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jonathan posted:You can do 1000 watts per channel RMS with an inuke 3000 amp for $225. No need to ever buy a t-amp. I like t-amps for small bookshelves, they're pretty good at moderate volume. I'm using 2 in my house, one for a turntable and one for a bedroom TV. Sometimes a $40 t-amp is very much good enough.
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Feb 27, 2017 17:42
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Considering that most people rarely use more than 10W per channel, 1000W is just slightly overkill 
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Feb 27, 2017 18:18
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What about DYNAMIC RANGE?! 
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Feb 27, 2017 19:50
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Wibla posted:What about DYNAMIC RANGE?! I hate this whataboutism trend
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Feb 27, 2017 20:59
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Wibla posted:What about DYNAMIC RANGE?! HEADROOM!
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Feb 27, 2017 21:11
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KozmoNaut posted:I hate this whataboutism trend Yeah, it was just too easy... GnarlyCharlie4u posted:HEADROOM! Well gently caress, that was what I was getting at. I'm bad. Back to the topic at hand: At normal listening levels, you'll rarely exceed a few watts of power, and the average power will often be <1W. But in properly mastered recordings (i.e. poo poo that isn't overly affected by the loudness war), you'll have portions of the track that will demand a lot more power "on tap". That's why good amps generally have well thought-out powersupplies with decent capacitor banks and transformers that can keep up with demand. You very rarely blow speakers by feeding them too much power, but it's exceedingly easy to do with an undersized amplifier if you don't pay some attention to what you're doing. As the amplifier peaks, it sends out square waves (DC of alternating polarity) that will fry tweeters in a hurry. A classic example is the old Cerwin Vega AL1000 paired with a single NAD 216 or 218, where they really need bridged 218's or 208's to survive being cranked to 11. I have a Trends TA 10.1 t-amp that I've paired up with a couple of Tannoy MX1 bookshelf speakers. The combo sounds pretty good, but you notice when it runs out of steam fairly quickly. Some of this is due to the Tannoys being relatively low sensitivity (87 dB/1W/1m IIRC).
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Feb 27, 2017 21:11
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The inukes are great for subs but I wouldn't use them for full range listening for anything other than outdoor environments where spl is the goal.
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Feb 27, 2017 21:15
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I'm now picturing somebody in a small office with 1000W power amps hooked up to each of his desktop bookshelves.
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Feb 27, 2017 21:22
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Twerk from Home posted:I'm now picturing somebody in a small office with 1000W power amps hooked up to each of his desktop bookshelves. The real life version of the old JBL ad. Hair and scarf being blown about.
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Feb 27, 2017 21:28
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I think the only place in here I've seen the iNuke mentioned was in conjunction with a 15" sub. I don't think the purpose is to power bookshelf speakers.
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Feb 27, 2017 22:18
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Wibla posted:At normal listening levels, you'll rarely exceed a few watts of power, and the average power will often be <1W. But in properly mastered recordings (i.e. poo poo that isn't overly affected by the loudness war), you'll have portions of the track that will demand a lot more power "on tap". That's why good amps generally have well thought-out powersupplies with decent capacitor banks and transformers that can keep up with demand. The most dynamic recording I have is the Telarc release of the 1812 Overture. According to the Dynamic Range database, it has a maximum of 18dB of dynamic range. I think that sounds rather low, so let's be generous and say 24dB instead. It is a very dynamic recording, after all. In this situation, you're playing back at a volume level where the quiet parts need 0.1W of power. At normal listening distance, that's about 75dB with an ordinary set of speakers (88dB/1W@1M), which most people would consider appropriate. To achieve the additional 24dB to hit the peaks, your amplifier has to supply 24W, which gives you peaks of 99dB. I'm sure you'll agree is quite loud indeed. And that's for momentary peaks, not sustained. People use significantly less power from their amplifiers than they think  quote:You very rarely blow speakers by feeding them too much power, but it's exceedingly easy to do with an undersized amplifier if you don't pay some attention to what you're doing. As the amplifier peaks, it sends out square waves (DC of alternating polarity) that will fry tweeters in a hurry. A classic example is the old Cerwin Vega AL1000 paired with a single NAD 216 or 218, where they really need bridged 218's or 208's to survive being cranked to 11. No, this is wrong. Clipping and square waves do not produce DC. They produce harmonic overtones to the base frequency, in other words clipping generates high-frequency content. And square waves do not kill speakers, otherwise distorted guitars and synthesizers would be killing speakers left and right. What actually happens is that a square wave has ~1.4x the RMS voltage and ~2x the power of a sine wave with the same amplitude. You're putting more than the amplifier's rated power to the speakers, and if the speakers are undersized, they'll fry. Especially if the tweeters are under-specced, as the clipping creates high-frequency harmonics. But in the end, what kills the speaker is too much power, not the mere fact that the amp is clipping. For instance, it is completely impossible to kill a genuinely 100W rated speaker using a 10W-rated amp through clipping, no matter how much you abuse it. Utterly impossible. quote:I have a Trends TA 10.1 t-amp that I've paired up with a couple of Tannoy MX1 bookshelf speakers. The combo sounds pretty good, but you notice when it runs out of steam fairly quickly. Some of this is due to the Tannoys being relatively low sensitivity (87 dB/1W/1m IIRC). Well yeah, it's only rated for 2x10W at 8Ω, and that's with 10% THD, which is absolutely horrendous. Realistically, you can get maybe 2x6W of clean power out of it.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:22
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KozmoNaut posted:Well yeah, it's only rated for 2x10W at 8Ω, and that's with 10% THD, which is absolutely horrendous. Realistically, you can get maybe 2x6W of clean power out of it. Not all t-amps suck, my tiny $30 Lepai is rated at 2x20W at <.05% THD. Edit: I googled and that's a fake rating, real tests show it much more like 2x10W at .5% THD. China strikes again!
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Feb 27, 2017 23:30
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Twerk from Home posted:Not all t-amps suck, my tiny $30 Lepai is rated at 2x20W at <.05% THD. Yeah, you should see the 2x180W amp my dad bought from DX for a laugh. It's powered by a 12V wall wart, so even given a 100% efficient amplifier, that would mean putting 30A down a wire that's 24AWG at the most. Of course, when we opened it up, it had two Philips 5W amp chips inside. So he complained and got his $5 back  Other than having ridiculously over-exaggerated specs and cheap-rear end parts, it wasn't actually a bad design. And it was $5.
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Feb 27, 2017 23:53
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I miss the Denon DM-3 and DM-30. 20Wx2 but it had Mission speakers and was damned amazing for a shelf system. Re: amp chat I have a Crown XLS 1002 powering my computer speakers. If I'm really caning it I will tickle the -20 dB lights and that's about it. Maybe I'll make a sub amp out of it one of these days.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:17
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Panty Saluter posted:I miss the Denon DM-3 and DM-30. 20Wx2 but it had Mission speakers and was damned amazing for a shelf system. I think that one came with Mission MS-50s. I had a set of them back in the day and they were very nice for the price. They got me hooked on Mission and I eventually moved to an all Mission 77 series 5.1 setup. Loved those speakers.
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Feb 28, 2017 04:56
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Not sure if this is precisely the right place but  the Acurus DIA 100 is the best goddamn integrated I have ever heard for under $1000 (used).It's easily on par with a Krell 300i.  It's only 100w (at 8ohms) but even when pushed to it's limit it delivers every ounce of power effortlessly. I tried it with several different speakers and cable combinations and even with some stupid short 10AWG speaker wires there was no high freq rolloff. I first tested it with some 22AWG twisted solid core phone cable and it was a bit warmer but still very acceptable at reasonable listening volume. It can even manage to push my vandersteen 2ce signatures with no trouble. Transparent is probably the best single word I can use to describe the amp. I set the crossovers to 0 and kept it there and seriously enjoyed it. If you all want I can really put it through it's paces with my SL-1200 MKII, Reel-to-Reel, Rotel CD player (or Playstation) and phone and report back, but my initial impressions are surprisingly loving good for what I initially assumed was going to be a cheap amp for my garage stereo.
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Feb 28, 2017 05:07
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^Wow that thing is awesome, does it have a dac built-in or just an input for one? Also those are sweet speakers. I just bought a Peachtree nova125se, trip report coming soon.
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Feb 28, 2017 05:14
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GnarlyCharlie4u posted:Not sure if this is precisely the right place but I would put my $40 Yamaha RX-495RDS up against it, any day of the week. And certainly with better speakers than Vandersteens, they're not exactly well designed. Yes, I am a killjoy. Enjoy your amp, it looks very purposeful and no-nonsense
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Feb 28, 2017 07:23
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KozmoNaut posted:
Good points. I'm rusty on analog electronics However, the point about harmonic frequencies, doesn't this push more power into the high-frequency domain? and what is the power handling of, say, a soft dome tweeter vs a 15" woofer? Going back to my example about the AL1000's, what usually happened was that either the fuse for the tweeter blew, or the tweeter itself blew, as it couldn't handle the power being put through them.
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Feb 28, 2017 10:04
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Wibla posted:Good points. I'm rusty on analog electronics Yes, the harmonics go up in frequency, but they also fall off in power (Exponentially? Logarithmically? Can't remember). Still, if you start off with a 10kHz sine and clip that, you will get a lot of high-frequency content, no matter what. However, you can't generate more power than the amp's maximum output at 100% THD. So if it's a 10WPC amp, it will generate around ~20WWPC in full clipping AFAIK (if the power supply can keep up). Most modern soft dome tweeters I've seen can handle from around 50W to over 100W, and some can handle even more. So yes, if you send a 15kHz fully-clipped sine wave from a 80WPC amp to a speaker rated for 100W, you will fry it. But that's because you're actually hitting it the speakers with ~160W Too much power kills speakers. That power can be clean or clipped, doesn't really matter. A much more serious issue is old speakers with badly designed or out-of-spec crossovers, which can send low-frequency signals to the tweeters. And that will definitely kill tweeter right quick.
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Feb 28, 2017 11:21
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KozmoNaut posted:Too much power kills speakers. That power can be clean or clipped, doesn't really matter. Yup. This is the truth. When I built my Bill Fitzmaurice PA speakers the plans actually tell you the exact voltage you can give the speakers before they'll die. Each of my subs loaded with an Eminence Lab 12 can take 50v of power in the cabinet (horn loaded) before you'll fry the voice coil and let the blue smoke out. I've had them limited at 50v since I put the things together and they've ran at high volume for 8 hours straight for many nights in clubs without issue. DJs have sent distorted signals through the chain, peaked this, overdriven that but the limiter still won't let them have more than 50v so they've been fine. I assume 50v is being conservative here as he knows people will want to wring every last bit of SPL out of them. From the plans from the guru himself: quote:Don't assume that just because your amp isn't rated for more power than your drivers that you can't blow them. Transient pulses of less than a millisecond can toast a driver just as easily as long term overpowering. An amp with a nominal 300 watt rating can provide short duration power bursts at least 6dB higher, and that takes you up to 1200 watts. A well made amp can have 10dB of dynamic headroom over and above the nominal rating, and in the case of a 300 watt amp that gets you up to 3000 watts.
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Feb 28, 2017 12:12
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KozmoNaut posted:And certainly with better speakers than Vandersteens, they're not exactly well designed. you take that back right this instant
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Feb 28, 2017 16:37
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Panty Saluter posted:you take that back right this instant No, they're poo poo. Just as a really basic first point, first-order crossovers have absolutely no place in speakers anymore. And that's before you get into the bi-wiring woo-woo audiophile bullshit Richard likes to spread.
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Feb 28, 2017 16:54
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OK, I'll bite...what's wrong with first order crossovers? ...and bi-wiring might be woo-woo but it doesn't affect the speaker design.
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Feb 28, 2017 16:57
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This guy explains it well: https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/55g6qb/help_me_understand_the_vandersteen_line/d8ae116/ https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/429h56/what_is_raudiophiles_opinion_on_vandersteens/cz8qctm/ TL;DR: First order crossovers to achieve time alignment involves serious compromises in overall sound quality, especially due to expecting the speaker drivers to cover way too large frequency ranges. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 17:08
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KozmoNaut posted:This guy explains it well: http://hometheaterreview.com/first-order-crossovers-panacea-or-problem/ This piece also acknowledges the limitations but it basically comes down to what you're designing for. If it's not what you're looking for...well, it's not what you're looking for but that doesn't make it "bad". That's like criticizing a muscle car for not being quiet and practical.
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Feb 28, 2017 17:13
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Nah, it's criticizing speaker designs for being poo poo, when so much better solutions to the same problems have existed for decades. E: And that article also touches on the biggest drawback, namely dispersion. It makes the vertical sweet spot absolutely tiny, which is why it's so important to adjust the rake of Vandersteen speakers very precisely. But it's absolutely poo poo in any sort of real world setting, where you're not sitting completely still in the exact same position. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 17:26
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KozmoNaut posted:I would put my $40 Yamaha RX-495RDS up against it, any day of the week. I will say the Vandersteens laziness is very apparent when hooked up to this amp. Death metal need not apply. However, Tony Sly's 12 Song Program really hits the spot. Do you have any recommendations for towers? I've been eyeing a pair of Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (with the RAAL ribbon tweeter) for a while, but I don't really want to buy them blindly, and I'm curious what else I should be looking at.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:01
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Anyone got opinions on/experiences with dual concentric speakers?
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Feb 28, 2017 18:12
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GnarlyCharlie4u posted:I will say the Vandersteens laziness is very apparent when hooked up to this amp. Death metal need not apply. See, that's sort of my issue with speakers like the Vandersteens. I want to listen to all kinds of music, not just "lazy" audiophile-type music, slow jazz and stuff. I have to admit that I am heavily biased towards active monitors. I know some monitor manufacturers also make consumer speakers, among them Adam, ATC and Dynaudio. Personally, I've never been disappointed by Dali. I have a sort of lukewarm impression of Audiovector. Jamo is OK for the price. JBL can be either great or lovely, it's really hit-or-miss with them. Just off the top of my head, those are the brands I've owned myself for significant periods of time. Personally, I would prefer something with an AMT/X-ART tweeter, although I have speakers with dome speakers too, and I like them as well. Rule #1 with speakers: Listen before you buy. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 18:13
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KozmoNaut posted:Rule #1 with speakers: Listen before you buy. Go to a best buy with a magnolia in it. Also look at aperion - they do the in home demo thing.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:25
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KozmoNaut posted:See, that's sort of my issue with speakers like the Vandersteens. I want to listen to all kinds of music, not just "lazy" audiophile-type music, slow jazz and stuff. Oh man, I kind of want to let you borrow my B&O Beovox s80.2 They're really weird. Sweet spot; they're fun. Slightly out of the sweet spot; irksome. Across the room; fun again. Initially you think they're scooped, but then you realize there's just huge random peaks and valleys in their response across the spectrum. The dome mids are the greatest thing about them. As for audiophile music, that's kinda the only thing I intended on using the Vandersteens for when I bought them. That and (no joke) podcast listening. They're REALLY good at voices. I'd never spend the money on a new pair, but I snagged a pair of 2ci for $400 and later my 2ce signature for $500. For that kind of money they're totally worth it. Wibla posted:Anyone got opinions on/experiences with dual concentric speakers? KillHour posted:Go to a best buy with a magnolia in it. Also look at aperion - they do the in home demo thing. I didn't know Aperion did the same. I'll check them out too.
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Feb 28, 2017 18:46
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KozmoNaut posted:Nah, it's criticizing speaker designs for being poo poo, when so much better solutions to the same problems have existed for decades. They have a narrow sweet spot but it's hardly unusable. Better than planars at least
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Feb 28, 2017 20:03
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Panty Saluter posted:They have a narrow sweet spot but it's hardly unusable. Better than planars at least Talk about damning with faint praise
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Feb 28, 2017 20:38
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KozmoNaut posted:Talk about damning with faint praise Ha, maybe so. I love my little Monsoon PC speakers but even at a desk they're unforgiving. I'm now using some Definitive bookshelf speakers running off a Crown amp fed from an Mbox2. The midrange can be a bit much but it is a lot more forgiving of where I sit, even though they are not nearfield monitors.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:42
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Panty Saluter posted:nearfield monitors. speaking of... Check out my current TV watching situation: (sorry, AWS is hosed at the moment so I'm just linking directly to the images on google photos) https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/d...Q=w766-h1021-no https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/f...=w1362-h1021-no  it sounds terrible
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Feb 28, 2017 22:07
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GnarlyCharlie4u posted:speaking of... I'm more concerned with the Stone Age Motorola cable box 
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Feb 28, 2017 23:11
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Panty Saluter posted:I'm more concerned with the Stone Age Motorola cable box Verizon. and yeah me too. Don't get me started. Despite my many suggestions, the wife hasn't returned or exchanged it, and we're still paying to rent it every month. Just as much as a new one.  I don't watch cable so IDGAF
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Mar 1, 2017 00:17
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Olothreutes posted:I think the only place in here I've seen the iNuke mentioned was in conjunction with a 15" sub. I don't think the purpose is to power bookshelf speakers. I use one to power twin 18's and twin high excursion 12's. 2ohm load per channel. I've run my fairly sensitive klipsch rf3's off it and didn't notice any different in clarity or issues with decay or distortion over my onkyo 818 receiver which is a workhorse receiver. Basically my point is, BUDGET PRO AUDIO EVERYTHING TILL THE CAT PUKES AND YOU BREAK THE HOUSE PLUMBING. (true story would do again for the insurance claim).
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Mar 1, 2017 19:10
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jonathan posted:Basically my point is, BUDGET PRO AUDIO EVERYTHING TILL THE CAT PUKES AND YOU BREAK THE HOUSE PLUMBING. (true story would do again for the insurance claim). 
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Mar 1, 2017 22:13
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