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e: y'know what never mind, point already made and there's no point beating a small pile of mushy horse flesh
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Feb 25, 2017 22:47
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Condiv posted:how is it immoral? i think my time is better spent working for other parties now and convincing other dems to abandon the dem party. You're in France. You aren't going to help anyone or do anything. You never did. You never will.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:47
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Wraith of J.O.I. posted:I just don't get the case for Perez here. It seems like they have way more to lose by him winning and alienating the sizable and very vocal Sanders wing—and it doesn't seem to me to matter whether or not that is actually warranted. This seems like a no brainer, and yet it's looking like Ellison will lose. Would love to be surprised though. The Sanders wing may be vocal, but it's not really "sizable". The Ellison vs Perez fight is usually portrayed as though the Dems were formerly a single entity that has been split in two, but that was never the case. The Dems are a big tent with dozens of factions, groups, movements, and wings of voters. The core Sanders base isn't the second-largest or even the third-largest faction under the Democratic umbrella, and they weren't even close to being the most important factor in the result of the 2016 elections. Each of the establishment candidates in the DNC race was chosen because the establishment thought they would appeal to demographics that the Dems have been losing lately. Bernie's successes - and failures - were the result of his appeal (or lack thereof) to other Dem factions besides his core "progressive college kids" base. While Bernie's base obviously went for Bernie's choice for the race, that doesn't mean that every group that voted Bernie will support Keith or that every group which supported Clinton will support Perez. For example, we can probably expect Ellison to markedly improve on Bernie's weakness with racial minorities, but Perez is known for his appeal among the Midwestern factory workers Hillary had such trouble with. Really, Perez would be a great chair, if not for the fact that he seems to be a poor campaigner who was slow to grasp that this is different from the usual DNC chair race, and has generally done poorly with cameras and even worse with surprises. SKULL.GIF posted:As spectators, we're all operating on incomplete information. But from the outside, we can see that Perez has already caved to the loyalists once in this campaign for DNC chair. Ellison seems much less tractable. Ellison has caved to the establishment at least three times - he backed down on banning lobbyist donations, he changed course on Israel and BDS, and he endorsed an establishment donor in the Florida DNC chair campaign. And each and every time, the same people who argued that Perez is a corrupt shill for the establishment had plenty of excuses to make for Ellison. Funny how that Sanders endorsement functions as a perfect impenetrable barrier against the taint of the establishment.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:48
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GreyjoyBastard posted:On the plus side if the big money donors' most conservative viable option was Tom Perez that's a wonderful sign. This is 100% true! One of our key advantages in the fight with the democratic establishment is that they are pragmatists, and as pragmatists they are laughably incompetent negotiators. Barack Obama was ready to slash the poo poo out of medicare to make John Boehner happy, and was only prevented from doing so by the Tea Party being too stupid to breathe. As we are not pragmatists, however, but people who actually have goals to achieve, this does not mean you let them off easy for their cowardice.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:48
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Trabisnikof posted:So are you going to vote Republican, vote for the Greens or stay home in 2018? If you genuinely want change at this point Do it at a local level Vote socialist, vote people with socialist positions, vote people who are pro-working class and are not inhuman war hawk monsters like HRC I am not counting on the Democrats to win anything anytime soon They have literally nothing at the moment and yet they still refuse to throw out the map that got them here
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Feb 25, 2017 22:48
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:TBF the argument in this thread from the Clintonistas was "This doesn't even matter, why do you care?" so this is the logical answer to that argument. Really, not immediately entering the race is shady? Wouldn't it be shadier if the establishment had a candidate lined up from the beginning?
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Feb 25, 2017 22:48
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Condiv posted:dems loving die, get replaced by a party that actually represents its voters. I'm sure the party is quaking in their boots that SA poster Condiv is going to destroy the party by sitting on the sidelines and wishing for a magical left-wing party to spring forth from the ground fully formed...Which is the exact same thing he/she did before. Just absolutely terrified.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:48
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I'm not super happy about Perez, but there isn't a single reason that comes from Perez himself. It's more that I don't like that the DNC couldn't even throw a bone to the Sanderista wing of the party and support unity. We need to be honest about this part: Perez is the one who chose Ellison the way he did, and from all the dinner meeting stuff, it sounds like it's something two old friends worked out so that they could stay the course both of them want to take. It's probably not something the old guard told Perez to do. I Like This Post.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:49
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Queering Wheel posted:that's not the POINT you IDIOT Maybe they felt Perez was more qualified and their personal experiences with him led them to support his run. Oh wait no it can't be that it has to be that a minority part of the Democratic Party is so amazing and threatening that backroom smoke filled rooms were assembled to put arch conservative Perez in power and Red Belly Ellis at his side like salacious crumb.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:49
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Do we have any solid proof that Perez was forced in by the establishment period, and wasn't at all running to compete with a personal friend (that he clearly plans to work with and listen to) and enact similar policies with nuanced differences in focus? I don't like the lack of personal agency being given here. Do we have any proof that Perez didn't want to do this?
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Feb 25, 2017 22:50
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Craptacular! posted:To the people unhappy, if Ellison had won and named Perez deputy chair, would you be happy? Or would be upset that he gave a bone to those dang neoliberalism and now they'll triangulate all the leverage away? i'd of been fine with that ImpAtom posted:So, Condiv, if literally everyone left the Democratic party and joined a new party, how would it be different from the Democratic Party as it exists now? very likely yes. the leadership of the party is entirely disconnected from the base. Quorum posted:I thought you said that couldn't happen by 2018 when one-party rule happens? it's not likely, but much more satisfying than trying to work with dems that hate leftism until 2018 and then being even more depressed when we lose. Oxxidation posted:You're in France. You aren't going to help anyone or do anything. You never did. You never will. yeah, nope. already trying to organize some americans here. JeffersonClay posted:Lol the trump supporter reveals himself. what are you talking about JC? 
Condiv fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Feb 25, 2017 |
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Feb 25, 2017 22:50
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ImpAtom posted:Okay, genuine question. What do you think the best possible outcome of this is. Like the absolute best possible outcome? True. And the difference is that one of them was expressly put in the race so that the clintonites could feel like they still ran at least one part of the political party they lead to crushing defeat against a fat orange clown with a fifth-grade reading level. As such, his victory is not encouraging.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:50
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Ze Pollack posted:This is 100% true! One of our key advantages in the fight with the democratic establishment is that they are pragmatists, and as pragmatists they are laughably incompetent negotiators. Barack Obama was ready to slash the poo poo out of medicare to make John Boehner happy, and was only prevented from doing so by the Tea Party being too stupid to breathe. Great news! Our leadership is a bunch of weak willed pussies. Their political risks will always skew rightward!!
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Feb 25, 2017 22:51
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:If you genuinely want change at this point So you're argument is "Democrats lose too much, so instead vote socialist" I don't think that follows. Why isn't it better to push the Democratic Party to be more socialist? By all means, if you can find local socialists with a chance to win, go for it. But only a few privileged Americans live in communities where that's viable.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:51
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Condiv posted:very likely yes. the leadership of the party is entirely disconnected from the base. Okay. Who would be the leadership of this new magical party that somehow springs out of thin air? Where do you think they would come from? At best, if you assumed every Democrat suddenly left the Democratic party to join the SandersIsGreat party, you'd get a reshuffling of deck chairs with a lot of the same people involved. Politicians with connections and capital necessary to sustain elections are not going to appear out of thin air.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:51
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Trabisnikof posted:Really, not immediately entering the race is shady? No you don't get it, see no matter what Perez had done it would've been proof of a vast Establishment conspiracy.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:52
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looking foward to binning the DNC fundraiser letters I've been holding on to when I get home
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Feb 25, 2017 22:52
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Trabisnikof posted:So you're argument is "Democrats lose too much, so instead vote socialist" I don't think that follows. Why isn't it better to push the Democratic Party to be more socialist? It is strictly unviable at the moment to run mediocre candidates, they’re simply not cut out for dealing with Trump and keeping an increasingly demanding public at bay Local change and state level resistance is the best way going forward Knowing Perez, he’s going to dole out money to unlikeable shits who would otherwise prefer to work with Trump if it weren’t for protestors outside their house 24/7
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Feb 25, 2017 22:54
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The Kingfish posted:Great news! Our leadership is a bunch of weak willed pussies. Their political risks will always skew rightward!! They conceded their way to Perez in terror. This is advantageous. So we keep pushing. The bright side of the clintonites being cowardly triangulators is that as long as you understand their instinctive reaction when threatened is to slide in the direction of the person scaring them, it's not just Republicans who can take them to the loving cleaners every time they sit down at the negotiating table.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:54
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ImpAtom posted:Okay. Who would be the leadership of this new magical party that somehow springs out of thin air? Where do you think they would come from? it doesn't spring out of thin air. currently trying to organize a DSA group where I live. Likewise, I'd vote for and support socialist party of america candidates and DSA approved candidates.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:54
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Raskolnikov38 posted:looking foward to binning the DNC fundraiser letters I've been holding on to when I get home And thus ensuring the Party never even notices you "punishing" them by not donating.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:54
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https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/835597142458789888 Bernie is looking forward to working with Perez and will give him a chance to stick to the principles he's committed to. What an establishment shill. Sad!
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Feb 25, 2017 22:55
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Trabisnikof posted:Really, not immediately entering the race is shady? They did have a candidate lined up from the beginning. Ellison had a number of prominent establishment endorsements before he even officially entered the race.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:55
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ImpAtom posted:So, Condiv, if literally everyone left the Democratic party and joined a new party, how would it be different from the Democratic Party as it exists now? We need a socialist party to provide an alternative to the Democrats and Republicans. Without a national socialist party, people will revert back ot the two default options. We need the third viable option to break the cycle.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:55
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Raskolnikov38 posted:looking foward to binning the DNC fundraiser letters I've been holding on to when I get home Obviously the DNC isn't going to be hurting for money with neoliberal corporatist stooge Perez in charge, maybe you should threaten to cut yourself?
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Feb 25, 2017 22:55
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"Perez was put into the dnc election. He was placed. He was planted." Clearly Perez is an animatronic puppet held up by a big menacing cloud labeled "the establishment", and not a real human being with personal goals and motivations for running for a political position.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:55
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Ze Pollack posted:They conceded their way to Perez in terror. This is advantageous. So we keep pushing. no, they have a backbone when it comes to the left. clintonites can only be relied upon to triangulate towards fascism
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Feb 25, 2017 22:56
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Raskolnikov38 posted:looking foward to binning the DNC fundraiser letters I've been holding on to when I get home Oh no throwing away fundraising letters! That's a problem right there and not something pretty much everyone does because holy poo poo the DNC sends so many fundraising letters. Everyone who is having a meltdown because last year's arch progressive won and the guy they wanted got vice chair instead of the guy they wanted getting chair and the arch progressive getting vice chair needs to take a deep breath, take some time to yourself and chill.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:56
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Trabisnikof posted:Really, not immediately entering the race is shady? I don't care what would look shadier or whether it actually was or not. What I'm saying is that it doesn't look good, and you shouldn't brush aside people worried about that as being literal children like a lot of you are doing ITT. These are valid concerns that should be addressed, and brushing them off as being just wrong is what makes people stay home and not give a poo poo and the dems will continue losing elections. There's a direct correlation in this that you're missing.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:56
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1) gently caress the Democratic party so hard right now. They are stupid and corrupt and awful and I hope the whole thing burns to the ground. This has nothing to do with the election outcome though. I just wanted to hate on Democrats for a bit. 2) Both candidates came across as corporate shills that are only slightly better than a traditional neoliberal so on content alone I really don't care about the outcome that much one way or another.  3) That said the optics for this are awful. This will be perceived as a slap in the face of the progressive wing and I can promise you that tomorrow there will be hundreds of YouTube videos flooding the internet screaming about how the party is broken and would rather loose to Republicans than win with progressives. Pucker your butts because the civil war is about to get way more intense. 4) Giving Ellison deputy status was a good move but it will only stem so much of bleeding. The bottom line is that the party was given a choice between the Clinton and Sanders wings of the party and they chose Clinton. People notice these kinds of things and don't forgive them easily. 5) Calling it now. We're going to only pick up a few seats in 2018 and loose the presidency again in 2020. The Democrats are hellbent on learning nothing from their losses and I see no reason why this trend won't continue for the foreseeable future.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:57
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:It is strictly unviable at the moment to run mediocre candidates, they’re simply not cut out for dealing with Trump and keeping an increasingly demanding public at bay Where do you live that the Socialist Party is fielding a full slate of non-mediocre candidates at the local level?
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Feb 25, 2017 22:58
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Condiv posted:it doesn't spring out of thin air. currently trying to organize a DSA group where I live. Likewise, I'd vote for and support socialist party of america candidates and DSA approved candidates. Well, have fun with that in France.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:58
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I don't care what would look shadier or whether it actually was or not. What I'm saying is that it doesn't look good, and you shouldn't brush aside people worried about that as being literal children like a lot of you are doing ITT. These are valid concerns that should be addressed, and brushing them off as being just wrong is what makes people stay home and not give a poo poo and the dems will continue losing elections. There's a direct correlation in this that you're missing. No. They. Aren't. Because if he had been in from the start you'd have been saying "See! see! It was rigged from the get go" There is literally no pleasing you people so why even bother?
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Feb 25, 2017 22:58
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I don't care what would look shadier or whether it actually was or not. What I'm saying is that it doesn't look good, and you shouldn't brush aside people worried about that as being literal children like a lot of you are doing ITT. These are valid concerns that should be addressed, and brushing them off as being just wrong is what makes people stay home and not give a poo poo and the dems will continue losing elections. There's a direct correlation in this that you're missing. There were two establishment candidates in this race, and they both won, to the detriment of grassroots candidates like Buttigieg.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:58
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Trabisnikof posted:Where do you live that the Socialist Party is fielding a full slate of non-mediocre candidates at the local level? His/her own fantasy reality. Or France 
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Feb 25, 2017 22:59
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readingatwork posted:4) Giving Ellison deputy status was a good move but it will only stem so much of bleeding. The bottom line is that the party was given a choice between the Clinton and Sanders wings of the party and they chose Clinton. People notice these kinds of things and don't forgive them easily. How is Ellison the Sanders wing of the party besides Sanders endorsing him? Ellison is not Sanders. He is a Democrat. Sanders endorsing him does not make him Sanders. Perez is obviously preferable to the DNC but this is not Clinton's Best Friend vs the ROGUE OUTSIDER.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:59
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*sees Tom Perez won the DNC Chair.* *sees 1,000 new posts in Dem thread* oh god
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Feb 25, 2017 23:00
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ImpAtom posted:Well, have fun with that in France. i am. I've already got some nibbles on starting an org. Trabisnikof posted:Where do you live that the Socialist Party is fielding a full slate of non-mediocre candidates at the local level? you're missing the part where we stop voting for non-socialist candidates. cause if you guys will only support centrists then we might as well only support leftists
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Feb 25, 2017 23:00
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Trabisnikof posted:Where do you live that the Socialist Party is fielding a full slate of non-mediocre candidates at the local level? They don’t necessarily need money to be that successful. The recent elections in Kansas proved it. You just have to adopt positions people like. The Democrats are not going to find the talent they need by 2020. axeil posted:No. They. Aren't. This sort of thinking is going to serve the party so well 4 years from now.
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Feb 25, 2017 23:02
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Last post on this matter. If you all are really and truly upset and not just arguing on the Internet for fun then go get involved with your local party. Even in the deep blue stronghold that is NOVA the local party had plenty of things that need done and seats that need filled. If you want to change the party, then do what Bernie encouraged his supporters to do at the end of his campaign and get involved. If you succeed then congrats you're helping change the party away from all the people like me you seem to hate. If you lose, well now you've got evidence of this vast conspiracy you all seem to think people like me are involved in. Either way you win. So go get involved in your local party. Prove me wrong.
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Feb 25, 2017 23:03
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