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Jose posted:turns out ignoring your traditional voter base and leading the country into a deeply unpopular illegal war fucks your party ...if you believe this, why is Corbyn making it worse rather than better?
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Feb 24, 2017 10:46
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HJB posted:People don't hate immigrants (at least, they didn't and they wouldn't), they hate the negative impact of the sheer number of immigrants on their lives. People want immigration reduced and controlled for the betterment of their own lives, not to spite immigrants. Yes, there are people who are violent and aggressive towards them, but that sort of person will always exist, there will always be racial hatred regardless. But even the idea of immigration being too high is very common but isn't particularly true in any sense. Migrants coming in are responsive for the continued operation of vital infrastructure and economic performance, it's that our economy and society is so broken that even with their help lots of things are still going to hell for lots of people. Trying to solve low wages or lack of housing through managing population movements might sound plausible but it isn't true in our case so there's no ground to give to the argument.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:47
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Jose posted:trident would solve this Dr Strangejose
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Feb 24, 2017 10:48
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Pissflaps posted:...if you believe this, why is Corbyn making it worse rather than better? its extremely hard to change the tide of public opinion when almost all of the country's press is against you. corbyn is bad but the labour rot is set in so deep people are going to suffer brexit and multiple tory governments before they change their mind the lack of anyone not completely poo poo to lead labour is also blair's fault
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Feb 24, 2017 10:50
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Jose posted:its extremely hard to change the tide of public opinion when almost all of the country's press is against you. corbyn is bad but the labour rot is set in so deep people are going to suffer brexit and multiple tory governments before they change their mind They will for as long as there isn't an opposition.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:51
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spectralent posted:Are you aware of the concept of hyperbole. Labour moving left would have had to contend with Social Democrats going the other way it didn't, so it didn't have to the contention that any alternative to continued decades of Tory rule would have triumphed does not, therefore, automatically imply a Labour government
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Feb 24, 2017 10:54
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Pissflaps posted:loving hell the Tories walked it. I did try to tell you  However the deeper analysis of Copeland is still a bit pointless in my opinion. Have many of you been to that constituency? There is literally nothing but the shipyard in Barrow and the nuclear sites at Sellafield. By dodging, distracting and deflecting on that issue Labour were always going to lose, especially when most people think the writing is on the wall for the NHS as a whole under this government (which Copeland returning a Labour MP wouldn't have done anything to stop). Most people probably just saw the vote as a choice between making minimum wage in the Tesco bakery or £50 an hour in the nuclear sector. My friend's wife got a job contracting there, all she did was carry some hats around and have plenty of fag breaks, taking home £2000 a month for her troubles. The only other job in the area you can make that money doing is the railway, which is dependant on the nuclear. As for the other argument about 'nationalising the railways doesn't connect with working class people' someone made, they obviously don't travel on trains very often. As a conductor who regularly works peak morning trains across the north west I can tell you there's more people in phone shop uniforms and supermarket attire than suits and briefcases travelling on some lines, if they can even get on the hugely overcrowded services of course.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:55
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ronya posted:Labour moving left would have had to contend with Social Democrats going the other way I don't think people who were fed up of the tories wanted an even more right-wing government.
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Feb 24, 2017 10:57
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btw kristtallnacht did feature neighbourhoods of people bringing their children to smash Jewish homes pogroms: fun for all the family
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Feb 24, 2017 11:01
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Bacon Terrorist posted:As for the other argument about 'nationalising the railways doesn't connect with working class people' someone made, they obviously don't travel on trains very often. As a conductor who regularly works peak morning trains across the north west I can tell you there's more people in phone shop uniforms and supermarket attire than suits and briefcases travelling on some lines, if they can even get on the hugely overcrowded services of course. The question is if those people would still believe that nationalising it would make it better* of it they'd assume it was crazy communist nonsense. I'm not confident they wouldn't think the latter, to be honest. *arguably it couldn't be worse, given the move to privatisation was done by a person with a d66 table to decide who got what bits of each franchise. Which is kind of the problem all around, really, because thatcher-era consumerism discourse has become How The World Works and we're never going to have a fair society under that rubric.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:03
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Aye, for all the hand wringing about how Corbyn is going to purge the Blairites Any Day Now, Tony Blair pretty much got rid of anyone he saw as a threat and replaced them with the likes of Tristram Hunt, leaving such a brain drain that an old man who'd mostly been seen as a joke by the Blairites was able to not only win against them but utterly trounce them in two separate occasions. Now Labour are stuck between a man unable to galvanise the public, a bunch of useless twats with bloodied hands over Iraq and who's only promise to the working class is to have a discussion on Immigration long after that discussion brought us Brexit and some promising new MP's who don't have the experience and probably won't be MP's come 2020. Corbyn isn't the problem, but he is a symptom of it.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:04
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ronya posted:btw kristtallnacht did feature neighbourhoods of people bringing their children to smash Jewish homes Kristallnacht happened in 1938, years after the nazi project had begun.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:04
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HJB posted:People don't hate immigrants (at least, they didn't and they wouldn't), they hate the negative impact of the sheer number of immigrants on their lives. People want immigration reduced and controlled for the betterment of their own lives, not to spite immigrants. Yes, there are people who are violent and aggressive towards them, but that sort of person will always exist, there will always be racial hatred regardless. We're keeping the country running and when you hunker down and close down the hatches and we start leaving en masse (because we can just hop around Europe looking for better conditions, something you won't be able to do, by the way) all the little racists that say things like "sheer numbers of immigrants! (lives in a village with 0.001% immigrants)" will blame us for the economic collapse, and the destruction of workers rights, and the rampant unemployment. But yeah it was us, evil european immigrants, all along, making house prices high.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:06
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spectralent posted:The question is if those people would still believe that nationalising it would make it better* of it they'd assume it was crazy communist nonsense. I'm not confident they wouldn't think the latter, to be honest. I'm quite sure most polling of public opinion shows renationalising the railways is almost as popular with the public as saving the NHS, cutting across party lines as an issue. There are several documentaries about how poo poo and complicated the railway is every year, never mind the guaranteed fare increases allowed by the government. The fact pacers are still running about is just the final insult. The reason the government doesn't want BR back is because it empowers the rail unions more, when they're arguably the strongest unions left in the country as it stands now anyway.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:09
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JFairfax posted:I do like working class people and I dislike Tory governments. I actually left the UK when the Tories got in in 2010. I refuse to live under the tories Lives under Trump
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Feb 24, 2017 11:10
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On the subject of Kristallnacht: wikipedia posted:The reaction of non-Jewish Germans to Kristallnacht was varied. Many spectators gathered on the scenes, most of them in silence. The local fire departments confined themselves to preventing the flames from spreading to neighbouring buildings. In Berlin, police Lieutenant Otto Bellgardt barred SA troopers from setting the New Synagogue on fire, earning his superior officer a verbal reprimand from the commissioner.[43] The British historian Martin Gilbert believes that "many non-Jews resented the round up",[44] his opinion being supported by German witness Dr. Arthur Flehinger who recalls seeing "people crying while watching from behind their curtains".[45] The extent of the damage was so great that many Germans are said to have expressed their disapproval of it, and to have described it as senseless.[46] You need a core group of frothing, violent racists, and a load of people who won't make a fuss if it looks like things will get better for them. You don't require an entire country to hate immigrants to get in a position where there are camps.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:13
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Gonzo McFee posted:Aye, for all the hand wringing about how Corbyn is going to purge the Blairites Any Day Now, Tony Blair pretty much got rid of anyone he saw as a threat and replaced them with the likes of Tristram Hunt, leaving such a brain drain that an old man who'd mostly been seen as a joke by the Blairites was able to not only win against them but utterly trounce them in two separate occasions. Now Labour are stuck between a man unable to galvanise the public, a bunch of useless twats with bloodied hands over Iraq and who's only promise to the working class is to have a discussion on Immigration long after that discussion brought us Brexit and some promising new MP's who don't have the experience and probably won't be MP's come 2020. agree on the broad thesis. on the details I'll point out that blair-brown fighting was particularly fatal as careers went. Iraq finished off the survivors. corbyn winning is self-inflicted in the sense of the £3 party member; the ideological problem of OMOV is obvious here. the Labour right really did it to itself
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Feb 24, 2017 11:14
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Gonzo McFee posted:Aye, for all the hand wringing about how Corbyn is going to purge the Blairites Any Day Now, Tony Blair pretty much got rid of anyone he saw as a threat and replaced them with the likes of Tristram Hunt, leaving such a brain drain that an old man who'd mostly been seen as a joke by the Blairites was able to not only win against them but utterly trounce them in two separate occasions. Now Labour are stuck between a man unable to galvanise the public, a bunch of useless twats with bloodied hands over Iraq and who's only promise to the working class is to have a discussion on Immigration long after that discussion brought us Brexit and some promising new MP's who don't have the experience and probably won't be MP's come 2020. The Blairites seem to be doing a pretty good job of purging themselves judging by Tristram Hunt and Jamie Reed
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Feb 24, 2017 11:15
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I mean, gently caress, Australia's already at the point where there are camps and I doubt literally every australian personally wants muslims to die. The fact so many people are still speaking out despite the gag order shows that.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:16
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Big difference between murdering a population who already live in a country and calling for tighter restrictions on who can enter a country because of economic concerns.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:18
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learnincurve posted:Big difference between murdering a population who already live in a country and calling for tighter restrictions on who can enter a country because of economic concerns. Do you really think the average racist stops to interview a given muslim to check they're getting their victimisation correctly-targeted? And yeah, I don't think we're at a point of mass-murder yet. I'm saying that the inevitable end-point of nationalist rhetoric is fascism and every time we go "We need to enable it to win, we can't argue with it" we just get closer and closer. "Tighter restrictions because of everyone's very reasonable concerns (that don't reflect reality but sell a lot of papers)" have already given australia detention camps.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:24
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Regarde Aduck posted:All those things were for nothing because of his desire for war. I think minimum wage, tax credits, reduced poverty, massive investment in schools and hospitals were good things even though Iraq was a very bad thing. Also abolishing section 28, civil partnerships, sure start, regional development agencies with lots of actual money , reform of the house of lords, peace in Northern Ireland and a big increase in foreign aid were good things. I think a Labour government led by another "right winger" would be much better for the country than helping keep the Tories in power by electing a useless Labour leader who never even wanted the job. Abolishing the bedroom tax and ending the persecution of disabled people would be good. It's not as if anyone really believes Labour's going to invade Iraq again.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:25
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ronya posted:agree on the broad thesis. on the details I'll point out that blair-brown fighting was particularly fatal as careers went. Iraq finished off the survivors. Thing of it is is that Corbyn won with people who were already members the first time. learnincurve posted:Big difference between murdering a population who already live in a country and calling for tighter restrictions on who can enter a country because of economic concerns. Economic Concerns which are entirely not the result of immigration. Economic Concerns that are going to get worse as a direct result of Brexit.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:25
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Paxman posted:I think a Labour government led by another "right winger" would be much better for the country than helping keep the Tories in power by electing a useless Labour leader who never even wanted the job. Abolishing the bedroom tax and ending the persecution of disabled people would be good. It's not as if anyone really believes Labour's going to invade Iraq again. The problem is that while New Labour might have been better than the Tories, their dedication to triangulation and desire to have MPs who are loyal to the leadership rather than actually competent have directly led to the situation we are in today. Plus it's hard to argue that Liz Kendall, Yvette Cooper or Owen Smith as leader would be less competent than Corbyn judging by the strength of their election campaigns.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:31
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Australia has always had incredibly tight restrictions on immigration, they have the army stationed on islands ready to turn people back since long before 9/11. There is literally no chance of anyone stupid enough to head to Australia as a refugee leaving those camps until Australia can work out a way to put them on ships and send them back. Australia gives no fucks if your country is in the middle of a war or not, it's your problem not Australias, back on the boats you go.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:33
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learnincurve posted:Australia has always had incredibly tight restrictions on immigration, they have the army stationed on islands ready to turn people back since long before 9/11. There is literally no chance of anyone stupid enough to head to Australia as a refugee leaving those camps until Australia can work out a way to put them on ships and send them back. Australia gives no fucks if your country is in the middle of a war or not, it's your problem not Australias, back on the boats you go. Minor correction here: Australia throws refugees into literal rape camps where people kill themselves rather than suffer another day.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:36
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Always shocked how a country that's so empty can have the gall to say it's full. Melanoma is too good for them.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:40
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Australia was a country built on camps, murder, and racism. The only reason that 1980s South Africa is considered a fascist hellhole and 1980s Australia was considered a chill put another prawn on the barbie place is because they'd already murdered almost everyone they could be racist against by then and shipped the rest off to camps or reservations. Other than that, they have some interesting flora and fauna.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:40
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ukle posted:The problem is Labour have already lost the immigration argument, and now need to embrace it as its by far the biggest issue for a significant section of the voting populous.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:41
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Private Eye posted:I refuse to live under the tories yeah this is a slight issue. trump will be gone in four years. the tories wont be.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:42
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It also ignores that Labour has been playing up to fears on immigration ever since it got into power.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:43
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JFairfax posted:yeah this is a slight issue. You think he'll be gone in four years? Lol.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:44
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yeah, one way or another trump will be gone in 4 years. anyway, I fully intend to be somewhere hot, sunny and by the sea before then.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:46
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Gonzo McFee posted:Aye, for all the hand wringing about how Corbyn is going to purge the Blairites Any Day Now, Tony Blair pretty much got rid of anyone he saw as a threat and replaced them with the likes of Tristram Hunt, leaving such a brain drain that an old man who'd mostly been seen as a joke by the Blairites was able to not only win against them but utterly trounce them in two separate occasions. Now Labour are stuck between a man unable to galvanise the public, a bunch of useless twats with bloodied hands over Iraq and who's only promise to the working class is to have a discussion on Immigration long after that discussion brought us Brexit and some promising new MP's who don't have the experience and probably won't be MP's come 2020.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:46
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JFairfax posted:yeah this is a slight issue. lol the Democrats make Labour look like a shining beacon of professionalism by comparison. The DNC still hasn't accepted they lost because Hillary was a poo poo candidate with a poo poo campaign. Gonzo McFee posted:Always shocked how a country that's so empty can have the gall to say it's full. Melanoma is too good for them. Australia is simultaneously one of the least densely populated countries on earth and one of the most heavily urbanised. A ridiculous proportion of the population live in a tiny few dots on the huge continent, it's actually pretty dense where people actually live.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:48
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ukle posted:Labour have a really easy way to appeal to the masses and it goes back to what Labour was originally set up for i.e. to support the workers. Make it so that people who are earning the regional median wage can afford to buy a house where they live, and that they can have a good quality of life. At present this is significantly broken in large parts of the country, hence why Stoke etc feel left behind as they are the have nots under the current system and have no way of getting out of this rut. Oh cool. I thought Labour was shafted but if we just use horrible Tory policies like home ownership they'll bounce right back! Pantsuit posted:Sorry Flaps but New Labour is to blame for literally all of Labours problems Nah. New Labour is to blame for most of Labour's problems in a structural sense but at the end of the day, Jeremy Corbyn has been leader for 18 months and his numbers just keep dropping. That is bad and is not Tony Blair's fault. That poo poo is on Corbyn, he has to take responsibility for something. Miserable but it does rather echo my feeling that Labour's problems do go deeper than just Jeremy. Fingerless Gloves posted:I wonder what would have happened if Corbyns choice of candidate actually was selected Likely exactly the same thing. HJB posted:People don't hate immigrants (at least, they didn't and they wouldn't), they hate the negative impact of the sheer number of immigrants on their lives. People want immigration reduced and controlled for the betterment of their own lives, not to spite immigrants. Yes, there are people who are violent and aggressive towards them, but that sort of person will always exist, there will always be racial hatred regardless. This is guff. The areas with strongest anti-immigrant sentiment are areas with 6 immigrants. Unsurprisingly, living among migrants leads to acknowledging that they are in fact just human beings like me.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:49
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Paxman posted:I think minimum wage, tax credits, reduced poverty, massive investment in schools and hospitals were good things even though Iraq was a very bad thing. For me it's this ridiculous obsession with blairites. There's been an influx of people into the Labour party (good) but all they want to focus on is attacking blair and blairites instead of talking about the tories and austerity. Momentum are much more interested in purging the party and fighting people who don't agree with Corbyn than they are actually fighting the current government. It's this ridiculous infighting which always gets attributed to the left, and surprise surprise people see this and relegate the current labour membership to the same levels of political seriousness as the swp/ cpb etc.. They should just start their own party, where they can crusade against liberals and blairites as much as they want, and let Labour sit as the solid centre-left alternative again, without this hysterical damaging membership which is doing Labour no good at all. And its actually incredibly poo poo because Corbyn is the kind of person that a good politician should be. He's principled, relatable and trustworthy. The sad facts are that his baggage means he'll never be elected PM. And he's been neutered by his supporters. Private Eye fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Feb 24, 2017 |
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Feb 24, 2017 11:49
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Private Eye posted:They should just start their own party, where they can crusade against liberals and blairites as much as they want, and let Labour sit as the solid centre-left alternative again, without this hysterical damaging membership which is doing Labour no good at all. This is correct. Especially those who believe parliamentary politics is a waste of time.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:54
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Private Eye posted:For me it's this ridiculous obsession with blairites. There's been an influx of people into the Labour party (good) but all they want to focus on is attacking blair and blairites instead of talking about the tories and austerity. Momentum are much more interested in purging the party and fighting people who don't agree with Corbyn than they are actually fighting the current government. It's this ridiculous infighting which always gets attributed to the left, and surprise surprise people see this and relegate the current labour membership to the same levels of political seriousness as the swp/ cpb etc.. You are aware thet the blairites started this particular battle, right? Also it doesn't bode well for the viability of your preferred politics when you admit that you can't even win inside your own party and instead demand that the opposition should all stop participating in the political process and let you win by default.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:55
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MikeCrotch posted:lol the Democrats make Labour look like a shining beacon of professionalism by comparison. the DNC are indeed poo poo but I just dont think trump will be around longer than four years. I may well be wrong, but the man is going to be in his mid 70s and being president is v. stressful, and he's out of shape + has pissed off numerous intelligence agencies. one way or another shits gonna go south for him.
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Feb 24, 2017 11:55
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