|
Countblanc posted:That's true but if the argument is that you don't make tactical decisions then "use the same power twice ASAP" doesn't really refute that. Ah, but that would generally be the wrong tactical decision because if you used your E1, rallied, then used your E1 again you'd be wasting the healing.
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 01:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 00:31 |
|
|
Simian_Prime posted:One hurdle I've found when running PbtA games for new gamer is that they get "analysis paralysis" when put on the spot. Seems like a good module for the system would just approach the problem by saying "Are your players stuck for ideas? Here's some stuff you can suggest to them. But if they come up with something themselves, go with that instead." Y'know, a broad book full of interesting info and plot seeds but no "then two days later, in the town of Wyrmscrote..." type stuff might do really well. Maybe I'll do something like that for DW.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 01:41
|
|
|
And I agree with the idea of at-wills feeling pretty brainless at times since you might have Your Good One and Your Esoteric One, which is why I pushed hard for the now-existent "3 at-will" errata. I think that opens up combat space if people are just dropping Encounter powers immediately (which I don't necessarily think is really the best strategy anyway??? but there you go).
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 01:41
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:Ah, but that would generally be the wrong tactical decision because if you used your E1, rallied, then used your E1 again you'd be wasting the healing. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 01:42
|
|
|
Is there a list for Strike! Errata Count? Thinking of doing either a friday game of either it or PTU again, Shinsengumi themed.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 01:53
|
|
|
Here you go.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 01:58
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:That's true but if the argument is that you don't make tactical decisions then "use the same power twice ASAP" doesn't really refute that. The way I interpreted Ferrinus' posts was that he was saying that there were still more decisions to make even after your choice of power, whether power selection was obvious or not. E.g. how and when to move, who to target, how to apply any effects you have that give you choices (sliding around allies and enemies), how to use your Role Power, what order to use your powers. Plus any other decisions created by the actions of the enemies, the terrain, and the narrative situation.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 02:06
|
|
|
Mr.Misfit posted:So, if I understand thread consensus correctly in SA TG, metaplot is bad, right? It's usually a matter of PC agency. A game with an ongoing metaplot often takes this away from PCs in one or more of the following ways: 1. Granting some NPCs a "protected" status that makes them untouchable or outright dangerous for PCs to interact with just to ensure they survive until the point in the metaplot where they do an important thing. This usually ties into: 2. Depriving PCs of any ability to impact the story because all the important NPCs are doing the heavy lifting, so the PCs are relegated to bystanders in a really dumb audio play. And it's not like the PCs will be able to tell when they have the ability to act or prevent problems anyway because: 3. A lot of metaplots deliberately hide major plot points from the GM and the players, even when they're incredibly relevant and diverging from them would invalidate the "canon". so I hope you enjoy having a world of your own making that's not compatible with any books we publish in the future, you pleb 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 02:20
|
|
|
Thank you
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 02:24
|
|
|
I'm actually working on an adventure slash campaign thing with multiple branching paths based on player actions and the further I get into it the harder it's getting to make both meaningful choices and have any kind of plot whatsoever. Now I see why Bioware just half asses it in their mass effect games.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 02:34
|
|
|
Kwyndig posted:I'm actually working on an adventure slash campaign thing with multiple branching paths based on player actions and the further I get into it the harder it's getting to make both meaningful choices and have any kind of plot whatsoever. Now I see why Bioware just half asses it in their mass effect games. Which is what I encountered as well, and are therefore asking. I´m currently writing a localized sandbox module based around a locale (lets call it a "city") in which different factions with different goals plot against each other, and each faction comes with a storyline (aka a scenario) Depending on which scenario the players go for, another gets locked off, as they will be working directly against the opposing faction. Also, each scenario has to include what happened if the players have already finished or are working on another scenario. With eventualities for EVERY OPTION of ending the other scenarios have. I´ve got 10 scenarios so far. That means about 20 different eventualities for each scene that has connections to another faction due to the way each scenario can end...'barf'. So by having the players being the movers and shakers of that sandbox, I´m trying to involve and give them guidance, but not force their hand. But at the same time, it feels strange to have this pre-determined as plot in scene-layout. But I can´t think of another way of evolving this, because organic gaming stories that work off of snippets don´t require or are even to combine into this. Its like a totally different string of gaming, in a way. How bizarre. Is it only "free scenario/plot construction" or "story time children!"?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 02:42
|
|
|
It's a lot of goddamn work with relatively little payoff, is what it is. That level of scenario design requires a meticulous attention to detail. You'd probably be better off just broad sketching each one and then only narrowing down on the ones the players follow up on unless you're trying to sell it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 02:54
|
|
|
Kwyndig posted:I'm actually working on an adventure slash campaign thing with multiple branching paths based on player actions and the further I get into it the harder it's getting to make both meaningful choices and have any kind of plot whatsoever. Now I see why Bioware just half asses it in their mass effect games. Games were better when the plots were railroaded. Emptyquote, Retweet and Share if you agree.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 02:56
|
|
|
Mr.Misfit posted:Which is what I encountered as well, and are therefore asking. I´m currently writing a localized sandbox module based around a locale (lets call it a "city") in which different factions with different goals plot against each other, and each faction comes with a storyline (aka a scenario) Depending on which scenario the players go for, another gets locked off, as they will be working directly against the opposing faction. Also, each scenario has to include what happened if the players have already finished or are working on another scenario. With eventualities for EVERY OPTION of ending the other scenarios have. I´ve got 10 scenarios so far. That means about 20 different eventualities for each scene that has connections to another faction due to the way each scenario can end...'barf'.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 02:56
|
|
|
I came in late; what are we supposed to be arguing about now?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:01
|
|
|
Mr.Misfit posted:So, if I understand thread consensus correctly in SA TG, metaplot is bad, right? Metaplot is bad in the sense that Onyxia always dies in the same way, and hell, the players are always expected to kill Onyxia (or if not, someone from the metaplot will!) It removes player agency by defining how the world will move forward regardless of what the players do, when the core of the TRPG hobby is that because the world you're playing in is all in your imaginations, you should be free to shape it as you will, and not according to how some writer wants it to be.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:06
|
|
|
Evil Mastermind posted:I came in late; what are we supposed to be arguing about now? Got 'em.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:17
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:So, quick question, what is wrong with rolling a d20 to decide something? Josef bugman posted:That mean you have an equal chance of rolling a 20 as a 1, whilst on a set of two d6's you have more of a chance of rolling a 7-9. When looking at the d20 mechanic, think of the +x bonuses of your roll, versus the [DC-10] of your target number. If your total bonuses are higher than the DC's "excess of 10", then your chances for success are much better with a 3d6 roll, than with a 1d20 roll. Consider "1d20+5, with a DC of 13". Your +5 exceeds the "3 excess of 10" by 2. Under a 1d20 system, you would have a 65% chance of success. Under a 3d6 system, you would have an 83.80% chance of success. --- Conversely, if your total bonuses are less than the DC's "excess of 10", then your chances for success are much worse. Consider "1d20+6, with a DC of 19". Your +6 falls short of the "9 excess of 10" by 3. Under a 1d20 system, you would have a 40% chance of success. Under a 3d6 system, you would have an 25.93% chance of success. --- The net effect is that rolls and results (and the game as a whole) are pushed more towards the average expected result. If you have a statistical advantage over your enemy (+5 to attack versus 13 AC), then you are significantly more likely to win, and win sooner, with a 3d6 roll than with a 1d20 roll. On the other hand, if you are starting off with a statistical disadvantage, then it's also far less likely that you can pull a rabbit out of your hat and pull out a win just by standing there swinging. But then, consider a situation where you have, say, +5 to attack versus an enemy's 17 AC. It looks bad - you only have a 37.50% chance to hit. But if you throw in flanking for an additional +2, and then say party buffs / special abilities for another +2, now you're swinging at +9 to attack versus 17 AC, and now you have an 83.80% chance to hit. That's so much better! It requires a bunch of stat savvy from the GM to engineer these sorts of situations (or maybe not - just throw monsters at the party and tell them to deal with it), but you can end up evoking scenarios where teamwork and cooperation are much more important, but also much more rewarding.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:20
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:Got 'em. ...good? 
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:27
|
|
|
Yawgmoth posted:This sounds like a thing a flowchart would actually be good for (as opposed to forcibly jammed into place without cause or warning). Just have each scenario its own little bubble with each likely resolution a different arrow. Make it less about what the players do to affect resolutions and more what those events are and you ought to be less hosed than trying to predict said actions; e.g. "Billy is going to be assassinated!" would have "Billy is dead" and "Billy lives" as arrows. Have some general notes about the various factions and their goals, what the PCs can offer/be offered, etc. so if they want help from the Basket Weaver's Guild to protect Billy they have that option if they offer up whatever. Can you ...graphic that up somehow? I have difficulties imagining how that would actually look like.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 03:53
|
|
|
Kwyndig posted:I'm actually working on an adventure slash campaign thing with multiple branching paths based on player actions and the further I get into it the harder it's getting to make both meaningful choices and have any kind of plot whatsoever. Now I see why Bioware just half asses it in their mass effect games. This is why I just make poo poo up on the fly pretty much all the time. I can't even imagine the work it would take to figure it all out beforehand.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 04:25
|
|
|
Mr.Misfit posted:Can you ...graphic that up somehow? I have difficulties imagining how that would actually look like. Not Yawgmoth, but I've made a basic flow chart in Paint that I think is what he's going for? An actual organized person could do better work, no doubt.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 05:21
|
|
|
I though that Robin Law's Sharper Adventures in Heroquest had some pretty interesting things to say about designing branching adventures. It's nominally about Heroquest: Glorantha, but it's all pretty universal design theory. For example, flowcharts:  
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 05:38
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:Metaplot is bad in the sense that Onyxia always dies in the same way, and hell, the players are always expected to kill Onyxia (or if not, someone from the metaplot will!) Metaplot sucks for a few different reasons, several of which intersect in the same place. It sucks because, as gradenko more or less says, it puts things on rails in a hobby where the principal selling point is You Can Do Anything. The corollary to this is that when a designer decides to incorporate a metaplot into his game it means that he's going to be thinking in terms of designing things like adventures and plot hooks in an on-rails fashion, which means that the quality of things like published adventures suffer as a result. Taken even further an adherence to metaplot can even affect non-adventure portions of an ongoing RPG line. If Vampire Clan Nosfradamus gets mass-exsanguinated in the metaplot-adventure Night of 10,000 Fangs and then the next iteration of the core rulebook follows suit by replacing the Nosfradamus clan with something else you now have metaplot encroaching upon the rest of the game in a way that's bound to rub people wrong because maybe not everyone gives a poo poo about it or wants to play Night of 10,000 Fangs but now this entire chunk of player-facing material has been paved over for the sake of the designer's ongoing narrative. Metaplot can also encourage designers to treat things like they're penning some kind of Republic serial and need to dangle cliffhangers and to-be-continueds in front of people by revealing and explaining things on a drip-feed. Probably the prime example of this is Pinnacle Entertainment back in the pre-Savage Worlds days, they did this sort of poo poo all the time. Every sourcebook and every adventure had at least one section that was essentially "So what's the deal with [X]? Welllllllllll...we can't tell you NOW, but trust us when we say it's reeeeaaaallllllll important, but if you buy the NEXT book in our line we might just give you the answer, wink-wink."
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 06:26
|
|
|
The one time I've seen metaplot I actually liked was Delta Green, which was the most hands-off metaplot possible and exists mostly as suggestions on how to update the setting for the 15 years that had passed since DG was originally released, and some tie-in novels that fans were explicitly told to ignore if they didn't like it. The "respectability" of Delta Green's metaplot is greatly helped by there being relatively little of it, and the author's very understandable statements that it would be nonsensical to pretend that the setting they wrote in 1997 can be used unmodified in 2017.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 06:46
|
|
|
Torg was also metaplotty as gently caress, given that a lot of the metaplot stuff happened not in the books, but in the newsletter. To make matters worse, the writers assumed you'd read and memorized everything that had been published. So when they referred to something that happened in the newsletter in one of the books, they never did a "here's a summary to refresh your memory" thing or put in a note that said "this happened in issue X of the newsletter". Bear in mind that this was back in the 90's, so it's not like you could go and buy a PDF of a back issue: if you came in late tough titties. Deadlands at least had the courtesy to tell you what books things happened in or would summarize past events for you. I know I'm probably biased, but I'd say that Torg's metaplot was worse than Deadlands'. Mainly because Torg's lasted longer, the newsletter thing, and it got in the way a lot more. Like, with Deadlands they really didn't have huge plot beats that got in the way of a day-to-day campaign (stuff like Stone or other unkillable NPCS notwithstanding) because at the heart it was basically "Cheesy Western + <other genre>". Anything that "blew up" or invalidated part of the setting really didn't happen until the end of the various game lines. You didn't have to know the ins and outs of the setting to be able to enjoy it. But with Torg, you had the canon novel trilogy that was the setup to the whole game line, plus multiple "here's where the metaplot is now" books, and at one point they blow up about a third of North America with about two years left in the overall metaplot. It doesn't help that Torg is basically ten setting in one, and each one had a full 90-page supplement plus important NPCs and reality borders moving all over the place.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 06:48
|
|
|
gnome7 posted:Hi, I spent like 3 months putting this thing together and here seems like the best place to post it. Nuns with Guns posted:a sister article or a modified article that breaks down the pros/cons of each D&D edition would be cool, too, for the people who are inevitably going to be all "No! D&D!". It'd also give space to recommend the modern retroclones, imitators, and spinoffs that are more widely available and more sanely-structured than a lot of early D&D stuff I resemble this remark. If this becomes A Thing please include my thing in the list  p.s. There is a new post up today, listing some more recent changes/updates. P.d0t fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Feb 26, 2017 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 06:51
|
|
|
Nuns with Guns posted:a sister article or a modified article that breaks down the pros/cons of each D&D edition would be cool, too, for the people who are inevitably going to be all "No! D&D!". It'd also give space to recommend the modern retroclones, imitators, and spinoffs that are more widely available and more sanely-structured than a lot of early D&D stuff There's a pretty well-maintained list of retroclones here: http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/dd-retroclones.html that could be used as a starting point. The curation would come to identifying which ones are actually worth playing, and why. (Arrows of Indra? seriously?)
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 06:55
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:There's a pretty well-maintained list of retroclones here: http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/dd-retroclones.html that could be used as a starting point. Most OSR games are good, but there definitely are some that stand above the crowd
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 07:42
|
|
|
Evil Mastermind posted:Torg was also metaplotty as gently caress, given that a lot of the metaplot stuff happened not in the books, but in the newsletter. TORG is hot garbage with some maybe cool art, which this sort of thing just sits on top of like an Ibis.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 07:49
|
|
|
I always felt Shadowrun did metaplot in a mostly okay fashion. There were big NPCs who were plot protected but I never got the sense that runners should be loving about at that level. Mostly it just seemed like most of the metaplot stuff was to spew plot hooks in tons of directions. But I may not have played enough modules.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 07:54
|
|
|
Something I learned when dealing with metaplot was to start in the past. That is, if you have a timeline detailing the last 300 years of the Barsoomian Airbag Battles, don't begin the campaign on Jan 1, War-Year 300, where the writer wants you to start it. Instead, pick a nice inflection point, like three months before a climactic battle in the year 125, and start there. If the players want to get involved enough in the world that they'll participate and even decide the fate of that battle, then cool beans. If not, then that's okay too - but either way, you still have 175 years of already-written plot advancement to derive from (but not strictly enforce!) without having to wait for the next book to come down the line. Plus, these timelines are usually vague enough in their details that you don't have to go along with whatever DM-PC the writer wanted you to use. Plus, these pivotal points in history are usually better tailored for world-changing events. Or to put another way, if you were to start a game of "Real Real Life The RPG", don't start the clock on Feb 27, 2017 and try to predict the future (or wait for the future to happen). Instead, begin the game on June 27 1914 in the back-alleys of Sarajevo and make like Harry Turdledove* * except better, because literally Turtledove is awfully derivative and repetitive
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 07:55
|
|
|
Yawgmoth posted:This sounds like a thing a flowchart would actually be good for (as opposed to forcibly jammed into place without cause or warning). Just have each scenario its own little bubble with each likely resolution a different arrow. Make it less about what the players do to affect resolutions and more what those events are and you ought to be less hosed than trying to predict said actions; e.g. "Billy is going to be assassinated!" would have "Billy is dead" and "Billy lives" as arrows. Have some general notes about the various factions and their goals, what the PCs can offer/be offered, etc. so if they want help from the Basket Weaver's Guild to protect Billy they have that option if they offer up whatever. It kinda sounds like a program called Twine could be really helpful here. It was designed for interactive fiction and how it displays events is very flow chart-y, plus you can add in details that only transpire if certain events have happened.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 08:18
|
|
|
Antivehicular posted:Not Yawgmoth, but I've made a basic flow chart in Paint that I think is what he's going for? An actual organized person could do better work, no doubt. Right, I´m going to try my hand at this and come back later on to see how that works out. In the meantime, I think I´ve found something cringeworthy I suppose we might get some Fatal & Friends-type enjoyment out of...have you guys heard of FANTASY IMPERIUM? Link
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 08:34
|
|
|
I'm running the classic D&D module Castle Amber in the Game Room using World of Dungeons if anyone's interested in joining some French Castlevania-style shenanigans.quote:Right, I´m going to try my hand at this and come back later on to see how that works out. Goon-favorite podcast System Mastery did a pretty hilarious review of this game. Wasn't this the game that gave ability-modifiers for gender because  , but ironically made women better at combat?
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 09:26
|
|
|
Simian_Prime posted:[...] Why it is! Off to re-listen to that one then! *toot toot*
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 09:47
|
|
|
Mr.Misfit posted:Right, I´m going to try my hand at this and come back later on to see how that works out. Simian_Prime posted:Goon-favorite podcast System Mastery did a pretty hilarious review of this game. Wasn't this the game that gave ability-modifiers for gender because Out of horrifying curiosity I looked it up, and as far as I can tell, it also doesn't exist anymore.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 12:37
|
|
|
P.d0t posted:I resemble this remark. your game isn't even done or formally published outside of a google doc
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 17:30
|
|
|
Speaking of, are there any particularly good "unfinished" rules out there that aren't fantasy based? Seems like everybody only ever does fantasy homebrew.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 18:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 00:31 |
|
|
Kwyndig posted:Speaking of, are there any particularly good "unfinished" rules out there that aren't fantasy based? Seems like everybody only ever does fantasy homebrew. I figure because modern/sci-fi stuff is just fuckin' difficult.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2017 18:58
|
|
