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First Contact was the best TNG movie, but all TNG movies are bad. First Contact is held back by the Borg Queen. Everything about that is awful. It would have been TNG's Wrath of Khan type of fan adoration if it was the Enterprise-D getting assimilated by the Borg and Picard was unwilling to blow it up when everyone tells him it doesn't loving matter and the right thing to do. Then instead of everything working out, actually blow up the damned ship. Zesty fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 01:53
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Zesty Crab Legs posted:First Contact was the best TNG movie, but all TNG movies are bad. Why did the Borg Queen have to be so...moist?
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Feb 21, 2017 01:55
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Kibbles n Shits posted:The guy that played Mark Twain was spot on as far as looks but did Twain sound like Beavis in real life?
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Feb 21, 2017 01:56
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Galvanik posted:The SFDebris guy's theory is that the Trek actor was imitating another actor who was imitating another one, and so on, way back to the original actor named William Gillette who knew Twain and would do impersonations of him. Each successive performer would then impersonate the previous impersonation, focusing more and more on the verbal ticks, until it became and outlandish parody of the way Twain presumably spoke. That's pretty awesome actually. It's like a game of telephone dating back over a century.
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Feb 21, 2017 02:00
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Mister Kingdom posted:Why did the Borg Queen have to be so...moist? Picard keeps probing her territory, trying to open a way inside. She's got her fingers all over Picard's lady, making her hot, making her do things.
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Feb 21, 2017 02:03
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Beachcomber posted:Picard keeps probing her territory, trying to open a way inside. She's got her fingers all over Picard's lady, making her hot, making her do things. The Borg Queen tries covering herself up, but it's too late. He's seen everything.
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Feb 21, 2017 02:04
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Galvanik posted:The SFDebris guy's theory is that the Trek actor was imitating another actor who was imitating another one, and so on, way back to the original actor named William Gillette who knew Twain and would do impersonations of him. Each successive performer would then impersonate the previous impersonation, focusing more and more on the verbal ticks, until it became and outlandish parody of the way Twain presumably spoke. This does actually kind of sound like a toned down version of the TNG actors; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqHPN4lW6tI
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Feb 21, 2017 02:07
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Yeah Star Trek has this problem of making their supervillains into desperate horny sex beggars: the Borg, Species 8472, Q, etc. They introduce some awesomely powerful unstoppable alien force that the crew barely manages to beat with crazy over-the-top shenanigans, but those guys were awesome and we want to bring them back so it's either go even more over-the-top like Stargate and those replicator robots, or do something """"unpredictable""" (beg for sex).
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Feb 21, 2017 02:12
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah Star Trek has this problem of making their supervillains into desperate horny sex beggars: the Borg, Species 8472, Q, etc. They introduce some awesomely powerful unstoppable alien force that the crew barely manages to beat with crazy over-the-top shenanigans, but those guys were awesome and we want to bring them back so it's either go even more over-the-top like Stargate and those replicator robots, or do something """"unpredictable""" (beg for sex). Gene would have wanted the Borg Queen to be hot.
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Feb 21, 2017 02:19
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Why do all these Federation people refuse to believe in the Prophets even in Season 5. Multiple officers have met them and submitted reports about it, there are documented incidents of the Prophets sending people through time at will, Sisko proves he's getting information from them by finding ruins that were lost for 10,000 years, and then everyone's like "nah you can't be telling the future because I don't believe in Bajoran religious horseshit". Starfleet encounters incomprehensibly powerful beings and time travellers and future people with knowledge of the future all the drat time. When Q whisked Picard off to the Delta Quadrant to introduce him to the Borg, when he got back was Starfleet like "pffffft get this hocus pocus poo poo out of here Picard, crossing the galaxy in 10 seconds okay Moses, I bet on the way back this Q fella helped you part the Denebian Red Sea too right"
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Feb 21, 2017 02:22
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WickedHate posted:IIRC the typical "American" accent is actually the original British one and it's the ones across the pond who've changed. Nah, there never has been one "English" or "American" accent. The New England accent(s) bear a strong resemblance to old East Anglian accents and some of the Southern accents retain features of various English and Scottish dialects that have largely died out in Britain, but "standard English" didn't exist during early colonization and always has the question of "whose standard?" in any case. There are still some islands in the Carolinas where people sound weirdly Elizabethan to modern ears, but the truth is that dialects are always changing with features coming and going and coming back, so saying anyone sounds more like the "original" than anyone else is usually pretty silly. The Englishmen who insist that they're speaking the "proper" English are still assholes though because there's really no such thing and prestige dialects (like BBC English or the "Oxbridge" accent) tend to be affected and pretentious with very little to do with how most people actually talk.
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Feb 21, 2017 02:25
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VitalSigns posted:Why do all these Federation people refuse to believe in the Prophets even in Season 5. Multiple officers have met them and submitted reports about it, there are documented incidents of the Prophets sending people through time at will, Sisko proves he's getting information from them by finding ruins that were lost for 10,000 years, and then everyone's like "nah you can't be telling the future because I don't believe in Bajoran religious horseshit". It's because it's a major theme of the show, so they have to keep up the religious disbelief angle, even if by this point everyone should be on board. If everyone is on board the show boils down to the Dominion War and I guess occasionally Quark is a nuisance?
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Feb 21, 2017 03:00
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I bought all four of the TNG movies, after having watched them all long ago, because I had $20 to burn and I used them to compare notes to what people were saying in The Fifty-Year Mission. Even then I am in no hurry to load up the Insurrection blu ray. I think that not enough time has passed for most the people involved to be honest and communicative about what happened on those movies, and the book really blows through them. That, and for better or worse, the best TNG movie is less culturally significant than the worst TOS movie.
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Feb 21, 2017 03:07
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Mister Kingdom posted:Why did the Borg Queen have to be so...moist? To engender feelings of being disturbed by her being moist.
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Feb 21, 2017 03:43
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Mark Twain apparently experimented with early voice dictation but none of his recordings survived. The best we have is one of his old neighbors doing an impersonation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqHPN4lW6tI
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Feb 21, 2017 04:18
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Orv posted:It's because it's a major theme of the show, so they have to keep up the religious disbelief angle, even if by this point everyone should be on board. If everyone is on board the show boils down to the Dominion War and I guess occasionally Quark is a nuisance? Yeah okay, but they should have set it up better. The whole disbelief versus faith question and the limitations of scientific inquiry makes a whole lot more sense when there aren't piles of well-documented evidence that the beings in question absolutely 100% exist and possess the abilities attributed to them. Especially when the abilities are poo poo that are known to be physically possible and not supernatural at all: reading minds, knowing the future, seeing far away places and events, taking control of corporeal bodies, etc. They could have made Sisko's revelations and spiritual journey a lot more personal with any physical effects open to interpretation so it makes at least some sense that other people think he's crazy, but there's so much proof that the Starfleet types look like flat earther idiots who have travelled around and still don't believe it. Dax has met the Prophets and she met a dude they sent to the future and she got sent back in time because of them and she's all "pfft you believe in the Prophets? Lol."
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Feb 21, 2017 04:24
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VitalSigns posted:They could have made Sisko's revelations and spiritual journey a lot more personal with any physical effects open to interpretation so it makes at least some sense that other people think he's crazy, but there's so much proof that the Starfleet types look like flat earther idiots who have travelled around and still don't believe it. Dax has met the Prophets and she met a dude they sent to the future and she got sent back in time because of them and she's all "pfft you believe in the Prophets? Lol." And she ended up being killed by a Pah-wraith!
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Feb 21, 2017 04:26
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I mean don't get me wrong, I agree with you on every point, it's one of the weaker parts of DS9, but Trek has a pretty long track record of situational beliefs, not to mention ethics. Which isn't supposed to be a "Eh it's bad but I'm used to it argument," but I guess that's sort of a point I've reached with it. Starfleet bigots, so what?  E: Which makes episodes like Janeway's quest to revive Kes even funnier, honestly. Orv fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 04:36
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God the Hirogen deserve better.
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Feb 21, 2017 05:09
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Orv posted:God the Hirogen deserve better. Not really, we already had Predator 1 and 2 Predator knock-offs are a lovely gimmick. Almost as bad as the Kazon being Mad Max biker gangs in space. Voyager made Mad Max biker gangs in space boring, which is ridiculous.
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Feb 21, 2017 05:25
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Hot Dog Day #82 posted:Building on that a bit, back in medieval England (a generation or two after William's invasion) there are stories about the peasents basically being unable to talk with the village a few hours down the river since the regional accents were so wild. I wish there was a way to hear what life was like before the radio, it would have been fascinating to hear all of the accents that must have come together during the civil war or the gold rush. If you watch the PBS Documentary about Prohibition it has lots of clips with sound of people in the 20s talking, and its really interesting for example Figerello LaGuardia and Al Smith, both New Yorkers, sound completely different. Not like they're from different parts of the city, but from different countries. There's other accents that are from the moon as well in there. Some accents survive purely as parody, like the Mid-Atlantic accent, which would be what rich women in the Simpsons tend to have, very clipped and precise. Come to think of it, Admiral Satei had it in the Drumhead. Hah hah, Star Trek tie in. Actually that also bugs me how basically everyone in Star Trek that appears has the name of some famous scientist, writer or composer. Hello this is Doctor Hesienburg, an expert on warp drive, and meet Captain Shackleton, commander of the USS Akagi. Babylon 5 did this too, having Robert Foxworthy be General Hague. Really? The commander of the BEF and one of the major architects of the Allied side of WW1? Didn't want to call him Foch becauase that would be too obvious? Orv posted:God the Hirogen deserve better. I like when the Klingons invade the Nazi holoprogam. What I don't like is the Holo Nazi making the Hirogen feel good about his German heritage by the most basic interpretation of the Nazi flag. "White, for the purity of German Blood" he says, you know that's easier than looking up to why those colours where chosen, but then that would have made the writers stay after 4.
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Feb 21, 2017 05:27
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MrJacobs posted:Not really, we already had Predator 1 and 2 Predator knock-offs are a lovely gimmick. Almost as bad as the Kazon being Mad Max biker gangs in space. Voyager made Mad Max biker gangs in space boring, which is ridiculous. I view Hirogen as less of a Predator knock-off (though they absolutely are) and more as Klingons with actual motivations besides a vague and ever-changing sense of honor. E: Though I guess that's really just the main Alpha. Also their appearance in Elite Force makes me fonder of them than they probably deserve. Orv fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 05:32
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Orv posted:I view Hirogen as less of a Predator knock-off (though they absolutely are) and more as Klingons with actual motivations besides a vague and ever-changing sense of honor. I liked them in their first appearance, but then it got to be loving stupid when they tried to convert the whole ship into a hologram, and then they became retarded when they created holograms without an emergency shut off. God that episode sucked, the Doctor literally commits treason and everyone is cool with it. MrJacobs fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 05:39
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That's what I mean. There are places you could take the Hirogen that would have been really cool and not just Predators sans serial number, but I guess that would require them to be on a different show.
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Feb 21, 2017 05:45
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If I remember correctly when the Hirogen first show up they are like 8 feet tall, but that sort of thing is hard/expensive so in every subsequent appearance they were just normal tall dudes. Also I loved the realization that TNG Twain was XFiles deep throat.
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Feb 21, 2017 05:53
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Yeah. The place I'm getting that image from also raises a fun point in that in Hunters the big guys didn't do much acting other shouting and looming, and while The Killing Game was bad, both the main Hirogen were actually decent actors.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:03
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MrJacobs posted:I liked them in their first appearance, but then it got to be loving stupid when they tried to convert the whole ship into a hologram, and then they became retarded when they created holograms without an emergency shut off. God that episode sucked, the Doctor literally commits treason and everyone is cool with it. Light treason seems to be completely accepted in Star fleet, as long as somehow it can be decided that you are still a good, loyal person (maybe mind melds off-camera?) I think I once counted at least 8 separate times that data took over the enterprise or his abilities posed a grave threat to the crew.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:05
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Bucswabe posted:Light treason seems to be completely accepted in Star fleet, as long as somehow it can be decided that you are still a good, loyal person (maybe mind melds off-camera?) It's a good thing "Measure of a Man" took place in season 2 instead of season 7. Data would have been sent to be dissected just so they knew why he kept trying to kill the crew.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:16
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Bucswabe posted:Light treason seems to be completely accepted in Star fleet, as long as somehow it can be decided that you are still a good, loyal person (maybe mind melds off-camera?) Yeah I'm showing my bf DS9 right now, and in the opening of the episode immediately after Let He Who Is Without Sin, he asks "hey why isn't Worf in prison for treason?" Cassidy Yates went to jail for less.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:17
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VitalSigns posted:Why do all these Federation people refuse to believe in the Prophets even in Season 5. Multiple officers have met them and submitted reports about it, there are documented incidents of the Prophets sending people through time at will, Sisko proves he's getting information from them by finding ruins that were lost for 10,000 years, and then everyone's like "nah you can't be telling the future because I don't believe in Bajoran religious horseshit". I didn't believe in the prophets and still don't. loving space gods? Nope. Q owns though
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Feb 21, 2017 06:21
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah I'm showing my bf DS9 right now, and in the opening of the episode immediately after Let He Who Is Without Sin, he asks "hey why isn't Worf in prison for treason?" Or at least demoted if not kicked out. You let some strangers sabotage a planet's weather system because you can't handle the idea of a vacation. The first duty of every officer is to not let people play with the planetary thermostat  Dax doesn't even leave him. It's ok honey I know relaxation makes you extremely upset because you need to be a hardass 26/7 even though a Klingon ship is like a nonstop frat party.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:34
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Robert Hewitt Wolfe regards this as his least favorite episode out of all of those that he wrote or co-wrote. Ira Steven Behr has commented that if he had to choose one episode he could go back and refine, it would be this one; "It was supposed to be a show that looked at 24th century morals and sexuality. We pretty much failed on both counts." (AOL chat, 1997) Similarly, Ronald D. Moore says "it's a show we all wish we had a second crack at." Director Rene Auberjonois comments "it was not my happiest time as a director." Even Alexander Siddig disliked the episode, particularly his own performance. Nana Visitor had given birth to their son the night before he shot the scene where he and Leeta break up, and according to Siddig, he had never been so unfocused on-set as he was when shooting that scene. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion) Ron Moore also commented: "I think everyone looks back at the Risa show and says, 'I wish we could take another crack at that one'. It was supposed to be a fun romp of an episode, but just didn't come through for whatever reason. I still don't think it was a bad idea, but it could have been a really cool, really fun episode. It was a great idea to go to Risa with Worf and Dax. It just didn't quite come together". ("Writing Across the Universe", Star Trek Monthly, issue 29) In the eyes of Robert Hewitt Wolfe and Ira Steven Behr, the main reason the episode failed was because of restrictions placed upon how open they could be about sexuality. This was a show that was supposed to be examining sex, but it wasn't allowed to actually show any sex. As Wolfe explains, "kids watch this show, and in some markets it airs at five o'clock. That meant we couldn't show skin, so there was no sex. It became a totally asexual show, and once that happened the whole thing got flushed down the toilet because none of it made sense anymore." (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)
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Feb 21, 2017 06:41
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MrJacobs posted:It's a good thing "Measure of a Man" took place in season 2 instead of season 7. Data would have been sent to be dissected just so they knew why he kept trying to kill the crew. I still say that if Starfleet drummed out every person who ever got mind-influenced by some alien, they'd have a hell of a time keeping their ships manned. Space is hosed up, what are you gonna do about it?
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Feb 21, 2017 06:42
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah I'm showing my bf DS9 right now, and in the opening of the episode immediately after Let He Who Is Without Sin, he asks "hey why isn't Worf in prison for treason?" I thought that was the episode were the Klingons set Worf up to destroy a ship full of civilians, but nope, dumb Risa episode. They did have Worf face consequences for his actions in other episodes. That one where Dax is injured and they're sent to go fetch a spy, and Worf goes back to Dax and the spy is killed, Sisko tells Worf that he will never get his own command because of that action.
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Feb 21, 2017 06:52
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WampaLord posted:In the eyes of Robert Hewitt Wolfe and Ira Steven Behr, the main reason the episode failed was because of restrictions placed upon how open they could be about sexuality. This was a show that was supposed to be examining sex, but it wasn't allowed to actually show any sex. As Wolfe explains, "kids watch this show, and in some markets it airs at five o'clock. That meant we couldn't show skin, so there was no sex. It became a totally asexual show, and once that happened the whole thing got flushed down the toilet because none of it made sense anymore." (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion) I really wonder what the hell the writers were thinking - based on this and other comments, I get the impression they kinda wanted to do an episode where we'd sympathize with Worf and the no-fun brigade, and portray Risa as just too decadent and hedonistic for right-thinking people. I honestly think the episode we got was probably actually an improvement over what they had in mind - Star Trek's always been a bit conservative about sexuality, but that's better than being out-and-out reactionary...
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Feb 21, 2017 07:03
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Angry Salami posted:I really wonder what the hell the writers were thinking - based on this and other comments, I get the impression they kinda wanted to do an episode where we'd sympathize with Worf and the no-fun brigade That's exactly what I'm thinking too, these comments are NOT the reason the episode failed at all.
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Feb 21, 2017 07:08
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I don't think it's inconsistent for Starfleet to treat the wormhole aliens are powerful and enigmatic wormhole aliens rather than actual religious figures. Even if the Bajoran religion IS correct by random chance, the Prophets are still competing for mindspace with Q, Kevin Uxbridge, that dude from the Squire of Gothos, Lucien, Apollo, Abraham Lincoln, that slinky chick who was going to claim a planet, that THING Spock killed with a Bird of Prey's dual heavy cannons, V'ger, the whale probe, and that dude who made a giant Spock.
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Feb 21, 2017 07:17
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I'm not complaining that they don't worship the Prophets. The Prophets seem less powerful than a ton of other godlike beings they've met, for example the Prophets are mortal and the Federation has the ability to exterminate them if they want (that was the Pa Wraith's plan when it took over Keiko* and forced O'Brien to turn the station into a Wormhole Alien Killing Gun). It's that they don't believe Sisko is getting information about the future from them even though Starfleet knows time travel exists, knows the Wormhole Aliens have this ability, and knows the accuracy of the information they've provided him before was consistently verifiably correct. *Btw this episode was great, (a) because any "get-hosed O'Brien" episode is hilarious but also (b) Keiko made fun of TNG technobabble and the resolution made sense and fit within the premises of the episode rather than being a last-second technobabble rear end-pull.
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Feb 21, 2017 07:29
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I don't think anyone in starfleet thinks the wormhole aliens don't exist or don't have time powers, they just don't worhship them as gods and assume a lot of bajoran religion is too heavily "interpreted" to be relied on. Starfleet still being incredulous when Sisko says the prophets told him to do X or warn them about Y is a bit silly, but they don't really have the direct experience he has and they can be a bit cryptic with their prophesies. The whole episode with the hot spoonhead scientists touches on that.
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Feb 21, 2017 07:29
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It would make more sense for them to take the approach of "okay sure, we believe you when you say they told you this, but how do we know they're not trying to play us here?"
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Feb 21, 2017 07:55
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