for Nihilist Communism shields me.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:36
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Alter Ego posted:For the last time--Perez wouldn't even be in the race if the Obama people hadn't asked him to run out of "fear" that Keith Ellison would become chairman. Ok, but we've reached the point where "a relic of the old guard" is a pro-union member of the previous, popular liberal administration. The Overton window is already shifting. I think we're also understating just how awful DWS was. Besides that, with how little we know of what's happening in the process for sure, how do we even know Perez is actually winning? How do we lobby for this? Who should we be calling/emailing? We got one tweet and now the sky is falling, we're doomed.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:37
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Lightning Knight posted:Ok, but we've reached the point where "a relic of the old guard" is a pro-union member of the previous, popular liberal administration. The Overton window is already shifting. embrace that failure is inevitable in all things and that the correct action is to live in an artisanal barrel in a forest clearing, and to say nothing but "Bernie would have won," for speaking God's Truth is the only just speech
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Feb 15, 2017 18:39
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Lightning Knight posted:
This I can agree with. We tend to surrender all hope far too easily.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:39
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Brainiac Five posted:Shut up, Hillaryman entryist pigdog. Thy efforts to interrupt my Stirnerite Egoist Meditation Technique will avail thou naught, for Nihilist Communism shields me. So you agree that the Dems' attempts to nickel and dime demographics into victories by portraying themselves as fiscal conservatives to court suburban Republican voters (as they tried in 2016) have failed miserably?
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Feb 15, 2017 18:40
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm not sure how you can look at Tom Perez, policy nerd and darling of unions, and determine that the DWS types have won, but ok.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:40
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Nevvy Z posted:I'm not a centrist and it's very hosed up of you to accuse people of this kind of poo poo because they wanted a competent politician instead of a transparently corrupt businessman as president. I just tell it as it is. Also competent people don't have private email servers going against protocals and know that if they need hispanic voters they campaign for their votes, and that states with republican governors you want to go for you should probably be campaigned in. Rather then just attending fundraisers in Hollywood. Also I tell it as it is. As Jefferson Clay was wmore ththen happy to throw black and hispanic males under the bus because Abuela lost. You defended him. So there is also that. Really its just sad you guys try to pretend you have a ounce of empathy in you. All you want are cheap iphones.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:41
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Also Keith specifically asked people not to call or pressure officials to vote for him. I mean, it won't matter who is DNC chair either way since there will need to be robust voter participation at a state level no matter who is handing out the funds. It's just more likely for progressive challenges to get funding and succeed if Ellison is in there IMO.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:42
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Kilroy posted:Perez is their candidate regardless of whatever his actual policy positions are (which I do not have a problem with). Whatever he thinks he wants to do as chair, once he's there he will toe the party line for the centrists or they will undermine him every chance they get, and unlike Ellison I don't think he'll fight back (actually I think it's a moot point because he happily toe the establishment line, but whatever). I don't know that Ellison would actually fare hugely better, tbh. We're making a lot of assumptions about how much power a single person has over the system. One change in leadership does not a revolution make.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:42
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Crowsbeak posted:I just tell it as it is. Also competent people don't have private email servers going against protocals and know that if they need hispanic voters they campaign for their votes, and that states with republican governors you want to go for you should probably be campaigned in. Rather then just attending fundraisers in Hollywood. Also I tell it as it is. As Jefferson Clay was wmore ththen happy to throw black and hispanic males under the bus because Abuela lost. You defended him. So there is also that. Really its just sad you guys try to pretend you have a ounce of empathy in you. All you want are cheap iphones. okay real talk for a second here - i seriously think this guy is a markov bot because every post ive ever seen from him looks like its been bolted together procedurally
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Feb 15, 2017 18:43
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Fiction posted:So you agree that the Dems' attempts to nickel and dime demographics into victories by portraying themselves as fiscal conservatives to court suburban Republican voters (as they tried in 2016) have failed miserably? Your Bolshevik Hitleryistite efforts to dilute my raw hypersexual purity are as liberal as rejecting NAFTA for its imperial inclinations rather than its corruption of our precious bodily fluids with Canado-Mexican semen.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:43
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paranoid randroid posted:okay real talk for a second here - i seriously think this guy is a markov bot because every post ive ever seen from him looks like its been bolted together procedurally I think there's two of them.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:44
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Fiction posted:Also Keith specifically asked people not to call or pressure officials to vote for him. I mean, it won't matter who is DNC chair either way since there will need to be robust voter participation at a state level no matter who is handing out the funds. It's just more likely for progressive challenges to get funding and succeed if Ellison is in there IMO. So... we should just sit and do nothing? That's kind of stupid.  I agree that Ellison in charge is probably better for progressive primary challenges, but I don't know if it would make a huge difference as compared to bottom up organization. Really it seems to me that regardless of who wins progressivism needs an alternate, parallel organizational structure that is loosely allied with but not beholden directly to the party.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:45
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Alter Ego posted:This I can agree with. We tend to surrender all hope far too easily. the people that vote for chair are all party hacks so perez being the likely winner isn't too far of a conclusion to draw
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Feb 15, 2017 18:47
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JeffersonClay posted:You are extremely dumb and apparently proud of it. Trump thanks you for your useful idiocy. My vote doesn't matter anyway cause the dems don't give a poo poo so why should I? Lightning Knight posted:Perez wants to do the same strategy that was generally preferred, a 50 state focus and more support for smaller races. He doesn't set platform from DNC chair. If the DNC was smart it would matter. Also, Perez will work to get more lovely TPP loving dems in power if he can, so he may not set the platform on its own but he will influence it a lot.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:47
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paranoid randroid posted:okay real talk for a second here - i seriously think this guy is a markov bot because every post ive ever seen from him looks like its been bolted together procedurally Sorry I get a little pissy with people who lie through their teeth. Like Nezzy and Clay. Lightning Knight posted:So... we should just sit and do nothing? That's kind of stupid. DSA. I am involved in the one in Duluth, and am prepping to get involved in the Democrats at UMD. Act like the tea party, primary filth like Corey Booker and other centrist Idols. When the centrists whine and say we're going to lose the party the elections always remind them of 2016.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:48
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Condiv posted:If the DNC was smart it would matter. Also, Perez will work to get more lovely TPP loving dems in power if he can, so he may not set the platform on its own but he will influence it a lot. I'm not sure why you're so convinced that TPP is still going to be on the table in four years, but ok.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:49
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Condiv posted:My vote doesn't matter anyway cause the dems don't give a poo poo so why should I? Agreed, burn down the traitor SEIU for endorsing the Trans-Pacific Black Helicopter and MIB Partnership and its living avatar, Thomas Neoliberal Perez.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:49
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Crowsbeak posted:Well you're the guys claiming you want to defeat the facsist. Yet you don't want to do anything different to defeat him, and then wonder why we don't show up. Maybe you need to be willing to give us a inch. Maybe offer real change to a sick system rather then saying it was fine b before we got Orange Peron into office. I'll support Ellison for Governor in 2018. So he can run for president in 2020. Then we can ensure you centrists understand who actually represents the party. (Its us, not you losers who cheered a loving financier like Tim Kaine as the VP) Instead of primarying Mark "close tax loopholes for the rich and the corporations" Dayton in spite of his solid progressive record, why not work on booting out Collin "Founder of the Blue Dog Coalition" Peterson, you unbelievable moron? You're talking about booting a reliable progressive out of some idiotic anti-establishment sentiment while your fairly blue state has two Republican reps, a Blue Dog rep, and Republican majorities in both houses of the state legislature. RaySmuckles posted:i feel like this is a really harsh indictment of the left. the left is weak and directionless because the levers of power have been used to destroy all of the left's traditional institutions. Where do you think unions came from in the first place? Organized labor wasn't created by the government - it was organized by the people, from the bottom up. The protections unions enjoyed in their heyday weren't generously given to them by the government - they were concessions extracted from the government after hard-fought battles, often physical as well as political. Sure, unions are facing challenges today as the protections they won back then are now being rolled back...but that's nothing compared to the challenges they faced back in labor's heyday, when not only did they lack those protections but the Supreme Court also said it would be unconstitutional to grant them those protections! The same is true for campaign finance laws. Back in the Gilded Age (a time of historic inequality), campaign finance was basically unregulated, with banks and corporations being able to donate unlimited amounts directly to candidates with no disclosure requirements whatsoever. Campaign finance restrictions came in response to progressive activism and public outrage at candidates who were more and more obviously in the pockets of big business. These institutions were not graciously given to the left to allow them to fight on an even stage - they were hard-won concessions that did not exist until the left organized and fought for them. The left has to build - and defend - its own institutions. It can't rely on top-down structures if it wants to succeed.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:51
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Brainiac Five posted:Agreed, burn down the traitor SEIU for endorsing the Trans-Pacific Black Helicopter and MIB Partnership and its living avatar, Thomas Neoliberal Perez. Did you accidentally sarcastically make the good point that big unions haven't had workers' best interest at heart for a decent while? Keep following that logic, you're almost there!
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Feb 15, 2017 18:53
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm not sure why you're so convinced that TPP is still going to be on the table in four years, but ok. I'm convinced that a clone will be on the table cause it's what dems want.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:54
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Crowsbeak posted:No he's bad because you like seeing black and white workers forced to live on welfare because of your precious trade agreements. To bad Republicans are going to pass more anti lgbt stuff. But then your precious trade agreements had to stand. So you're a hysterical protectionist. Gotcha.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:55
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Lightning Knight posted:Edit: also, readingatwork, you live in California. Nobody cares if you vote third party to protest. You're right. Guess the Dems don't need my support after all... On an unrelated note when was Dianne Feinstein's next term up?
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Feb 15, 2017 18:55
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Condiv posted:I'm convinced that a clone will be on the table cause it's what dems want. I mean, possibly. But you're talking minimum four years in the future, for a trade deal that was very high profile and widely disliked. That's a long time to try and force the negotiation of a better deal, or block it outright, depending on your ideological stance towards international trade. In the meantime the fascists control every level of congress. Excuse me for not caring as much about Democratic positions on hypothetical trade deals at the present. ^ I mean, you can go make jerk off motions on a hill towards D.C. and it would make just as much of a difference. I thought Feinstein was retiring.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:56
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm not sure why you're so convinced that TPP is still going to be on the table in four years, but ok. Yeah I strongly suspect that if the economy is going to be sent for a tailspin by 2019 no one, not even the idiot centrist dems will be openly singing about trade. Main Paineframe posted:Instead of primarying Mark "close tax loopholes for the rich and the corporations" Dayton in spite of his solid progressive record, why not work on booting out Collin "Founder of the Blue Dog Coalition" Peterson, you unbelievable moron? You're talking about booting a reliable progressive out of some idiotic anti-establishment sentiment while your fairly blue state has two Republican reps, a Blue Dog rep, and Republican majorities in both houses of the state legislature. Main Paineframe posted:Where do you think unions came from in the first place? Organized labor wasn't created by the government - it was organized by the people, from the bottom up. The protections unions enjoyed in their heyday weren't generously given to them by the government - they were concessions extracted from the government after hard-fought battles, often physical as well as political. Sure, unions are facing challenges today as the protections they won back then are now being rolled back...but that's nothing compared to the challenges they faced back in labor's heyday, when not only did they lack those protections but the Supreme Court also said it would be unconstitutional to grant them those protections! Thats what I am going to do. I am also going to ensure that centrists are not seen in the party leadership for at least a generation.Centrists have shown they just want poor Americans to suffer and therefore deserve no seat at the table. Ogmius815 posted:So you're a hysterical protectionist. Gotcha. No, but I also no that promising more trade agreements drives down voters in the Midwest and so its best to drop them as issues. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Feb 15, 2017 |
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Feb 15, 2017 18:57
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Ogmius815 posted:So you're a hysterical protectionist. Gotcha. Opposing the sloppy blow job to capital that is the Democrats' current stance on trade doesn't make you a protectionist.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:57
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you see NAFTA killed jobs which is why job losses didn't start until GWB's inauguration
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Feb 15, 2017 18:57
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Main Paineframe posted:Instead of primarying Mark "close tax loopholes for the rich and the corporations" Dayton in spite of his solid progressive record, why not work on booting out Collin "Founder of the Blue Dog Coalition" Peterson, you unbelievable moron? You're talking about booting a reliable progressive out of some idiotic anti-establishment sentiment while your fairly blue state has two Republican reps, a Blue Dog rep, and Republican majorities in both houses of the state legislature. Because Dayton might not run again? He has prostate cancer.
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Feb 15, 2017 18:58
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You should be able to acknowledge that trade deals we have historically made were bad without being opposed to the idea of trade deals in principle. ^ 
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Feb 15, 2017 18:58
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:you see NAFTA killed jobs which is why job losses didn't start until GWB's inauguration But that can't be true. My gut and common sense tell me that trade deals are a disaster! They KILL jobs!
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Feb 15, 2017 18:59
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Kilroy posted:You've spent the last few months defending the sound logic of eternal centrism whenever called upon to do so, and very often when not called upon to do so or explicitly asked not to do so. A central pillar of that logic is that the Democrats don't need the left to win elections, so I don't see what you're so up in arms about. You centrists don't need our votes and you won't have them - godspeed. Perez isn't a centrist. The 2016 democratic platform is not centrist. The positions articulated by Perez and the 2016 platform are not electoral liabilities, and there's zero evidence democrats would benefit from shifting further left. Your "give me exactly what I want or I'll throw a tantrum" strategy got you nothing but Trump in 2016 and will get you exactly the same if you try it again.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:00
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Alter Ego posted:For the last time--Perez wouldn't even be in the race if the Obama people hadn't asked him to run out of "fear" that Keith Ellison would become chairman. No, the reason Obama's people asked Perez to run is because they think his ties to organized labor and Hispanic communities are more important than Ellison's ties to college progressives and Muslim organizations. readingatwork posted:You're right. Guess the Dems don't need my support after all... Feinstein has beaten primary challenges literally every single election she's had for that seat, and in 2010 California voters created a jungle primary system that makes it far more difficult to primary her from the left than it's ever been before, so I'm sure she's really worried about her next election.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:01
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JeffersonClay posted:Your "give me exactly what I want or I'll throw a tantrum" strategy got you nothing but Trump in 2016 Who do you think exactly in the party is the one executing this strategy and is responsible for Trump? I'll give you a big hint: it's not the progressive wing.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:01
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:you see NAFTA killed jobs which is why job losses didn't start until GWB's inauguration Yeah now I want you to go to Indiana and Ohio and tell everyone there that Nafta made their life better. Lightning Knight posted:You should be able to acknowledge that trade deals we have historically made were bad without being opposed to the idea of trade deals in principle. Not suggesting we should be. On the other hand, trumpeting them doesn't get you votes. Which is what the centrists claim they are all about.
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Feb 15, 2017 19:01
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