|
willie_dee posted:None of that looks real to me... the BJJ fighters are massively undersized and don't know how to strike, the TKD guy is too busy throwing stupid kicks from miles away. It doesn't look like real MMA fights because they're not. I don't think we need perfect conditions to be able to make evaluations. The BJJ vs Aikido can be regarded as grappling only -- we can give Aikido leeway in the same way that we treat BJJ as incomplete for striking. Even if you knew the TKD guy was gonna be throwing all sorts of kicks, I liked the fact that the Aikido guy had answers for those kicks that he applied outside of drills.
|
# ? Feb 22, 2017 23:53 |
|
|
# ? May 14, 2024 07:42 |
|
CommonShore posted:I've taught and helped design a few self-defense seminars for teenagers. I go with the fatherdog classic: Right, I mean I've heard it broken down that way before. I guess, I get how that works in terms of relevance, that each notch down is less applicable and useful for a self defence situation than the previous. And it makes sense for people who train. For people who don't though train or run though, it effectively becomes Situational Awareness > Deescallation > nope > going back in time and training for several years Like, I think when most people think of self defense they imagine the plan as 1) try to deescalate 2) physically resist and free myself or briefly incapacitate with a groin strike or elbow 3) scene missing 4) safety Either you cause substantial damage such that the person stays down, which takes being a martial artist, or you get a brief opportunity to outrun them, which takes being a runner. Among the people interested in learning self defense the audience is probably next to none from column A and not necessarily many from column B either.
|
# ? Feb 22, 2017 23:57 |
|
Wheat Loaf posted:So I've been going to BJJ for about a year now. It is hard to believe. I have been trying to keep up with my rolling but lately I'm running into a couple of consistent problems. The first is that I always seem to set myself up for armbars from virtually any position almost without fail, but that's obviously just something I have to keep working on. Starting from standing is by far the best, otherwise start from a position you want to work on. Actually trying to do "takedowns" when you're both on your knees is dumb as poo poo.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 00:00 |
You really don't need to be a runner, in 90% of self defense situations people would rather not look like a goddamn lunatic instead of chasing after a person sprinting all out. Anyone who grew up in the hood knows this. Just loving run, you're probably not getting chased unless someone has a grudge.
|
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 00:02 |
|
LionArcher posted:
Part 1...I mean lol you can't know that for sure but I'm glad that you have confidence in your abilities... Part 2...I was a bouncer at college bars as well that liked to over serve and in the 3 years I did that job I got into less than a handful of altercations. Probably has a lot more to do with you or your staff than your patrons. We broke up quite a few fights, I've been called every name in the book and had people want to fight me countless times. Not that many people are throwing punches unless you're a oval office. KildarX posted:A gun is also a stupid idea if you're being robbed by a guy with a gun, because unless he's an idiot he's gonna shoot you in the face if you start trying to draw, because he's probably caught you unaware in the first place. I think it's all really situational. I have a few friends that can draw from concealment and put 3 rounds on target in under a second. If you truly feel your life is in danger that's probably an invaluable skill. Then there's the obvious case for women vs attackers. Wheat Loaf posted:The second is the question I'd like to ask the thread: when you're rolling with someone, what's the best way to initiate the roll? Usually when I'm rolling with someone else, we'd both start in combat base and try for a few grips, then the other guys always sort of bull into me and get me in a bad position. Evidently I need to rethink my approach. What are some good methods for starting off a roll? I basically pull half guard every time now. I used to grip fight a ton but kinda just stopped wasting my time. Generally speaking guys at my gym want to come forward so I'll just let them.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 00:03 |
|
I always initiate my rolls from butt scoot and start grip fighting.Decades posted:Right, I mean I've heard it broken down that way before. I guess, I get how that works in terms of relevance, that each notch down is less applicable and useful for a self defence situation than the previous. And it makes sense for people who train. For people who don't though train or run though, it effectively becomes Well yes, but this is the difference between telling people what they want to hear and telling people what they need to hear. To give a self-defense seminar which leaves people feeling equipped "To Defend Themselves" after an afternoon or even a weekend is actually irresponsible. I tell them that learning to fight is a long-term goal and a time-intensive process which requires a lot of pain and sacrifice. The best you can do is say "here are a few strategies if you find yourself in a bad spot." Also consider this - how often does a person really get into a situation where physical self-defense doesn't work and deescalation isn't possible? How actually common is that? Most of the situations you can name are either resolved by not getting physical - my tough-as-nails childhood judo teacher (RIP) said that the best defense to a gun or knife attack is "here's my wallet." GSP said that "200m dash" is the best technique. All of the rest are actually possible to deescalate - "oh some guy talked poo poo about your girl in a bar" isn't a self-defense situation. Nor is "I have to back up my buddy." This doesn't cover everything, but for example, for a woman to fight off a physically superior rapist who already has her pinned requires training measured in months and years. For the teenage girls class we did recently, our central message was you are worth defending - if you find yourself in a situation that makes you uncomfortable, to have the confidence to trust your instincts and get out.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 00:12 |
|
Pryor on Fire posted:You really don't need to be a runner, in 90% of self defense situations people would rather not look like a goddamn lunatic instead of chasing after a person sprinting all out. Anyone who grew up in the hood knows this. Just loving run, you're probably not getting chased unless someone has a grudge. Right but then you look like a bitch in front of the girls
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 00:18 |
|
CommonShore posted:I always initiate my rolls from butt scoot and start grip fighting. That sounds a bit like one guy I sometimes roll with whose preferred starting position is sitting with his legs open slightly and feet close together with his elbows inside his knees. It's a pretty good defensive stance from what I can see, and I think it looks like it might be worth having a go trying out.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 00:21 |
|
CommonShore posted:For the teenage girls class we did recently, our central message was you are worth defending - if you find yourself in a situation that makes you uncomfortable, to have the confidence to trust your instincts and get out. That is extremely good.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 00:22 |
|
I guess I'm thinking of it too much in the worst case scenario of a large man determined to attack a small unathletic woman when what self defense really usually is, and rightfully so, "how to not participate in fights" E: though then I'm not sure if groin strikes and poo poo have any place at all Pryor on Fire posted:Just loving run, you're probably not getting chased unless someone has a grudge. Like, I can't imagine something that would forge a personal grudge more quickly than someone trying to smash me in the balls Decades fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Feb 23, 2017 |
# ? Feb 23, 2017 00:23 |
|
Wheat Loaf posted:That sounds a bit like one guy I sometimes roll with whose preferred starting position is sitting with his legs open slightly and feet close together with his elbows inside his knees. It's a pretty good defensive stance from what I can see, and I think it looks like it might be worth having a go trying out. Yeah that's it, but I can also get offensive with it. My preferred open guard approach is butterfly- and spider-style stuff or to slide for ashi if we're doing footlocks in that roll. Starting butt-down gives me the freedom to move in like that, or to set up sweeps and reversals on someone who pushes in hard. Mechafunkzilla posted:That is extremely good. Thanks! Decades posted:I guess I'm thinking of it too much in the worst case scenario of a large man determined to attack a small unathletic woman when what self defense really usually is, and rightfully so, "how to not participate in fights" Well you can't offer a self-defense seminar without some of that kind of stuff. Nobody wants to show up and be lectured for 10 minutes about how fighting is wrong - let em have fun, too. Just frame it appropriately as "if you're in a really bad situation, here's how to strip someone's grip from your hair, here's how to hurt someone with an elbow, and here's how to trip someone and run away."
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 00:30 |
|
I actually 'scored' against a green belt during randori today! We learned grip techniques (i don't remember the offical name, google says Kumi Kata?) and its something I'm fairly good at! but then the green belt took off the training wheels and flipped me like twice but hey i'll take what i can get
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 02:52 |
|
Wangsbig posted:it is incredibly effective against me actually, i am fantastically weak to 'gun'
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 02:55 |
|
https://twitter.com/dril/status/813966376327086080
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 03:50 |
|
boy are my arms tired posted:I actually 'scored' against a green belt during randori today! We learned grip techniques (i don't remember the offical name, google says Kumi Kata?) and its something I'm fairly good at! Kumikata, yes. Strange coincidence -that's what we did too!
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 04:41 |
|
LionArcher and other aikido practitioners -- would you mind looking at those videos I linked and address: - does this stuff look like aikido, as you practice it? - do their overall gameplans resemble how you think aikidoka ought to approach the same situations (grappling, lots of kicks) - what if anything are they not doing that they should do, from the aikido repertoire? I gather, insofar as styles are preferences for certain moves and tactics, that aikido is even more about efficiency than (classical) judo is. But it's hard for me to understand how that works out in what little video I can find that seems like credible aikido grappling.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 05:07 |
|
It's been a long while since I wore that sweet skirt, but I watched the vs TKD vid and I find it pretty clearly aikido. The matwork in particular is very familiar. Tactically, I do think that's pretty much in line with what I learned: Keep a distance, wait for the opening, do a takedown, shoulder lock on the mat. However, having read Ellis Amdur's thoughts on atemi, I do feel there is room in aikido for a more proactive sort of approach that seeks to actively unbalance the attacker, maybe? (That might just be all my dabbling in all sorts of other styles bleeding through, though.)
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 11:54 |
|
CommonShore posted:Kumikata, yes. Strange coincidence -that's what we did too! it made a lot of sense to me; the focus was on grabbing fabric that wasn't sleeves or lapels and instead grabbing what you can (so, like armpit area). prior boxing experience kind of helped here, i was able to grab fabric a lot quicker and easier than most of the other white belts im thinking about attending an upcoming competition as a spectator, but i was told that even white belts could take part if they wanted. is it common to just hop right in knowing only a few basic techniques?
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 14:48 |
|
boy are my arms tired posted:it made a lot of sense to me; the focus was on grabbing fabric that wasn't sleeves or lapels and instead grabbing what you can (so, like armpit area). prior boxing experience kind of helped here, i was able to grab fabric a lot quicker and easier than most of the other white belts If there's a novices division and if your instructors think that your breakfalls are good enough for it to be safe, go for it. Here we'll actually promote someone to yellow belt if they want to compete, if we think it's safe.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 15:00 |
|
On my drive in to work the talk radio folks had a bit about tai chi. Hilights - it provides muscular and joint exercise for people 65+ which is accessible, free, and gentle on the heart. It prevents the debilitating atrophic loss in muscle density which is common in retired people because of sedentary lifestyles. Quantitatively, persons 65+ who practice tai chi 3x per week suffer 61% fewer falls than the general population at that age, which is actually a pretty big deal.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 15:58 |
|
Siivola posted:It's been a long while since I wore that sweet skirt, but I watched the vs TKD vid and I find it pretty clearly aikido. The matwork in particular is very familiar. Tactically, I do think that's pretty much in line with what I learned: Keep a distance, wait for the opening, do a takedown, shoulder lock on the mat. Thanks, that's really helpful. Can you watch the first vs BJJ video and analyze that, too? One thing that's somewhat surprising is how rigidly karate-like the guy's guard stance is. I feel like any hands in front of body would accomplish the same thing.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 17:50 |
|
Edit: The stance in the TKD video is actually much narrower and karate-like than the one I learned. Mine is closer to the one in the BJJ videos, with the feet wide and arm extended more.kimbo305 posted:This guy clearly knows what he's doing in terms of range and timing, though his techniques only get him so far. He seems to be looking to bait the BJJ guys into doing something that he can reverse, which I feel is correct from an aikido perspective. (I'd guess his stuff gets stuffed partly because he doesn't give the BJJ guys enough room to try attacks.) He kept walking forward and offering the grips he wanted to use, which might be slightly un-self-defense-y, but it's according to his gameplan so I like it. Again, I think there's room for a more proactive "get grips, invade personal space, throw" sort of approach in aikido, but on the other hand the vast majority of aikido practice starts from the assumption that the opponent obliges when you offer them a good grip. It's hardly "dominating" but it's recognizably aikido. They seemed to have a lot of fun. Siivola fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Feb 23, 2017 |
# ? Feb 23, 2017 19:03 |
|
Siivola posted:
Yeah that was my sense, too. He initiated little offense, and anyone who has watched much MMA should know how hard it is to get something going on a fighter who is focused entirely on defending and surviving. On top of that, his defensive skills seemed pretty good - lots of preventing cancer instead of curing it. This is also consistent with the Aikido tendency to say "well it's a defensive art "
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 19:14 |
|
CommonShore posted:On my drive in to work the talk radio folks had a bit about tai chi. I worry about selection bias. Anyway, I think it came up before in this thread w/r/t the awareness>de-escalation>running>screaming etc. debate but I'd argue that if tai chi is the thing that lets you find your zen and going to a bro-y hooah BJJ gym and getting super aggressive is going to tie your ego to wrassling skill, maybe the first is objectively better and the second is objectively detrimental, but that's not much to do with the sport so much as the philosophy going into it. Chill BJJ guys are chill, and probably better off than chill tai chi guys, but chill tai chi beats dumbass MMA. e: In other words, try out your gyms and leave if you don't like the vibe.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 19:31 |
|
CommonShore posted:Yeah that was my sense, too. He initiated little offense, and anyone who has watched much MMA should know how hard it is to get something going on a fighter who is focused entirely on defending and surviving. On top of that, his defensive skills seemed pretty good - lots of preventing cancer instead of curing it. To be fair he didn't have to initiate on those two because they appeared to not know crap about stand up wrestling. Note how both people "shoot" and by shoot I mean, bend over and run at the aikido dude and hope aikido dude falls over. Which props to Aikido dude for having the awareness to stuff it, but I would be more impressed if the BJJ dudes could complete it. That said, Aikido guy did demo some pretty sound technique.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 19:32 |
|
Siivola, thanks for the breakdowns. That's more that I've learned about aikido than every other post on it in the history of this thread (and the previous one).KildarX posted:That said, Aikido guy did demo some pretty sound technique. He didn't work very hard to stop the shots because he didn't need to, between the poor technique and size difference. But hey, at least someone offered that completely unscripted offense. To see any wristlock/shoulder lock attacks coming off even partially successful is a hell of a lot more than the aikido demos everyone likes to denounce.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 19:37 |
|
KildarX posted:To be fair he didn't have to initiate on those two because they appeared to not know crap about stand up wrestling. Note how both people "shoot" and by shoot I mean, bend over and run at the aikido dude and hope aikido dude falls over. Which props to Aikido dude for having the awareness to stuff it, but I would be more impressed if the BJJ dudes could complete it. That said, Aikido guy did demo some pretty sound technique. Is it sound technique though? Would it work against anyone half competent at actually fighting?
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 19:42 |
|
I will say if BJJ does have one significant weakness is that most Gyms in my experience don't do any sort of stand up practice beyond maybe a few minutes here and there of demoing a single or a double, but they generally don't work it long or consistent enough to actually have a meaningful standup besides grips and pull guard.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 19:43 |
|
willie_dee posted:Is it sound technique though? Would it work against anyone half competent at actually fighting? no
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 19:44 |
|
the JJ posted:I worry about selection bias. The discussion accounted for confounding factors by explaining how the Tai Chi makes people better at not falling. Again, I need to emphasize that it's as light exercise for old people - it works because it makes them use their legs and muscles for 40 minutes without putting other kinds of stress on their bodies. None of the benefits the radio show was discussing would have any value for someone who is in good enough shape to do something like BJJ.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 19:49 |
|
KildarX posted:I will say if BJJ does have one significant weakness is that most Gyms in my experience don't do any sort of stand up practice beyond maybe a few minutes here and there of demoing a single or a double, but they generally don't work it long or consistent enough to actually have a meaningful standup besides grips and pull guard. I agree with this as well. The caveat is that the average BJJ practitioner is there as a casual player and getting thrown around from standing really really really sucks and the chance of injury is much higher. So unless the school is large enough to separate the competition/advanced/those who want to train from standing students from the rest you risk alienating a large portion of your membership.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 19:51 |
|
It can be beneficial for stuff like posture, muscle control and grounding. There's a bunch of neat biomechanics behind tai chi push hands stuff, it's not based on pure magic. I remember reading about a BJJ guy who tried tai chi and found it made his BJJ game a lot better? I might be just imagining things.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 19:56 |
|
Siivola posted:It can be beneficial for stuff like posture, muscle control and grounding. There's a bunch of neat biomechanics behind tai chi push hands stuff, it's not based on pure magic. People say the same about yoga
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 19:59 |
|
willie_dee posted:Is it sound technique though? Would it work against anyone half competent at actually fighting? It's like the Triangle in grappling. It's a sound technique that competent people shouldn't be caught in, but if you practice hard enough you still end up with people in UFC matches and high level competitions getting caught. The Aikido guy's execution is poor, but there are some recognizable techniques in there. There's a really poor standing cattle catcher at 2:35 as a counter to a really poor shot. Mounted Kimura attempt at 4:13 that he lets off of for some reason. Second Video defends a bad single leg well at :10 seconds, head and arm throw to counter a foot sweep at 1:56. 3:49 is a guard pass that I like where you hip heist the other dude to roll him into turtle. There are sound techniques in there he just executes them very poorly, probably because he doesn't practice live a lot. edit: 3:10 had a Puter Kapala into a two on one arm throw I've seen in a judo video which was slick though although probably not effective. Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Feb 23, 2017 |
# ? Feb 23, 2017 20:04 |
|
KildarX posted:I will say if BJJ does have one significant weakness is that most Gyms in my experience don't do any sort of stand up practice beyond maybe a few minutes here and there of demoing a single or a double, but they generally don't work it long or consistent enough to actually have a meaningful standup besides grips and pull guard. BJJ standup is kind of like Judo groundwork, overlooked because the sporting rules don't give it enough weight. Train in both if you can. Good Judo players do, and will gently caress you up on the ground in a tournament. I believe kumi-kata generally refers to grip-fighting. The rules here have (finally) loosened up, so if you intend to compete in Judo better get used to learn how to grip fight and transition your gripping game directly into your throws.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 20:12 |
|
hi liter posted:BJJ standup is kind of like Judo groundwork, overlooked because the sporting rules don't give it enough weight. Train in both if you can. Good Judo players do, and will gently caress you up on the ground in a tournament. Doesn't it though? In most competition a Guard pull doesn't give you anything except guard at best, and at worst if done improperly causes a penalty. In most competition a take down is worth two points at worst and a lot more if you can take advantage a get a pass. If you want to game the system you'd hit a take down and stall while not looking like your stalling for three minutes.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 20:16 |
|
KildarX posted:Doesn't it though? In most competition a Guard pull doesn't give you anything except guard at best, and at worst if done improperly causes a penalty. In most competition a take down is worth two points at worst and a lot more if you can take advantage a get a pass. If you want to game the system you'd hit a take down and stall while not looking like your stalling for three minutes. Unless they seriously trained in judo or wrestling first, BJJ players I've done stand up with at every rank have white belt judo quality take downs and throws. And even then, if they haven't trained in standup for a while they're still kind of butt in the standup game. This is all gi training, I don't know poo poo about no-gi standup.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 20:30 |
|
I dunno what the reasons are, I just know when I watch people sprawl in BJJ class it makes my inner high school wrestler cry.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 20:39 |
|
When I do just standup with my bjj buddies who don't do the wrestling or MMA class, it's like rolling with that guy who has watched tons of MMA but who has never set foot on a mat until that day - they know generally how it's supposed to happen and proceed, and they're even familiar with the techniques, but the actualities of execution are a foreign language to them. I've actually caught several people who are better grapplers than me by every possible metric by baiting them into lovely single legs and hitting a hikkomi gaeshi guillotine.
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 20:54 |
|
|
# ? May 14, 2024 07:42 |
|
bjj-only dudes will generally never commit to a throw and it is very simple for a sub-par grappler but above-average tossist like myself to reverse or otherwise take advantage of this
|
# ? Feb 23, 2017 21:09 |