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JFairfax posted:I do like working class people and I dislike Tory governments. I actually left the UK when the Tories got in in 2010. You hold nothing but contempt for working class people, as evidenced by your regular outbursts against them in this thread.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:03
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Pantsuit posted:Sorry Flaps but New Labour is to blame for literally all of Labours problems *Ding ding ding* We have a winnah!
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Feb 24, 2017 10:03
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JFairfax posted:a lot loving better I would imagine. we wouldn't have ISIS for one, no refugee crisis, probably no Trump either. Well, the last one is pretty much a direct reaction to the first two.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:04
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Pissflaps posted:You hold nothing but contempt for working class people, as evidenced by your regular outbursts against them in this thread. I thought you were the archbishop of banterberry, better get out of the kitchen mate
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Feb 24, 2017 10:07
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JFairfax posted:Earlier this month the Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) published an “audit of social justice” examining the impact of the Labour government’s policies on poverty and social inequality in Britain. Its findings are an indictment of the big business agenda imposed by Prime Minister Tony Blair’s government during its seven years in office. This is an interesting article.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:07
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it really is
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Feb 24, 2017 10:08
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Pissflaps posted:You don't like working class people so Tory governments are ok with you. I imagine most Iraqis could be considered working class or lower
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Feb 24, 2017 10:08
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Huh, Labour didn't so much win Stoke as the Tories lost it thanks to UKIP stealing half their votes. I think this is going to be a repeating pattern - Labour will be an eternal 35% while the split between Tories and UKIP will decide if either Tories or Labour win.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:08
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JFairfax posted:I thought you were the archbishop of banterberry, better get out of the kitchen mate What does 'get out of the kitchen' mean? Pochoclo posted:m In 'safe' labour seats maybe.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:09
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I like this one where after 18 years of Tory government the first thing Tony Blair wants to do is cut benefits for single parent families. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/38321.stm Such a hero.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:11
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Pissflaps posted:What does 'get out of the kitchen' mean? "Get out of the Kitchen if you can't stand the heat"
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Feb 24, 2017 10:11
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I wonder what would have happened if Corbyns choice of candidate actually was selected Makes u think
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Feb 24, 2017 10:12
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wasn't thatcher a big tony blair fan?
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Feb 24, 2017 10:12
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Gonzo McFee posted:I like this one where after 18 years of Tory government the first thing Tony Blair wants to do is cut benefits for single parent families. I like how your response to labour losing a by-election is to desperately search for ways of deflecting by googling Bad Labour Things from 20 years ago.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:13
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spectralent posted:Yeah, but as I said, I suspect if he did go, that's exactly what'd happen, because every time we've seen someone come out directly to oppose Corbyn, he's been wrong by not agreeing with the tories in principle and quibbling on specifics; he was wrong for losing labour's economic credibility (actually opposing austerity), he's out of touch with the working class for not matching their views on globalisation (doesn't hate immigrants enough), he's thinks unions are good when obviously they're bad, etc etc. There's probably more examples but I'm lazy. This mindset and the whole narrative in most of the media out there is something I just can't see changing for a while, and I have no real clue how it would be brought around without a huge amount of major failings. It's started to happen in some respects, with the whole fake news and other angles, but the whole apathy arising from the perception that votes don't change anything (even after the referendum) is really disturbing. Along with the lack of apettite to even inform themselves over basics (blame councils for cuts, benefits = lazy), and we're really in a bad way at the moment with a sizeable chunk of the population voting with ill informed emotion.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:13
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Jose posted:wasn't thatcher a big tony blair fan? Her favourite achievement was New Labour.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:13
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Fingerless Gloves posted:I wonder what would have happened if Corbyns choice of candidate actually was selected Makes me think Labour would have lost its deposit.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:14
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Pissflaps posted:You don't like working class people so Tory governments are ok with you. The working class are voting Tory and ukip.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:15
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Regarde Aduck posted:The working class are voting Tory and ukip. Because Labour is dying.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:17
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Pissflaps posted:I like how your response to labour losing a by-election is to desperately search for ways of deflecting by googling Bad Labour Things from 20 years ago. You're the one pretending they were heroes to the working class and ignoring all evidence to the contrary. If he had delivered as much as you claimed then Labour wouldn't have so much trouble with UKIP. And I've already said my feelings on this event before in the thread which agree that Corbyn should go but the lack of choice prevents me from voting for anyone else, but you'd rather be a bitter wee oval office as usual.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:17
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On what basis would you be able to say that, flappy
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Feb 24, 2017 10:18
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Gonzo McFee posted:And I've already said my feelings on this event before in the thread which , but you'd rather be a bitter wee oval office as usual. You're right I am bitter. I'm bitter about what's been done to the Labour Party, and the shithouse excuses being dredged up for it.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:21
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Weird you cut out the other bit that you couldn't answer. You do that a lot.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:23
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as always: note the spike on the right. new labour's concept of redistribution involved broad social classes, not the relatively Americanised handful-of-fat-cats-vs-the-middle-classes perspective. slices of society as large as a third or a fifth, not the highly mobile 0.1% this was, after all, still the early 1990s when it got going hence, famously enough, its understanding of university tuition fees as an egalitarian move. the relatively well-off use more of it. the relatively worse-off get larger subsidies, if they use it at all. what's not to love? it is not, perhaps, an ideology for success in the 2010s. but it's not obvious to me what egalitarian policy would succeed at the ballot box today. and hammering on about housing and national living wages likewise doesn't do much about that 0.1%, in wealth or income.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:24
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Pissflaps posted:Because Labour is dying. and its blair's fault
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Feb 24, 2017 10:27
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Don't Lol me posted:This mindset and the whole narrative in most of the media out there is something I just can't see changing for a while, and I have no real clue how it would be brought around without a huge amount of major failings. It's started to happen in some respects, with the whole fake news and other angles, but the whole apathy arising from the perception that votes don't change anything (even after the referendum) is really disturbing. Along with the lack of apettite to even inform themselves over basics (blame councils for cuts, benefits = lazy), and we're really in a bad way at the moment with a sizeable chunk of the population voting with ill informed emotion. You would have thought the great financial crash would have been the "things can't go on like this" moment. I guess it was, just the world got sold that "like this" was poor people having food, instead of rich people deciding whether or not they wanted to gently caress up everyone's wages today.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:27
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Jose posted:and its blair's fault Yeah it's definitely the fault of the guy that delivered three labour governments over a decade ago, and not the leader labour has now who everyone thinks is poo poo.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:28
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Pissflaps posted:Yeah it's definitely the fault of the guy that delivered three labour governments over a decade ago, and not the leader labour has now who everyone thinks is poo poo. I'm glad you finally agree.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:29
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https://twitter.com/DanielHewittITV/status/834966087276118017 Lol
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Feb 24, 2017 10:30
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mehall posted:Can't do that for very important reasons. The problem is Labour have already lost the immigration argument, and now need to embrace it as its by far the biggest issue for a significant section of the voting populous. Turning the argument to be one that is fazed around that immigration needs to be controlled at a level where the country can support it would 'one up' the Tories as they already are indicating that they aren't going to stop much immigration (e.g. David Davis's comment still need for low skilled / low paid immigrants post Brexit). It would also make UKIP completely irrelevant. As to what to do in a region once the levels are met, if its managed by a completely none political organisation ala the Bank of England, and they make the decisions then its out of any parties hands. Pissflaps posted:In 'safe' labour seats maybe. After last night, I am not sure their are many safe Labour seats as the Tories are going to pounce on the missed opportunity in Stoke and try and make sure it doesn't happen again.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:30
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I think it's fair to suggest that if the Labour left had succeeded against Kinnock's reforms, it would not have won 1992 or 1997. Holding a Labour government constant, a Labour right leader seems an inevitability. The more interesting counterfactual, really, is what might have happened if President Gore did not drag Blair into Iraq. ronya fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Feb 24, 2017 |
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Feb 24, 2017 10:31
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ukle posted:The problem is Labour have already lost the immigration argument, and now need to embrace it as its by far the biggest issue for a significant section of the voting populous. The problem with this problem is that it's monstrous. We need to stop the hatred of migrants before we start setting up loving camps. ronya posted:I think it's fair to suggest that if the Labour left had succeeded against Kinnock's reforms, it would not have won 1992 or 1997. Holding a Labour government constant, a Labour right leader seems an inevitability. The mouldering corpse of hitler could've won in 1997. Maybe not to the extent that Blair did, but Blair had a lot of charisma (regrettably).
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Feb 24, 2017 10:35
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Pissflaps posted:Yeah it's definitely the fault of the guy that delivered three labour governments over a decade ago, and not the leader labour has now who everyone thinks is poo poo. its a very deep rot yes
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Feb 24, 2017 10:36
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I wonder if the cultural landmark imagery of 1997 is a major part of the problem; if New Labour had only squeaked a win there probably would have been far more voices saying it was because they'd moved too far away from their traditional base and they'd be having the same sort of discussion they're having now but 20 years earlier and in government. And if it happened in the first parliament they'd get the drop on all the 9/11 inspired racism.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:39
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spectralent posted:The problem with this problem is that it's monstrous. We need to stop the hatred of migrants before we start setting up loving camps. Paddy Ashdown would have outpolled the Fuhrer's corpse, and pundits today would rub their chins about the wise four who foresaw the doom of Labour and quit early, unlike the ex-Marxist fools who thought they could salvage the wreck.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:39
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turns out ignoring your traditional voter base and leading the country into a deeply unpopular illegal war fucks your party
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Feb 24, 2017 10:40
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While I was googling the margins of the Labour win to check my facts I did find this interesting comment:quote:The first is that the ‘idea’ which lies behind Thatcherite and post-Thatcherite Conservatism has triumphed. It is not merely the triumph of the market. The way we think about and describe the world, the vocabulary we use, particularly in public life, has been transformed in the last twenty years. This vocabulary might be self-parodying or absurd – and often is – but it now has no competitor. It has thus been difficult for us even to imagine that the political vehicle of this victorious ideology – precisely because of its victory – could itself be defeated. It is here that 1997 differs most from 1945. Although people were surprised by Labour’s win in 1945, they knew that the ‘idea’ with which Labour was most associated had already won: the election simply brought Parliament into line with the mood of the country. In 1997 we can apparently rely on no such explanation. It seems particularly relevant given what I was saying earlier. https://www.lrb.co.uk/v19/n13/ross-mckibbin/why-the-tories-lost Here if you care.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:41
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spectralent posted:The problem with this problem is that it's monstrous. We need to stop the hatred of migrants before we start setting up loving camps. People don't hate immigrants (at least, they didn't and they wouldn't), they hate the negative impact of the sheer number of immigrants on their lives. People want immigration reduced and controlled for the betterment of their own lives, not to spite immigrants. Yes, there are people who are violent and aggressive towards them, but that sort of person will always exist, there will always be racial hatred regardless.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:41
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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HJB posted:People don't hate immigrants (at least, they didn't and they wouldn't), they hate the negative impact of the sheer number of immigrants on their lives. People want immigration reduced and controlled for the betterment of their own lives, not to spite immigrants. Yes, there are people who are violent and aggressive towards them, but that sort of person will always exist, there will always be racial hatred regardless. trident would solve this
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Feb 24, 2017 10:43
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ronya posted:Paddy Ashdown would have outpolled the Fuhrer's corpse, and pundits today would rub their chins about the wise four who foresaw the doom of Labour and quit early, unlike the ex-Marxist fools who thought they could salvage the wreck. Are you aware of the concept of hyperbole. HJB posted:People don't hate immigrants (at least, they didn't and they wouldn't), they hate the negative impact of the sheer number of immigrants on their lives. People want immigration reduced and controlled for the betterment of their own lives, not to spite immigrants. Yes, there are people who are violent and aggressive towards them, but that sort of person will always exist, there will always be racial hatred regardless. Right, but the majority of Germany probably didn't viscerally hate the jews. The holocaust didn't happen because the entire neighbourhood got together for lynching and grandma packed sandwiches for the trip, it happened because a minority of people really hated the jews, and a quiet majority approved of those people so long as their lives seemed to get better and it wasn't too much bother. And please, "sheer numbers" have not had a negative impact on people's lives. At least nothing close to what defunding and terrible regulation of capitalism have had.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:45
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