|
I feel like Skaven could really get their own mini campaign with all the infighting involved. Skaven also give the Dwarves someone else to chew on in their campaign and I hope their ancestral grudge skills includes Skaven because half the time greenskins are already wiped out before I'm tempted to spend skill points on it.
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 20:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 22:25 |
|
|
Thanquol the magicy leader, Queek the fighty leader, Skrolk the plaguey leader, Ikit the DLC Skryre leader
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 20:03
|
|
|
What's kinda funny is if you read what little fluff he had, Finubar was actually a pretty cool guy. An explorer and sailor originally sent to go gawk at the mud huts of the humans, he instead found the Empire and others had developed and argued for greater involvement and alliance with them. He was partly behind the elven move to found the colleges of magic and helped solidify elf support for the Empire when Magnus the Pious reunited the place a couple centuries before Total Warhams. I'm kinda not sure why they never did anything with the guy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 20:07
|
|
|
Tyrion and Teclis seem to be the most obvious choices possible for High Elf Legendary Lords. They're the two most famous elves, they fit into a Fighter/Wizard split like other factions have, and they have enough magical items and special rules to make for interesting characters. The real question is who would be their third? Finubar would be an interesting choice. He has no tabletop rules to fall back on, but if they are adding naval combat he'd have good bonuses to that, and he's the faction leader Alith Anar is my bet, since he has a super special rivalry with the Dark Elves. I hope they keep his bow's special rules of firing like a siege weapon, that would be awesome. Eltharion would be good to save for a DLC, since he's rivals with Grom the Paunch during Grom's invasion of Ulthuan. I can see Eltharion being in the base game if they want to save Alith Anar for an "Assholes and Assholes" regiments of renown DLC for the elves. Alarielle is a badass, being the most powerful Life wizard. She has cool special rules and items, but has two problems: 1)she wouldn't be that different from how they're doing the Fay Enchantress and 2)Teclis is already the Squishy Wizard legendary lord. I hope we get her, but I think Alith Anar or Eltharion would make for a better base game character. She's got some great anti-daemon rules, so I think they should save her for when Daemons are added. Their other named characters are Korhil and Caradryan, the captains of the White Lions and Phoenix Guard respectively. They're just heroes, but we have Helman loving Ghorst so why not? Caradryan gets a Phoenix mount, so that's pretty cool. One interesting bit is that on the tabletop Korhil works best in a unit of Phoenix Guard, and Caradryan in a unit of White Lions. This is because they have special rules which their base unit has, but the other group lacks. So by adding Korhil to Phoenix Guard, they get Stubborn, while Caradryan adds Fear to White Lions.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 20:25
|
|
|
Kaza42 posted:Tyrion and Teclis seem to be the most obvious choices possible for High Elf Legendary Lords. They're the two most famous elves, they fit into a Fighter/Wizard split like other factions have, and they have enough magical items and special rules to make for interesting characters. The real question is who would be their third? I'm also interested in how the elves will play in battles. In the tabletop they're roughly equivalent to humans, the only buffs they get are soft stats like speed and leadership and their armor is overall not great, also their toughness was universally poo poo-tier besides Malekith, but in the lore they're kind of a step above humans in all regards. Their armor in particular was disconnected, other than skirmishers and archers the models were all heavily armored, but in gameplay an elf with a cuirasse, a metal helmet, and head-to-foot mail with a bigass kite shield had the same armor as a goblin with a fur hat. I could see Lothern Sea Guard replacing quarrelers as top-tier basic archers. They were fully-kitted-out elf spearmen with a longbow just as good as any ranged unit on top of it. Also in the Storm of Chaos list they were broken as gently caress, they got a free round of shooting before the game started. Dark Elf crossbows were not quite as good in melee but they were also borderline ridiculous. I think a lot of lists were a sorceress lord, and unkillable pegasus hero with the broken magic amulet of immortality, and a fuckload of repeater crossbows. vintagepurple fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Feb 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 20:33
|
|
|
Any suggestions for babby's first actual time as Orion in the grand campaign - where to head towards for early game strength, good targets and such including that which the narrator prods toward? I just tried dabbling in a game, attempted to siege some neutral town close by that got doomstack reinforced and my reinforcement army got ambush-stomped by beastmen led by one of their legendaries.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 20:42
|
|
|
High Elves will have really high melee attack and defense stats to represent their Always Strikes First ability combined with high initiative (in tabletop, this means they get two chances to land a hit.) Dark Elves will get lots and lots of short range crossbows that fire so fast it's not even fair.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 20:42
|
|
|
vintagepurple posted:I'm also interested in how the elves will play in battles. In the tabletop they're roughly equivalent to humans, the only buffs they get are soft stats like speed and leadership and their armor is overall not great, also their toughness was universally poo poo-tier besides Malekith, but in the lore they're kind of a step above humans in all regards. Their armor in particular was disconnected, other than skirmishers and archers the models were all heavily armored, but in gameplay an elf with a cuirasse, a metal helmet, and head-to-foot mail with a bigass kite shield had the same armor as a goblin with a fur hat. I'll focus on High Elves, since that's who I played. The basic elf is faster, has more leadership, and has better combat stats (i.e. WS and BS) than a human. Their basic spearmen are exactly identical to the wood elf spearman, except for one special rule letting them fight better in formation. So that's probably going to be the same, with their base units being "like empire but smaller unit size and better melee attack/defense, speed and leadership". They also have the Lothern Sea Guard, which are Spearmen with bows, meaning they'll be able to have a bow frontline that fights exactly as well as their basic infantry. But the real name of the game for High Elves is Specialists. Swordmasters have slightly worse armor than Greatswords, but attack twice as much, move faster, hit faster, and have a WS on par with other factions lords or heroes (a Swordmaster has the same Weapon Skill as Karl Franz). They can also jedi-block arrows and bullets. White Lions have massive axes, resistance to shooting, and a high Strength only made higher by their greatweapons. They make for fantastic heavy infantry or monster hunters, and also come in Chariot form drawn by actual loving lions. Phoenix Guard have a 4+ ward save, cause fear and have halberds. While they're no tougher than other elves, ignoring 50% of attacks makes them good defensively. Dragon Princes are heavy cavalry (about Bretonnia armor level, not Chaos Knights) who move faster than most factions light cavalry. Shadow Warriors fight better than most elite infantry, and shoot better than almost anyone. Sisters of Avelorn are elite archers who shoot flaming gently caress-Evil arrows. A good place for armor piercing ranged units. They've also got Dragon Mages, specialist heroes who can only use the Lore of Fire but come on dragons, two variety of Phoenix, and flying chariot ballistae.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 20:48
|
|
|
Dark Elves also had universal hatred, which would probably translate as really high melee attack. The High Elf Always Strike First ability was drat close to broken. For reference a generic human hitting a chaos warrior had about a 33% chance to do damage and a 33% chance to get through his armor. Give him a greatsword or greataxe and he has a 66% chance to do it, the downside being he automatically hits last so the chaos warrior with a generic sword or halberd will likely kill him before he can swing. A high elf could take the greatsword and still hit first, which meant a high elf with a claymore was often more deadly than one with an expensive magic weapon. WS and BS are weapon skill and ballistic skill if anyone reading is confused and nerdy enough to care. They did what the names would suggest. vintagepurple fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Feb 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 20:51
|
|
|
High elfes armies in lore are supposed to be formed around a solid core of citizen-soldiers (mainly spearmen, archers and decent cavalry) supported by a diverse cast of smaller, exotic and elite units like swordmasters, white lions, phoenix guards and the like. In practice, because GW is poo poo at balancing army lists (and High Elves being the spoiled brats of Warhammer since old times) we had pretty much the opposite and led to really unfluffy army comps. At some point around 7th edition, they just gived up and embraced the sillynes, I'm talking about stuff like fire/ice phoenixes, flying chariots and poo poo like that. It didn't make that much sense from the lore but sold well enough, just like the entirety of 8th edition, I guess. Ironically, the only instance where High Elve armies where good, fun to play, balanced and fluffy at the same time was in Warmaster, a shame that very few people played that game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 21:07
|
|
|
vintagepurple posted:Dark Elves also had universal hatred, which would probably translate as really high melee attack. All Elves had Always Strike First. The High Elf special ability was to fight in one extra rank than normal. Dark Elves had the ability to reroll 1s to wound in melee. Wood Elves had both, but only in forest terrain. Also, for whatever reason Chaos Warriors had Initiative 5, the same as elves, so they'd hit at the same time as an elf with a great weapon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 21:10
|
|
|
Kaza42 posted:All Elves had Always Strike First. The High Elf special ability was to fight in one extra rank than normal. Dark Elves had the ability to reroll 1s to wound in melee. Wood Elves had both, but only in forest terrain. Also, for whatever reason Chaos Warriors had Initiative 5, the same as elves, so they'd hit at the same time as an elf with a great weapon. I think it was supposed to represent that Warriors are insanely well trained and experienced fighters who don't hesitate in the slightest. I hate Chaos for a lot of reasons, but the whole 'silent, looming, extremely skilled hellviking' thing was always pretty neat.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 21:13
|
|
|
Kaza42 posted:I'll focus on High Elves, since that's who I played. The basic elf is faster, has more leadership, and has better combat stats (i.e. WS and BS) than a human. Their basic spearmen are exactly identical to the wood elf spearman, except for one special rule letting them fight better in formation. So that's probably going to be the same, with their base units being "like empire but smaller unit size and better melee attack/defense, speed and leadership". They also have the Lothern Sea Guard, which are Spearmen with bows, meaning they'll be able to have a bow frontline that fights exactly as well as their basic infantry. But the real name of the game for High Elves is Specialists.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 21:16
|
|
|
For Lizardmen, I'm expecting Kroq-gar for a saurus leader riding a t-rex, Mazdamundi as the primary wizard (a fat frog who gets to ride a goddamned triceratops), and Tehenhauin as a gimmick skink leader and wizard/melee hybrid. They've got tons of other characters, but a lot of them are heroes with the notable exception of Lord Kroak who I'd love to see in the game somehow.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 21:38
|
|
|
Kaza42 posted:All Elves had Always Strike First. The High Elf special ability was to fight in one extra rank than normal. Dark Elves had the ability to reroll 1s to wound in melee. Wood Elves had both, but only in forest terrain. Also, for whatever reason Chaos Warriors had Initiative 5, the same as elves, so they'd hit at the same time as an elf with a great weapon. drat, is that right? It's been long enough that I barely remember the 7th and 8th ed army books so I may be well off base. There was something about swordmasters that made them far better than executioners though, right? Swordmasters were almost an autotake and executioners were pretty weak, I thought. Ravenfood posted:How to they compare to Wood Elves in general? If we take Eternal Guard as a baseline for "elven spearmen" (either ignoring their special formation rule or increasing their charge defense or something), giving them the t2 infantry as Lothern Sea Guard which is just an Eternal Guard with a Glade Guard ranged ability stapled on, then how do their specialists compare to the Wood Elves? Swordmasters seem like they're going to be much better than Wardancers, but then you're looking at a lot of T3/T4 infantry options. I'm not sure how you'd really differentiate the value of Swordmasters vs White Lions since they both seem like they come in anti-infantry flavors unless they make Swordmasters just blend lightly armored infantry while White Lions are your anti-armored infantry. But then you've already got Phoenix Guard for being your anti-armored, anti-large monster hunters, so those three seem slightly redundant. Shadow Warriors sound like they're Waywatchers with melee ability, is that about right? And Dragon Princes sound terrifying considering how heavily I relied on Wild Riders, so a heavy cavalry version of them is just mean. For the most part high elves were flat-out better than wood elves one-on-one. The wood elves made up for it with forest spirits, skirmishing, and free forests they could throw onto the table. Also, the elves were universally toughness 3. Only Malekith and the wood elf forest spirits had higher, I think. Swordmasters were superior at mulching infantry and white lions better killing heavy units. Lions had stubborn so they wouldn't run away while swordmasters had base 2 attacks. Lions were also the only elf infantry to be Strength 4. Phoenix guard are a bit weaker but ignore half of all damage and still pretty killy, so they were more of a tank choice. Really it came down to personal playstyle, though. vintagepurple fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Feb 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 21:45
|
|
|
Safety Factor posted:For Lizardmen I'm expecting Kroq'gar for a saurus leader riding a t-rex, Mazdamundi as the primary wizard (a fat frog who gets to ride a goddamned triceratops), and Tehenhauin as a gimmick skink leader and wizard/melee hybrid. They've got tons of other characters, but a lot of them are heroes with the notable exception of Lord Kroak who I'd love to see in the game somehow. Lord Kroak fits as overpowered DLC lord. He would be very easy to code! He's a wizard who only knows one spell! That spell is "every non-Lizardman within X distance takes a shitton of damage, extra if they are undead or demons." Fights with him would be boring as hell, but this is what happens when one of your lords is a mummified nuclear weapon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 21:49
|
|
|
Keep in mind quarrelers were identical in close combat to dwarf warriors in whfb, they just cost more points. This was thankfully not carried over to wtw. I think CA would rather make a good game inspired by the setting, not GW's garbage ruleset.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 21:53
|
|
|
They could translate high Initiative / always strikes first units to attack much more rapidly but keep their DPS the same. Getting in more attacks in the same time frame means they'll hit more consistently especially if their MA was pretty good to begin with, and kill enemies before they strike back which was how it worked in the tabletop. This would also make these types of units less affected by knockdown attacks since it wouldn't take them ages to restart their attack animation.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 21:54
|
|
|
vintagepurple posted:drat, is that right? It's been long enough that I barely remember the 7th and 8th ed army books so I may be well off base. There was something about swordmasters that made them far better than executioners though, right? Swordmasters were almost an autotake and executioners were pretty weak, I thought. It's not even remotely true, at least insofar as elves always having those rules. High Elves only gained the ASF rule in 6th edition, and as far as I'm aware Wood Elves and Dark Elves never had it (though I fell out of touch with later editions). The special rule Executioners had was Killing Blow (possibly only the human-sized version as well) if I recall correctly, but as you say were an uncommon pick because of the lighter armor saves elves had, along with always striking last due to greatweapons. Also Dark Elves usually had more important things to take (like more repeater crossbows/repeater bolt throwers). Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Feb 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
Also, if the High/Dark Elves are seen to be wearing what is basically plate armour? Yeah they're gonna have atleast 60-80 armour ingame, or they should atleast. Thats how it works in this game after all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
Any ideas as to how Wood Elves are being toned down? Or was it just that remark during the stream?
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 22:01
|
|
|
Lord Koth posted:It's not even remotely true, at least insofar as elves always having those rules. High Elves only gained the ASF rule in 6th edition, and as far as I'm aware Wood Elves and Dark Elves never had it (though I fell out of touch with later editions). The special rule Executioners had was Killing Blow (possibly only the human-sized version as well) if I recall correctly, but as you say were an uncommon pick because of the lighter armor saves elves had, along with always striking last due to greatweapons. Also Dark Elves usually had more important things to take (like more repeater crossbows/repeater bolt throwers). The ASF came in 7th, which I only know because my friend gave me his High Elf army in 6th. 6th was when the core units were so awful that you'd take minimal silver helms and then loads of chariots and dragon princes. They also had the dumbass Intrigue at Court rule where your general was randomly selected. Gejnor posted:Also, if the High/Dark Elves are seen to be wearing what is basically plate armour? Yeah they're gonna have atleast 60-80 armour ingame, or they should atleast. Thats how it works in this game after all. That was the weirdest thing about tabletop elves. The basic dudes have more armour than greatswords but their head-to-toe plate and scalemail got a 6+ save from it while an imperial greatsword with a floppy hat and a breastplate got 4+. vintagepurple fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Feb 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 22:04
|
|
|
vintagepurple posted:That was the weirdest thing about tabletop elves. The basic dudes have more armour than greatswords but their head-to-toe plate and scalemail got a 6+ save from it while an imperial greatsword with a floppy hat and a breastplate got 4+. Well i cannot speak for TT rules since i never played Tabletops but do consider that Imperial Greatswords ingame are sitting at 95 armour, so i don't think CA will follow TT rules this strictly. In short, if a unit is in a suit of armour they will have good armour in this game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 22:10
|
|
|
vintagepurple posted:The ASF came in 7th, which I only know because my friend gave me his High Elf army in 6th. 6th was when the core units were so awful that you'd take minimal silver helms and then loads of chariots and dragon princes. They also had the dumbass Intrigue at Court rule where your general was randomly selected. In those days, chainmail only counted as light armour, oddly enough, maybe it was just an aesthethic choice. Looking at how they did the point pricing back then, if they gave everyone heavy armor it would have increased their point cost, making basic high elf units even more uncompetitive. On the other hand, core spearmen units with 3+ armor save with hand weapon and shield? Yes please, gimme that. The court intrigue special rule was incredibly dumb and I still don't know why they did that. Looking at what CA has done so far and how good it's been, I have really high hopes for the next two games. Never thought I would say that after Rome 2 release.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 22:20
|
|
|
Angry Lobster posted:Looking at what CA has done so far and how good it's been, I have really high hopes for the next two games. Never thought I would say that after Rome 2 release. I put a ton of hours into shogun 2, stopped playing after Empire, and picked this up because i'm in love with everything WFB without actually playing the TT game. they've really knocked this one out of the park. i will give them all of the money if they keep adding races in. I know it will be tough to balance after awhile but damnit I need the Skaven. or Ogre Kingdom.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 22:23
|
|
|
TheHoosier posted:I put a ton of hours into shogun 2, stopped playing after Empire, and picked this up because i'm in love with everything WFB without actually playing the TT game. they've really knocked this one out of the park. i will give them all of the money if they keep adding races in. I know it will be tough to balance after awhile but damnit I need the Skaven. or Ogre Kingdom. Agreed on this count, I haven't touched board or video games since like 2012 but I finally was able to afford a decent computer, picked this up because I loving loved WHFB as a kid and me and my dad would play, and I haven't had as much simple fun in ages. Speaking of fun, depending on how CA does the High Elves Ellyrian Reavers might be absolute funkillers under AI control. Faster marauder horsemen with better range and armour. Imagine a doomstack of mounted Tyrion, a few repeater bolt throwers and sea guard and then filled out with reavers. We'll be pining for Varg and Skaeling.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 22:26
|
|
|
vintagepurple posted:Speaking of fun, depending on how CA does the High Elves Ellyrian Reavers might be absolute funkillers under AI control. Faster marauder horsemen with better range and armour. Imagine a doomstack of mounted Tyrion, a few repeater bolt throwers and sea guard and then filled out with reavers. We'll be pining for Varg and Skaeling.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 22:46
|
|
|
Free Cheese posted:This guy drones on and on but he definitely knows his warhammer lore his secret to being knowledgeable is that he literally reads word for word from the WFB wiki.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 22:51
|
|
|
vintagepurple posted:So for the next game Malekith as leader and Morathi for the alternate standard start are a Dark Elf shoe-in, I want Hellebron so I can make stupid gimmick armies filled with only Witch Elves.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 23:15
|
|
|
vintagepurple posted:That was the weirdest thing about tabletop elves. The basic dudes have more armour than greatswords but their head-to-toe plate and scalemail got a 6+ save from it while an imperial greatsword with a floppy hat and a breastplate got 4+. That hat is an obviously vital defensive fixture.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 23:16
|
|
|
Fauxtool posted:his secret to being knowledgeable is that he literally reads word for word from the WFB wiki. poo poo, that's a talent. i can't stand reading most of the lore pages on that site. half due to bad quality of wiki writers, half due to bad quality of source writers. Night10194 posted:That hat is an obviously vital defensive fixture. elves just inspire you to hit them harder, imo
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 23:17
|
|
|
Elves actually have hollow bones, that's how they manage to be so quick and agile, but also why an Elf with full scalemail is as tough as a human wearing a breastplate and a hat. Which makes sense, given their other bird-like qualities, like laying eggs and stuff.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 23:21
|
|
|
I'm curious if they'll have some demographics mechanic for the High Elves since the fact that they replenish so slowly is a pretty big part of their lore IIRC.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 23:23
|
|
|
Kainser posted:I'm curious if they'll have some demographics mechanic for the High Elves since the fact that they replenish so slowly is a pretty big part of their lore IIRC. Apparently it was always a setting thing that there are actually way more Dark Elves than High Elves, which makes no goddamn sense given the Dark Elves are run by a coalition between a murder cult and absolutely not slaanesh worshipers we swear. When your society has regular 'hunt and kill whoever you wish this night' holidays I'm not sure what that does for your population.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 23:26
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:Apparently it was always a setting thing that there are actually way more Dark Elves than High Elves, which makes no goddamn sense given the Dark Elves are run by a coalition between a murder cult and absolutely not slaanesh worshipers we swear.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 23:27
|
|
|
High Elves have a population problem because the magic vortex underneath Ulthuan that's sucking up all the Chaos has some nasty side effects on having kids. High Elf colonies elsewhere don't have that problem. Not that this affects their ability to field plot-sized armies, mind you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 23:29
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:They could translate high Initiative / always strikes first units to attack much more rapidly but keep their DPS the same. Getting in more attacks in the same time frame means they'll hit more consistently especially if their MA was pretty good to begin with, and kill enemies before they strike back which was how it worked in the tabletop.  For the Strategic Map though I hope they lean into and embrace the political fuckery that the High Elves reportedly deal with. I don't know if it'd be fun to play, but it'd be a good thematic choice for you to have to confederate say Tiranoc in order to build those pretty sky chariots, and you can only build say... ten period. Ten Sky Chariots for you for your entire campaign, because the Prince of Tiranoc thinks that's all you should get. Oh he'll bemoan the lost craft needed for these works of art, all while throwing sheets over the few hundred in his garden or whatever. Of course that would mean CA would have to re-tackle the Diplomacy system, which feels like a long shot at this point.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2017 23:37
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:That hat is an obviously vital defensive fixture. Pretty sure it's actually the moustache.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 00:21
|
|
|
The Lone Badger posted:Pretty sure it's actually the moustache. Of course! Facial hair is an indicator of a willingness to get back up after taking a hit, which is why Dawi are so stubborn, elves fold like paper when actually hit because they are beardless wimps who can't handle pain, and humans are in between the two (if I'm not mistaken). I can have moments of... eccentricity and sometimes be quite curious about things. Please forgive me if I do something foolish or rude.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 00:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 22:25 |
|
|
Dandywalken posted:Any ideas as to how Wood Elves are being toned down? Or was it just that remark during the stream? The stream comments suggested that they will not be nearly as aggressive as before. They won't 100% stick to Athel Loren, but they aren't going to be at all expansionistic like they are now. There's a mod that simply adds the Defensive trait to all wood elf faction leaders and this does a fairly good job of keeping them constrained. I imagine this is just what CA will do.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2017 00:55
|
|
