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there's always some slight that they're gonna threaten to do so and the only answer remains what it's always been: run someone who can credibly speak to the left as an actual candidate for office If, say, Bernie wins the primary in 2020, I don't think people are gonna stay home because Perez won the DNC chair race in 2017
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Feb 27, 2017 05:37
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Lightning Lord posted:Oh right Everyone has a hobby. Mine used to be video games and tabletop games, now it's fixing America by bringing back socialism to public doscourse and ending big money. Not just in politics, but in general.
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Feb 27, 2017 05:39
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What kills me is how Perez was such a blatant power play for the establishment wing of the party. It's not even that he's a terrible choice for the chair, it's that he had no legitimate reason to run other than to poo poo out the progressive wing. The centrists need to come up with a reason for why their candidate is better. Even if I'm 95% sure that reason is bullshit, it's better to be fed some line than what just happened with Perez. Even the most moderate centrists were forced to admit that the DNC chair was decided by influence peddlers without regard to policy.
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Feb 27, 2017 05:46
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icantfindaname posted:https://twitter.com/freddoso/status/835590478988877824 He's probably right.
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Feb 27, 2017 05:47
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Lightning Lord posted:Getting young people to vote is pretty much the most important thing possible and yes, regardless of your feelings on Tom Perez himself, this was a bad blow for that because of the way less experienced voters usually process politics. I really am frustrated despite liking Perez and thinking he will be a good leader. But I think the way to work with that is to provide a constant "Here's why this isn't as bad as you think" message, one crafted not to patronize or be a repeat of "Actually, America Is Still Great". I really am terrified that a shitload of young people are going to just fold up and consume their ballots now. Eh, I'm not that pessimistic, I don't think Perez' victory will cause the average millenial to quit the party in spite. But it is a potentially worrying sign Ogmius815 posted:He's probably right. Winning back 2 or 3 state legislatures isn't anywhere near good enough. If he thinks it is that's a major problem
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Feb 27, 2017 05:50
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icantfindaname posted:Winning back 2 or 3 state legislatures isn't anywhere near good enough. If he thinks it is that's a major problem Where does that say he thinks it's going to be enough?
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Feb 27, 2017 05:56
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SKULL.GIF posted:That is exactly what's happening. I've had to argue to convince a few youngins (by that I mean people still in their very early 20s) to stick with the party for 2018 at least. Fortunately, they seem to be listening to me, but I don't know about the other few million of them. better luck than i've had. the longer dems drag their feet, the more radicalized young people are getting to compensate for what they perceive as an inadequate response to what's going down, and the harder it will be to win them back. that's why this is so loving scary to me, i feel like we just fumbled our biggest chance to prevent that problem before it becomes too steep to handle.
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Feb 27, 2017 06:03
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La La Land the Tom Perez of Oscar picks for Best Picture just won instead of the Keith Ellison choice, Moonlight  Um Actually, Moonlight won. The wrong card was read. What is this world?
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Feb 27, 2017 06:10
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yeah wow no way the black movie loses to a fluff romance with loveable goof emma stone edit: not changing this because its still basically true
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Feb 27, 2017 07:08
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Holy poo poo it's like I warped into some weird dimension where progressives lost Hillary the election for not believing hard enough in her, and the sycophants insist everyone else with an opinion is just a child.
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Feb 27, 2017 07:10
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Covok posted:I've gotten really good at that. I don't want to poo poo on your enthusiasm or anything so keep it up, just kinda glance over your stuff one more time before hitting post and try to make a read a little less like a pre WW1 anarchist screed  or don't change a thing Covok, that's also acceptable  Dr. Fishopolis posted:I just don't understand what this achieves or why it's important. Like, he keeps yelling RATFUCKED and whether you agree with him or not he yells RATFUCKED over and over. Then the conversation goes somewhere else and he comes back a page later and yells RATFUCKED. HEY GUYS, GUYS, RATFUCKED. HOW DARE YOU. Probably JeffersonClay is a smart person and has a job where the people he works with are all "JeffersonClay is a smart person and does good work" and perhaps even before this election he was reasonable to talk politics with. Then Trump became the President and the poor guy's brain just loving broke. I hope he gets better  Note that I give JeffersonClay this benefit of the doubt, but that doesn't extend to everyone in this thread. I've no doubt Fulchrum is just awful to be around, for example.
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Feb 27, 2017 07:18
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The Kingfish posted:What kills me is how Perez was such a blatant power play for the establishment wing of the party. It's not even that he's a terrible choice for the chair, it's that he had no legitimate reason to run other than to poo poo out the progressive wing. The centrists need to come up with a reason for why their candidate is better. Even if I'm 95% sure that reason is bullshit, it's better to be fed some line than what just happened with Perez. Even the most moderate centrists were forced to admit that the DNC chair was decided by influence peddlers without regard to policy. Yeah that's what is flabbergasting about this thread. Ellison emerged as a consensus candidate with the support of all wings of the party, but the centrists just couldn't stand not getting their way all the time so they ran their own guy and spent a month crying "he's no different than Ellison, he's exactly the same in every way that matters and there's no reason to pick him over Ellison except  WE WANT OUR GUY ".Like I don't hate Perez but if this ushers in another 4 years of pro-business Democrats smugly talking down to everyone like "who cares if your policies are better, we have the power and we don't have to listen to you, we don't need your votes anymore" followed by waking up another November 10th with another electoral failure it's going to suck. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Feb 27, 2017 |
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Feb 27, 2017 08:13
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:there's always some slight that they're gonna threaten to do so and the only answer remains what it's always been: run someone who can credibly speak to the left as an actual candidate for office The ground game at a local level from here until 2020 is going to be a lot more important. The Democrats can’t go in like the Obama administration and lose that many seats again. yellowyams posted:better luck than i've had. the longer dems drag their feet, the more radicalized young people are getting to compensate for what they perceive as an inadequate response to what's going down, and the harder it will be to win them back. that's why this is so loving scary to me, i feel like we just fumbled our biggest chance to prevent that problem before it becomes too steep to handle. Why is that scary? This country needs a leftist shift to compensate for Trump.
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Feb 27, 2017 11:35
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Honestly, I'm more depressed than anything. I'll still vote democrat because it's the "rational" choice, but it's pretty clear that a significant number of people, both within and outside the party, will be turned off by this result. It sends a very clear message that the Dems cannot and will not change. Pretty hard to see how they'll fight Trump.
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Feb 27, 2017 11:36
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Chomskyan posted:Honestly, I'm more depressed than anything. I'll still vote democrat because it's the "rational" choice, but it's pretty clear that a significant number of people, both within and outside the party, will be turned off by this result. It sends a very clear message that the Dems cannot and will not change. Pretty hard to see how they'll fight Trump. I think that "people who fundamentally disagree with us ideologically won't change their minds and roll over and die nice and politely" should be a given honestly. The goal isn't to get centrist Democrats to change, it's to replace them.
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Feb 27, 2017 11:37
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SKULL.GIF posted:That is exactly what's happening. I've had to argue to convince a few youngins (by that I mean people still in their very early 20s) to stick with the party for 2018 at least. Fortunately, they seem to be listening to me, but I don't know about the other few million of them. Didn’t you get the memo? The Democrats are trying to drive people away. e: see Lightning Knight’s posts
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Feb 27, 2017 11:40
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:Didn’t you get the memo? The Democrats are trying to drive people away. Oh go gently caress yourself you snide rear end in a top hat. people who think that minority rights are the reason leftists can't win should be driven away.
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Feb 27, 2017 11:41
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:there's always some slight that they're gonna threaten to do so and the only answer remains what it's always been: run someone who can credibly speak to the left as an actual candidate for office I agree with this. The important thing is the candidates that will be run. I think all of this going in circles about how the DNC screwed over Ellison is just hot air and people licking their wounds. Also, I am not convinced that if the Democratic party dies out, what it will be replaced with will be anymore to the left than what we have now.
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Feb 27, 2017 11:48
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Lightning Knight posted:Oh go gently caress yourself you snide rear end in a top hat. people who think that minority rights are the reason leftists can't win should be driven away. I'll play the world's smallest fiddle at your funeral after you fall on your neoliberal sword You are playing straight into Trump's game of dividing the working class because you can't stand the idea that the people who voted for him didn't do it because of race
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Feb 27, 2017 12:01
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:I'll play the world's smallest fiddle at your funeral after you fall on your neoliberal sword That's cute. You're still swinging at shadows, assuming a convenient strawman because it's simpler that way. Trump's voters really, seriously don't matter. The voters that are not ideologically racist will come for good economic policy if we offer it regardless of whether or not we refuse to back down on racial or gender equality, and your whiny cries about "political correctness" won't mean a drat thing.
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Feb 27, 2017 12:04
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Lightning Knight posted:Oh go gently caress yourself you snide rear end in a top hat. people who think that minority rights are the reason leftists can't win should be driven away. Very few people on the left are suggesting that we abandon minorities. What I have seen though is a growing frustration with the way the left talks about these issues (like dog-piling on potential allies over very minor infractions) as well as the establishment's cynical use social justice as a wedge issue to shut down voices they don't like (usually people advocating economic reforms). Both of which I feel are legitimate criticisms.
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Feb 27, 2017 12:13
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readingatwork posted:Very few people on the left are suggesting that we abandon minorities. What I have seen though is a growing frustration with the way the left talks about these issues (like dog-piling on potential allies over very minor infractions) as well as the establishment's cynical use social justice as a wedge issue to shut down voices they don't like (usually people advocating economic reforms). Both of which I feel are legitimate criticisms. Are you sure? Because after Bernie lost the South, I saw a lot of racist language popping up about the way African Americans voted as if they were automatically ignorant for not voting for Bernie Sanders. Dead Cosmonaut posted:I'll play the world's smallest fiddle at your funeral after you fall on your neoliberal sword What makes you think that he is neoliberal?
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Feb 27, 2017 12:17
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readingatwork posted:Very few people on the left are suggesting that we abandon minorities. What I have seen though is a growing frustration with the way the left talks about these issues (like dog-piling on potential allies over very minor infractions) as well as the establishment's cynical use social justice as a wedge issue to shut down voices they don't like (usually people advocating economic reforms). Both of which I feel are legitimate criticisms. The left is doing that and no some bourgeois liberals with lovely views on regulation out of NYC?
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Feb 27, 2017 12:17
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readingatwork posted:Very few people on the left are suggesting that we abandon minorities. What I have seen though is a growing frustration with the way the left talks about these issues (like dog-piling on potential allies over very minor infractions) as well as the establishment's cynical use social justice as a wedge issue to shut down voices they don't like (usually people advocating economic reforms). Both of which I feel are legitimate criticisms. Dead Cosmonaut posted:Stop wasting so much loving time with this fake ideology intersectionalism bullshit. You don’t have that privilege when you have only 618 days to make the first attempts at seriously undermining Trump and the GOP. I'm just gonna put this out there and say that he's just an rear end in a top hat, imo. I think that conflating how online and personal discussions of minority discrimination issues go and how people react to them and how they're campaigned on by actual politicians is disingenuous, no mainstream Democratic politician is going around trying to shame white people in the style of Tumblr. Social progressivism as a wedge issue has as much to do with minorities preferring known, safe quantities than unknown candidates, and appealing to minorities, especially young people, to jump on board with progressive economic politics and fight the center is a matter of finding better salesmen and women. edit: or to put it another way, POC and women on average didn't go for Bernie, but they may well go for, say, Keith Ellison. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Feb 27, 2017 |
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Feb 27, 2017 12:20
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Lightning Knight posted:edit: or to put it another way, POC and women on average didn't go for Bernie, but they may well go for, say, Keith Ellison. I think minorities will go for anyone that doesn't seem like they will throw them under the bus at the first sign of trouble. Minorities need politicians that don't see them as an afterthought.
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Feb 27, 2017 12:26
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Chomskyan posted:Honestly, I'm more depressed than anything. I'll still vote democrat because it's the "rational" choice, but it's pretty clear that a significant number of people, both within and outside the party, will be turned off by this result. It sends a very clear message that the Dems cannot and will not change. Pretty hard to see how they'll fight Trump. lol dems fight trump? They're just gonna yell about how he's incompetent and a Russia stooge for years, hope politics course corrects to "normalcy" & an anti-trump wave ushers them back into employment.
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Feb 27, 2017 12:28
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blackguy32 posted:What makes you think that he is neoliberal? People who support Clinton used identity politics to defend their right wing views- not their left wing ones. They have it in there heads that there are some 45 million racist poor people in this country who voted for Trump to kick out Mexicans and beat up blacks. Meanwhile Hillary was ineffectively trying to court middle class Reagan Era Republicans with her foreign policy even though they had much more of a damning record (hint: people who were part of the Tea Party weren’t poor). Even Huey Long did a better job than she did at it. There was never any disunity in the left. There are just right wing Democrats masquerading their ideology behind social justice. What I suggest Lightning Knight do now is actually bother reading up on how liberal parties in Sweden had to deal with SD before going off on how well equipped he is to deal with the elections in 2020. Dead Cosmonaut fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Feb 27, 2017 |
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Feb 27, 2017 12:46
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:People who support Clinton used identity politics to defend their right wing views- not their left wing ones. They have it in there heads that there are some 45 million racist poor people in this country who voted for Trump to kick out Mexicans and beat up blacks. Meanwhile Hillary was ineffectively trying to court middle class Reagan Era Republicans with her foreign policy even though they had much more of a damning record (hint: people who were part of the Tea Party weren’t poor). Even Huey Long did a better job than she did at it. I am seeing a lot of assertions with very little evidence. And no evidence to prove that Lightning Knight is a neoliberal.
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Feb 27, 2017 12:51
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:People who support Clinton used identity politics to defend their right wing views- not their left wing ones. They have it in there heads that there are some 45 million racist poor people in this country who voted for Trump to kick out Mexicans and beat up blacks. Meanwhile Hillary was ineffectively trying to court middle class Reagan Era Republicans with her foreign policy even though they had much more of a damning record (hint: people who were part of the Tea Party weren’t poor). Even Huey Long did a better job than she did at it. Black people. Not blacks, black people. Trump actually got 62 million votes, and his voters voted for him for a variety of reasons, but they either accepted or ignored a narrative of the generalized Other being responsible for the decline of the United States and the failures of capitalism, rather than exploitation by the American business class. Some of those voters could be won back by a more coherent and better articulated economic policy, but trying to specifically target Trump voters when there are literally six million odd people who voted for Obama and stayed home we could target more effectively instead is asinine. Decrying Hillary going after suburban Republican voters, rightfully so, and then questioning why we shouldn't go after Trump voters is hilarious, because the vast majority of people who voted Trump were already Republicans. Those that weren't are going to come back for economic policy, not because we jettisoned minority rights as a part of the platform. The idea that there is never disunity on the left is hilarious and foolish in the face of history. No political movement in the history of the human race has ever been perfectly in unity, let alone something as broad and far-spanning as "the left."
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Feb 27, 2017 12:55
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blackguy32 posted:I am seeing a lot of assertions with very little evidence. And no evidence to prove that Lightning Knight is a neoliberal. I’m not doing his word versus his word. You can read through his previous posts to find remarks being inherently classist. It’s not something where any progress is going to be made. Lightning Knight is just going to have to lose a few elections to admit he’s wrong. The fact of the matter is that the only two entities who stand to gain from dividing the Democrats are the neoliberals who want to retain control of the party and Donald Trump.
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Feb 27, 2017 12:58
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:I’m not doing his word versus his word. You can read through his previous posts to find remarks being inherently classist. You think he is inherently classist because he doesn't support economic policy at the detriment of identity politics. I got it.
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Feb 27, 2017 13:07
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm just gonna put this out there and say that he's just an rear end in a top hat, imo. Before proceeding further, maybe you should take some time to consider why both Hillary and Obama failed to pin Donald Trump as an enemy of the working class, which he clearly is. Political correctness protects the views of upper class white people just as much as it protects minorities from derogatory, demeaning remarks. I hope you have the imagination to do that.
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Feb 27, 2017 13:08
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:Before proceeding further, maybe you should take some time to consider why both Hillary and Obama failed to pin Donald Trump as an enemy of the working class, which he clearly is. Political correctness protects the views of upper class white people just as much as it protects minorities from derogatory, demeaning remarks. I hope you have the imagination to do that. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/3/obama-says-donald-trump-no-friend-working-class/ 
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Feb 27, 2017 13:11
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blackguy32 posted:You think he is inherently classist because he doesn't support economic policy at the detriment of identity politics. I got it. I mean, I don't think that identity politics and economic leftism are at odds to begin with, and implying that they are is disingenuous from either end. There is no world where progressives fail to defend the wider working class and poor or disaffected minorities and comes out the better movement. Dead Cosmonaut posted:Before proceeding further, maybe you should take some time to consider why both Hillary and Obama failed to pin Donald Trump as an enemy of the working class, which he clearly is. Political correctness protects the views of upper class white people just as much as it protects minorities from derogatory, demeaning remarks. I hope you have the imagination to do that. I don't think there's any world where Hillary Clinton could've convinced the wider populace that anybody is "an enemy of the working class," and that's a problem that is fixed by running somebody perceived as more credible on progressive issues than Hillary Clinton. Tying the propaganda power of the business class together with initiatives to shame or push back against discrimination against minorities is rather strange to me, and your continued use of right-wing buzzwords to do so is amusing given your other arguments. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Feb 27, 2017 |
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Feb 27, 2017 13:12
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As an avowed Democratic Socialist, I'll say to every idiot claiming my banner this. Stop calling it idpol, and just call it what it is, Civil Rights, if you can't get over yourself then, then gently caress off. There are Civil rights that these groups are absolutely 100% proper getting right hosed out of in this country. We called them identity names to highlight the stark difference in treatment they receive at every level compared to the considered "default", White Men. But we let the right take these names and run with them right into the ground proclaiming us as seeking "special rights" for minority groups, because surprise we're kinda poo poo at messaging a lot of the time. The idea of fixing our nation's past infractions (yes white person, you yourself *are* not personally responsible, the society and government you inhabit is, as it has been around and in direct power through all of it. HOWEVER, you receive automatic privileges due to how this society structures itself, exactly similar to the way it does for the rich, and yes, multiple studies have shown the racial factor has much harsher penalties on treatment and position in society.) in the pursuit of an egalitarian society is completely what we should work toward tirelessly. All you wannabe pretenders can just get hosed.
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Feb 27, 2017 13:20
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icantfindaname posted:https://twitter.com/freddoso/status/835590478988877824 lmao this is THE WORST possible way to frame this even if he somehow means (he doesn't) that it will happen as a result of more active and engaged democratic base
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Feb 27, 2017 13:27
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nachos posted:lmao this is THE WORST possible way to frame this even if he somehow means (he doesn't) that it will happen as a result of more active and engaged democratic base The American electorate would not respond well to this.
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Feb 27, 2017 13:36
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blackguy32 posted:You think he is inherently classist because he doesn't support economic policy at the detriment of identity politics. I got it. You don’t need to look hard to find somewhere he had an axe to grind with poor working whites. Lightning Knight posted:I mean, I don't think that identity politics and economic leftism are at odds to begin with, and implying that they are is disingenuous from either end. There is no world where progressives fail to defend the wider working class and poor or disaffected minorities and comes out the better movement. You can’t criticize the wealthy elite when you are part of it, nor can you distinguish political correctness from its right wing tendencies. Obama exacerbated this crisis of conscious by failing to prosecute Wall St. bankers during his first term. The kind of safe spaces colleges bring foster the same kind of ignorance that is used by racists to reinforce their world views. Instead of engaging in greater forum, we have become increasingly isolated communities whose sole purpose is to entertain niche socioeconomic views that otherwise serve no basis on reality. Bannon is specially counting on this happening because people will just take their word for it instead of seeking some kind of greater truth. By the way, if you’re wondering if European left wing parties had success with the tactics you are suggesting, they didn’t. As much as you champion your progressive views, they really aren’t all that original nor unique in juxtaposition with the political situation in Europe.
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Feb 27, 2017 13:36
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:You can’t criticize the wealthy elite when you are part of it, nor can you distinguish political correctness from its right wing tendencies. Obama exacerbated this crisis of conscious by failing to prosecute Wall St. bankers during his first term. Are you trying to say I'm part of the wealthy elite? Because lol. Ah yes, another classic right-wing talking point, the evils of college safe spaces. Which both don't actually work like you're implying, and aren't equivalent to racists and their alternative facts. I'm not really sure what you mean by "isolated communities," unless you're making a "the cities are disconnected from Real America" bullshit argument. News flash: the vast majority of Americans live in cities. Your insistence that it's very important that we engage with Trump voters and win them over while simultaneously making GBS threads on Hillary for going after suburban Republicans is utterly hilarious because those suburban Republicans overwhelmingly voted Trump. Again, there are millions of perfectly normal people who voted for Obama and didn't show up at all in 2016 we could cater to without changing a single thing about our support for minority rights, and yet like clockwork here you are claiming that political correctness is the enemy and that college safe spaces and intersectionality are why leftists lose. Gee, I wonder who else uses these kinds of talking points? Edit: and for the record, since you seem to be under the impression I want more "basket of deplorables" speeches, I don't think we have to spend any time shaming Trump voters because Trump voters literally do not matter to Democratic electoral prospects. Those that can be convinced without being racist will come when we offer a strong economic vision, and those that can't will keep on voting Republican as they always have.
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Feb 27, 2017 13:48
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I see we're at the part of the Bernie or Bust cycle where they start having Khmer Rouge fantasies of destroying universities and sending urban residents to the killing fields.
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Feb 27, 2017 13:50
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