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BurningStone posted:The obvious twist is to swap the fates of the babies: the legitimate child, Battler, died and our Battler is the illegitimate one. Just exchange the newborns' identities. That's why Beatrice attacks him through his mother, even though his tie into the family, and this whole mess, is through his father. Too bad Battler isn't bright enough to explore this. He's also not bright enough to realize that if he can attempt to speak red, even about things he doesn't know, he should be able to wrap everything up in ten minutes. Not that Battler is incompetent isn't still true, but he's generally seemed fairly bright - just completely out of his depth. To explore the possibility people have been talking about, I can think of very few people who wouldn't suddenly panic and mentally shut down if they suddenly could not use true speak (red text here, but the concept exists elsewhere) to say the name of the person they thought was their mother for the last 18 years, regardless of if there are ways to reason yourself around it. So saying he's not bright enough to explore the other possibilities of gaining access to red text at this particular moment is extremely unfair. Also, taking the "Asumu/Kyrie's children were swapped at birth" theory into account, why would it matter whose child Battler was in regards to changing his legitimacy status? Rudolf wasn't married to either of them at the time, so it's not a matter of being born out of wedlock or not - both children (the live and stillbirth) were born outside it. And Beatrice never stated in red that he wasn't legitimate, she just claimed that after he started panicking.
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Mar 5, 2017 07:05
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Not to sound rude, but I feel like some of you folks are forgetting that the reason Beatrice is done with the game is because Battler is not the same person from 6 years ago that committed the "sin". Or at least that is what has been implied by the test she gave him, since it sounds like the test was to see if he is the only person who remembers the "sin" which would be the real Battler. Is that implying that he is already qualified to be successor aside from this? Because Beatrice has been all hot and bothered by him being like a young Kinzo for awhile and never seems to have skipped a more formal test. Anyway, I just hope that it has more to do with him being someone other than the real Battler or even him being forgetful as a character flaw is better to me. Please don't let it be a baby swap, that would be so dumb.
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Mar 5, 2017 07:39
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Fabulousvillain posted:Not to sound rude, but I feel like some of you folks are forgetting that the reason Beatrice is done with the game is because Battler is not the same person from 6 years ago that committed the "sin". Or at least that is what has been implied by the test she gave him, since it sounds like the test was to see if he is the only person who remembers the "sin" which would be the real Battler. Is that implying that he is already qualified to be successor aside from this? Because Beatrice has been all hot and bothered by him being like a young Kinzo for awhile and never seems to have skipped a more formal test. Even Beatrice never says that's true: ProfessorProf posted:
Six years ago Battler was already dead and had been replaced with "Battler", if we can trust what Beatrice says here (we probably can't).
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Mar 5, 2017 11:39
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"No, the true Ushiromiya Battler would not have committed a sin. But a sin did occur in the end, that span of six years became a blank space, and a man who knew nothing of that time took on the name Ushiromiya Battler and appeared on Rokkenjima. That truth... goes like this."
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 BGM: Monochrome Clock   "Whoops, my bad. You don't like M. Zakky?" "I'm just not in the mood."Amakusa turned the radio off. The world of cheery sounds was immediately swallowed up by the roar of the sea...and blotted out by the ocean's gray...  BGM: Sukashiyuri  "..."The boat captain pointed, but I couldn't really recall that scene of 12 years ago. I thought I'd surely be able to immediately remember how things had been at the time, but no memories came back to me. After that incident, the island was sealed off and left to the wild. I couldn't satisfy myself with the thought that this was just inevitable, and it felt sad and painful for some reason. ...Ah, but I at least remember one thing. You might say that it'd probably be the same anywhere on the sea, but I remember at least one thing.  ...When I was young, I rarely went to the ocean. So everything that symbolized the ocean meant Rokkenjima and a family gathering to me. In short, it was a symbol for the happiness of going out with my family. However, at this point in time, it seems doubtful whether that even was happiness. In my younger days, the trip had felt like a relaxed family vacation, but considering my parents' situation at the time, it was surely a very difficult trip to handle, with the distribution of the inheritance filling the place with the smell of gunpowder. I can remember giggling all over the place, completely ignorant of my parents' feelings...  Amakusa, in an attempt to speak for my innermost feelings, tried to sound cool. The boat slowly rounded the island. I hoped that viewing it at a different angle might bring back my memories of the island's silhouette at the time just a little, but in the end, even when that inlet was hidden completely by cliffs, I wasn't able to remember anything... "...Captain, please tell me... about that other harbor you mentioned." "Sure. Rokkenjima supposedly has only one harbor. But that's only for public appearances." "On the back of the island, there's another hidden harbor. Like Rokkenjima itself. It has a second face, which no one knows about..." "...Rokkenjima is an island owned by the Ushiromiya family. But it has another face, as an island owned by Kinzo-san personally..." "So this island... has two harbors and two mansions. He sure spent a lot just to keep a mistress." "Who knew about this other harbor...?" "Very few. Kinzo-san, the butler Genji-san. Those of us involved with the boats, and a very small number of the oldest servants. Both the previous owner of the Nanjo clinic and that Kumasawa baa-san knew." "Naming them off like this makes it sound like there were quite a few, but basically, there was a small number of people who knew." "Please... tell me about that other mansion." "...I was only told that there was a mansion called Kuwadorian. Since I wasn't allowed to leave the boat, I never saw it, not even once." "So it was far enough away that you couldn't see it from the harbor?" "I don't know. But it was a hidden mansion, after all. It was probably built where you couldn't see it from the outside. Anyway, Kuwadorian was the biggest secret of that island." "There's a theory that Beatrice lived in Kuwadorian, or else was confined there. What do you think, Captain?" "...I did sometimes carry miscellaneous goods to Kuwadorian. And that included a lot of stuff that only women would use, and expensive stuff at that. I'm also convinced that theory is true." "So does that mean you never saw Beatrice directly, Captain?" "Nope. Came and went for about 20 years, and I never saw her once." "Twenty years...! Whew, that means she was at least 20+. Look's like she wasn't some mademoiselle." "Bang? You mean suddenly?" "...We came to the Hidden Side on a set schedule to carry food and trash back and forth. Ah, right, the Hidden Side's what we called the harbor linked to Kuwadorian." "I get it. So then?" "One day, we got an urgent message from Genji-san. He said that until we heard differently, there was no need for us to go to the Hidden Side anymore." "And did you hear differently?" "Not really. Long story short, one day, I was suddenly told that they wouldn't need regular service to the Hidden Side anymore... and that I didn't have to take food there either. At first, I thought I was being fired. But I quickly figured it out. Going by the reactions of the servants who knew of Kuwadorian, I managed to guess somehow." "That's what I think. From that point on, I was never told to take a boat to the Hidden Side. However, after that, Genji-san came to see me face to face and got pushy, strongly urging me never to speak of anything related to the Hidden Side until I died." "So, if that hidden mansion was abandoned for 20 whole years... why was Aunt Eva there?" Why was she in a hidden mansion that had been forgotten for 20 years...? "I saw on the talk shows. Even I don't have a clue what happened. Not once did I guide Eva-san to the Hidden Side. I have no idea how or why she knew about or reached Kuwadorian." "I wonder if it was possible to reach this Hidden Kuwadorian by land." "...If, as we heard, the forest was dense and uncultivated, I seriously doubt a well-dressed lady person'd be able to bush-crash it." "So what about by sea? Maybe there was a motorboat or something." "Are you kidding? That two-nighter typhoon was awful. No way you could'a used a boat." "You mean a tunnel long enough to connect mansions on opposite sides of a 2 kilometer island like Rokkenjima...? Well, I'd like to laugh at the thought, but this rich guy made a whole hidden mansion for his mistress. Guess I can't deny the possibility. What do you think, Captain?" "I'm a man of the sea. I don't know about holes. But the Japanese military dug a 25 kilometer tunnel on Iwo Jima. Wouldn't surprise me if the Kinzo-san could dig at least 2 kilometers." "...There really is something wrong with this island. Even now, not one of us really knows a thing about it." BGM: Hope "...I'll wait here. The mansion's that way. The path from back then's probably still there, but I'll bet it's covered with plants. Make sure you don't get lost." "Right, let's go." "Thanks for everything, Amakusa. You wait here too." "...Well, I had a feeling you'd say that." "I'm just delivering something. It'll be troublesome for them if you come too. I imagine your toxin is strong." "Toxin? Oho." "I'll be back soon. Today, our main goal is Kuwadorian. After I deliver this, I'll come right back."Ange put on her knapsack, holding the flowers she would offer. "Give her some space, young'un." "...See you soon, little lady. Your family's waiting for you." It was true that the vegetation was incredibly thick, and if I didn't pay attention, I would lose track of the path. But the road that was left was much clearer than I'd guessed it would be. Still, that didn't change the fact that it was a bad road. Contrary to the distance shown on the map, I was forced to walk a long way...  At the time, I had been threatened into staying away from the forest because a witch lived there. Of course, that fear is gone now, but... I feel it. Because I was me, I could feel the presence, like an aura, of the Golden Witch, Beatrice... Here and there were massive fallen lumps of rock along with overgrown trees and ivy. And the voices of birds and bugs. Yeah, I feel it. I feel... that the witch... is here... Ahead, an ivy-covered construction site fence and warning sign stood.  Yeah, that's right. When you think 'Tokyo', you tend to think of a city, but Rokkenjima is also located within the Tokyo Metropolis. Apologizing to the sign for my rude mistake, I climbed the fence. When I crossed the steep slope beyond that, my field of vision rapidly expanded, and a fresh sea breeze blew through my hair... It was like the top of a little hill. Below me was a vast view of the island. I could only see desolated forest and rock walls spread out below me. But I realized that the mansion was probably somewhere around there. The steep downward slope beyond this hill had probably been caused by earth and rocks collapsing from 12 years of wind and rain. It had become a slant filled with crags that you might even call gentle cliffs, and it would be easy to tumble down, though it looked like climbing back would be pretty difficult. In any event, it seemed that proceeding any further would be impossible.  This place is 1986 and 1998. And, it is that day and today. The boundary between this world and nirvana. "...This spot is... this journey's final destination, it seems."As the strong winds blew Mammon's and Sakutaro's hair, they looked down from the hilltop...   'Uryu, that's impossible. We won't be able to come back.'...We won't be able... to come back. Is that it? I see. This is 1998, and I am the Ushiromiya Ange who has been left all alone. At first, this was a journey to die. But not anymore. It's become a journey to accomplish something... "Yeah. So, I'm sorry, you two. Although, as I was back then on that day, I would've gone down that cliff without any hesitation." "Come on, this is pretty lame for the skyscraper-jumping Ushiromiya Ange." "Sorry." 'This place is as good as any. After all, you can feel the wind of that day.' "...Was the wind... really like this?" 'Yeah. Very soon, they will come. Everyone.'Sakutaro said it as though it was completely natural. And... I believed it. Dad. Mom. Onii-chan. All of my relatives, and those fun servants. And... Maria onee-chan.  When I started my journey to expose the past of 12 years ago, my goal had been abstract, and I hadn't understood. But now, I have no doubts. This journey... was induced by several thoughts and fates over 12 years. A journey to reach an end for me, Ushiromiya Ange. And, a journey reach an end as the last witch of Mariage Sorcière. I came here as the last daughter of the Ushiromiya family... and as the last witch... "...Dad, Mom, Onii-chan. Sorry. Let me greet Maria onee-chan first."A strong tailwind urged me on. That tailwind took just my soul out from inside my body... to the vast forest beneath me. And, though from here on I couldn't see, I believed that it flew me to the mansion on that day, to where everyone was, to where Maria onee-chan was. And so, even though my body was on the top of a hill, a strong wind blowing against me, my soul was now certainly dancing through that sky... The vast, vast sky of Rokkenjima. Below me was the green of many trees. But... I understand. I can comprehend the presences of my family and relatives... and all the servants. And... Maria onee-chan too. I could even comprehend... Maria onee-chan as a witch. It was vast, more so than any vast space I had imagined up until now.  Ange called to the Maria of that day. She told her of the long journey she'd undergone. Of her long-delayed realization of just how much she'd wounded Maria in her youth. She understood magic... and now understood everything about the world Maria had wanted to show her. It was very warm, overflowing with love and happiness. She wanted to become even happier by sharing that world, but I trampled it. "So now, I finally understand everything. I understand magic...! Our magic is surely very faint and fills the space beside us. But it isn't something that anyone can see with their eyes. Magic is... yes, I can say it clearly." Sorry, Onee-chan. I've already been excommunicated from the alliance of witches, but now, I understand how wonderful it is. And... I know that, after the day I wounded you, Mariage Sorcière... was transfigured into something different from what you truly desired. Even the magic that spat anger by cursing people was probably important to Onee-chan in those days. Onee-chan's environment was sad enough to permit that.  "But now, those sad days... are over. So, let's return Onee-chan's alliance of witches... back to the original Mariage Sorcière."The grimoire was in my hands before I realized it. The strong winds were rapidly blowing its pages one after another... That world had been kind in the beginning. How could you give birth to magic that would make candy fall from the sky? How could you give birth to magic that would make tomorrow's dinner creme croquette? How could you give birth to magic that would make the weather good when you went out the next day, making your whole day fun? New spells of happiness were created one after another, coloring her world with kindness... Those days were flipped through one after another, and months began to flash by...  ...Eerie magic circles and demon summonings. Evil magic for harming people. How could you give birth to magic that would cause the class bully to catch a cold? How could you give birth to magic that would seriously injure someone in class so that they died? How could you give birth to magic that would cause a bus loaded with all the bullies to fall off a cliff? Malicious spells were created one after another, burying the pages and her heart...  "...I'll... return it to how it was. I'll bring back the original Maria onee-chan, the one who scattered magic to make people happy across the entire world. That's the reason I came here. I was guided by fate. Maria onee-chan, can you hear me...? Show yourself before me...!!"That voice rode an even stronger wind and was sent 12 years into the past... Then, the wind gradually ceased, and silence fell...  I listened to those footsteps, surprised at this miracle. Without a doubt, those were Maria onee-chan's footsteps.  "...M-Maria onee-chan..." BGM: None "..."Before I knew it, Aunt Kasumi and her black-suits, a total of seven people who didn't resemble Maria onee-chan in the slightest, were standing there, surrounding me. And it felt like my voice had been just about to reach Maria onee-chan, too... Because of these guys' toxin, that magic was cut off... Ange clicked her tongue at that, but Kasumi probably didn't hear it that way.  "...Hmmmm. Are those flowers for your deceased family? How admirable. You're going to throw them, right? Go ahead, we'll wait that long."...Just what are you waiting for...? But Ange could more or less guess. The way the black-suits unnaturally stuck their hands into their pockets clearly brought to mind the likelihood that they had handguns.  I have absolutely no interest in the family matters of the Sumadera family. But if I die, all that wealth will go to them. Unlike me, they're probably very interested and concerned about this matter. Of course, it seems that if the massive amounts of stock I own suddenly go to them, it'll be pretty bad for the Ushiromiya Group as well, and they're apparently having a secret feud, fighting over me all by themselves. ...That's probably why President Okonogi gave me Amakusa as a guard. Having Amakusa wait on the boat was a regrettable mistake... "Aunt Kasumi, how long have you been waiting for this ambush...?" "Since early morning. Thanks to that, I'm completely tired of waiting. After all, there are no cafes or dressing rooms here." "No toilets either, so I guess you had to elegantly drop a load behind a tree. ...Ack-"s "A lady with half Sumadera blood flowing through her veins will not use such filthy words. You really are Sumadera Kyrie's child. Not a trace of grace."She grabbed me by the hair and forced my face up to hers. And then spat at me. My words might be filthy, but they're no worse than her spit. "...Every time you talk to me, Aunt Kasumi, it's always about Mom. Am I really that much like my mother?" "Yes, you are. That impertinent gaze. Your mouth and nose are the same too. Freewheeling and irresponsible. You thought nothing of the long history and tradition of the Sumadera family... and selfishly flew out of the house. Thanks to that, my entire life has been devoted to cleaning up your mess...!" "I guess your life really has been covered with crap."When I was slapped on the cheek, my ear was smashed, and for an instant, my head rang... My hair was pulled, spinning me around, and I fell to the ground. And in a flash, the ground was kicked and I was struck with sand.  BGM: Rose "...You're a sad person. I'll bet that since you were young, you always got compared to Mom and scorned. And for your entire life, you'll never be released from that wretchedness." "A little girl like you couldn't possibly understand. You see, your mother is a loser who threw everything away and ran away from the Sumadera family, right...?" "Do you know how much... how much trouble I went through because of that loser?!!" "Any trouble you went through has nothing to do with me. Sorry, but what am I supposed to do about something that happened before I was born?" "...When will your life begin? It never will. For all eternity, you'll always, always continue to be sneered at by my dead mother until you die. If only you'd just die. Why are you living?" "You little piss...!! You all...! Make her some tea." "Heheheh... Leave it to us..." "You big-mouthed lovely brat. Let us teach you a little lesson." "Do whatever you want to her until my break is over. Teach my cute niece her place."Sumadera Kasumi. When I think about it, she was a pitiable person. To the outside world, women of the Sumadera family were trained to be in a position that supported and deferred to men. But in actuality, strong leadership was required from them, so that they could manage all the common people. The role demanded of them really was that of a female commander. Managing the Sumadera family with all its traditions was not something that could be accomplished with just an ordinary level of dignity. It was an unimaginably heavy responsibility. Normally, this would have been demanded of Kyrie. Kyrie had undergone that harsh training. And Kasumi, as the younger sister, should have been able to take it easy. No, on the contrary, she had lived like a lazy, selfish and affluent princess, sneering at Kyrie, who had been given the heavy responsibility. ...However, Kyrie had suddenly been disinherited. She had refused the fiancé her parents had arranged...and had gotten pregnant by her lover, Ushiromiya Rudolf. From the Sumaderas' perspective, even though the Ushiromiya family held a vast fortune, it was a low-level family that had already collapsed. And to become not even a legal wife, but a mistress to the second son of that family... Normally, a daughter of the main family would be shown no mercy for such dishonor. They would wrap her up in a mat, place a pole on end, and throw her either into the Pacific Ocean if the pole fell to the right or the Sea of Japan if it fell to the left. ...But Kyrie's punishment ended with disinheritance, an unbelievably warm-hearted decision. After that, the Sumadera family began receiving favorable treatment from a section of the Ushiromiya group. There must've been some kind of backroom deal. In other words, Kyrie openly left the Sumadera family under the pretense of gaining financial support from the Ushiromiya family. Kasumi had watched it happen in shock. No, she even disparaged her dishonorable sister as a loser. But, eventually... She realized that the heavy responsibilities Kyrie had borne would be passed on to her, and then, for the first time, she saw that she'd been outwitted...  "...Isn't that what you get for making light of life until then? ...Gyack! Gah... gah..." "Don't you ever stop talking, girl?! Hyaah!"The black-suit punched me in the gut, and I doubled over. But I was quickly grabbed by the nape of the neck and made to stand up again. Kasumi cold-heartedly looked down at me, smoking a cigarette... The painful days after Kyrie had left were floating through her mind. Until then, she had been allowed to be a simple lady, freewheeling and naive. Only the older sister, Kyrie, had been harshly trained, and she, the younger sister, had been able to live as nothing more than a princess. Then, suddenly, everything got flipped over... and her life came crashing down...  "Glad to hear it. Keep up the good work." "...Graggghh!!"A kick landed in Ange's side as she crawled on the ground. Ange didn't stand up again. So, she continued to lie there like a caterpillar as she was kicked each time she spoke up. "...I saw Nee-san at an Ushiromiya Group party once. She was with her husband, looking very happy... and laughing. She... pushed everything onto me... and found happiness... only for herself..." "...So what? How is taking it out on me going to make you happy? Will taking it out on me turn back time and change history or something?"" "...Uguhguhguh, gah, ghackk...!!" "You said something a short while ago... When will my life start? No matter how much I despise you or take out my frustrations on you, I can't turn back time. So, must I keep hating my sister even though she's gone, until I die?" "You've got to be kidding me. How long will I have to be tormented by my sister's ghost? So I thought of something. If I could accomplish one thing, I'd be able to forget all of my hatred and start over."Ange was about to lash back out at her, but stopped. Because she'd be kicked again if she responded. Even if Kasumi didn't say any more, Ange had a pretty good idea what she meant. Kasumi thought that by taking revenge against Kyrie's daughter, Ange, she'd be able to put an end to her hatred. ...Talk about pushing your problems onto other people.  "...Who'd... say something like that? "...Gwah, ghhh...!!"  "Ange-sama, no...! You mustn't provoke them...!! You should at least make it seem like you're going along with them, so you can buy some time...!" "...They often say that... you should throw your foolish pride... out with the garbage..." 'Oh, what about Amakusa-san...?! If Amakusa-san comes, I'm sure...!' "...It's no use, I can't see him... You idiot, Ange-sama...! Why did you leave Amakusa behind...?!"I didn't need Mammon to tell me. I was seriously regretting it already. 
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Mar 5, 2017 14:29
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On the basis that you can't kill off all your protagonists, I'm guessing Amakusa is going to intervene here somehow. If there was still the possibility of a 19th person, the hidden habour would seem important, but we already know there are 18 people on the island, and who they all are. And the Captain even says someone couldn't have taken a boat from one habour to the other in the storm, so I'm not sure where it leaves us.
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Mar 5, 2017 15:34
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CottonWolf posted:On the basis that you can't kill off all your protagonists 
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Mar 5, 2017 16:28
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True. But up till now, no-one has died permanently. Anyone who dies on Rokkenjima just get's put back on the board at the beginning of the next game. Anyone who dies in the meta-world can always be brought back because ~*~magic~*~. Future-Ange has a more concrete existence than that, and is our only viewpoint to a post-Rokkenjima world. If she dies, she's dead. There's no obvious mechanism to reverse that. Maybe this is all that Ryukishi07 wanted to show in the future, but there's a lot that still feels like it's been leading up to being shown/explained. Based on this update, the inside of Kuwadorian for one, what Ange saw in the Captains house for two, and there's probably more than that I just can't recall at the moment.
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Mar 5, 2017 17:15
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oath2order posted:
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Mar 5, 2017 18:05
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Yeah, this is 100% a setup for Amakusa to show up and badass his way through the suit guys in the next few seconds. I hope Ange makes it out to the main mansion, too; seeing its present-day condition would answer a few questions.
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Mar 5, 2017 18:30
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At least we have an "idea" of the riddle solution. It's finding the path from the main mansion to the underground area, and the gold storage area. Which is why Eva was able to win and survive. I guess the second mansion would be "The Golden Land"?
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Mar 6, 2017 00:02
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idonotlikepeas posted:Yeah, this is 100% a setup for Amakusa to show up and badass his way through the suit guys in the next few seconds. I hope Ange makes it out to the main mansion, too; seeing its present-day condition would answer a few questions. Kind of pulling for a "oh poo poo the Rokkenjima wolves were real" reversal.
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Mar 6, 2017 03:19
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Tender Child Loins posted:Kind of pulling for a "oh poo poo the Rokkenjima wolves were real" reversal. Same. 
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Mar 6, 2017 03:21
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I dunno, that wouldn't be as satisfying, I think. ...wait, I changed my mind.
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Mar 6, 2017 03:46
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code:
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Mar 6, 2017 04:12
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Tender Child Loins posted:
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Mar 6, 2017 04:13
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Does this make Rosa the Big Bad Wolf?
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Mar 6, 2017 04:43
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Ange is Rudolf's daughter, so it begs the question of whether or not she would immediately pet the wolves. 
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Mar 6, 2017 04:50
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Fabulousvillain posted:Ange is Rudolf's daughter, so it begs the question of whether or not she would immediately pet the wolves. Leaked screencap from the next update: 
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Mar 6, 2017 05:55
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So I had a thought about Battler not being Asumu's son, and why it would matter to the Ushiromiyas. It's mentioned there's some kind of deal that let Kyrie live with Rudolf and not be drowned for running off, money's clearly one way, but what if Kyrie made a promise that her child would be a Sumadera - like how Eva had Hideyoshi take her name.
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Mar 6, 2017 06:38
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Welp  http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39177217
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Mar 6, 2017 12:16
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 The moment I grabbed at my head, my scalp was kicked by someone at a bad angle, and my head was filled with stars... The feeling of stars flickering in this gray, twisted world...was one I remembered clearly. My life was very similar to the one Sumadera Kasumi led. After all, as the Successor to the Ushiromiya family, I was tormented constantly with various kinds of bullying... under the guise of education and training. Yes. Having the inside of my head filled with stars like this... is a feeling I know well. When being reprimanded for some error in manners I seemed to have made, the discussion always turned to whether I was fitting to be the Successor or not. On and on about the honor of the Ushiromiya family, and how deep that was. ...By the time the conversation reached that point, I'd forget what mistake I was being blamed for in the first place. No, in fact, it was the same for Aunt Eva. After all, sometimes she'd ask herself "Umm, what was it again?" But in the end, she wouldn't be able to remember, and would say something like...  ...There'd be some ridiculous reasoning like that, and then she'd keep on punishing me. Yes. Aunt Eva's punishment wasn't something that would continue until I learned something, or acknowledged my mistake, or apologized. It would continue until Aunt Eva wanted to stop. So this violence was a bit nostalgic, in a way that made me want to vomit.  BGM: Fortitude Right next to Kasumi, who's smoking a cigarette, I can see Aunt Eva, almost as though the two of them are laughing together. When I think about it, even Aunt Eva's life might be a thing worthy of my sympathy. The responsibility and pressure of being a member of the Ushiromiya family, which she often mentioned to me, had probably caused her great pain. After all, people can't make insults that they've never been the targets of themselves... It was probably the same for Aunt Rosa as well. As the youngest child of the honorable Ushiromiya family, she must've gone through many tough times. So, it was just like what Aunt Eva did to me... Just like what Sumadera Kasumi is doing now... ...Aunt Rosa... must have been the same. People tend to push the pain they're burdened with onto other people. Otherwise, they can never escape from that pain. So on and on, in eternity and perpetuity, the chain of pain and sadness does not end.  With her magic, she didn't have to bear the pain caused by Aunt Rosa. The pain probably was pushed onto her. Its weight probably tormented her. But Onee-chan didn't carry that burden on her own shoulders. She purified it... and filled her world with happiness. So I'm sure... If Maria onee-chan had had children in the future... She probably wouldn't have pushed the pain that had been forced on her onto her children. That chain of pain and sadness that stretched back for who knows how long, which she couldn't understand and which she had inherited, which had been forced onto her... Maria onee-chan cut it with her magic.  In the past, I would have snapped back. I would've met her hatred with hatred, so that they'd cancel each other out. No, nothing got cancelled out. The thing being forced on me ended up right there on my shoulders. Just like how even now, I hate her. So, now that I... know of magic, I'll look at the human called Ushiromiya Eva again.  Unable to withstand the pain of that torn heart, she was doing nothing more than howl sadly, like a lion crying in pain, like a child. Even Ushiromiya Eva was someone I should have felt compassion for. She needed someone to understand the difficulties and pain of her childhood years. Even she, who was the only survivor of the Rokkenjima crime, who was faced with the curiosity of all of society, who was publicly slandered and forced to have salt continually flung into the wound, had needed someone's compassion. In order to let Eva forget her pain and sadness at least a little, the black witch...taught her magic, just like the times it had possessed Aunt Rosa. It was the same magic of anger and sadness...that Beatrice had taught Maria onee-chan when she was mourning for her torn-apart friend, Sakutarou. That same magic... that witch... had probably dwelled inside Aunt Rosa too. So I mustn't hate Ushiromiya Eva. Maybe... I should've become her ally, as the only person in the world who could understand her. ...What did I say to her when I was young, when she returned alive all alone...? Could it be... that I acted... as though she'd killed my family and returned on her own...? ...I can't believe it. Aunt Eva, who has never been more than a object of and a synonym for hatred throughout my life, is turning into... a human I can understand... So, I can see, right next to Aunt Eva, the form of the black witch, who taught her the black magic...  It was only natural. Not only was no one willing to understand the pain of losing her husband and son at once, but her only relative had insulted her, saying 'Give me back my Dad and Mom'. I can make the excuse that I was merciless because of my youth. However, to her at the time, it had probably been cruel enough to sever the last thread in her heart. ...In the following days, the talk shows and magazines publicly slandered her. The truth of her husband's business and character... and even her beloved son were negated. She no longer had anything left. She could do nothing but cry and howl, trying to forget the pain and sadness at least for a while. After all, she could only feel a tiny bit of release, and only during the time that she howled. And so, the black witch taught her how to howl. The one I hated... was the black witch. Black magic can probably release one from that pain for an instant. However, it never lifts that weight from a person's shoulders. On the contrary, it forces that weight onto further victims, filling the world with hatred. If only Aunt Eva knew of white magic... and had a true witch nearby...  BGM: Wingless Didn't I learn the magic to create happiness from Maria onee-chan? If I'd taught her... with that magic, could we have... built a future with a completely different relationship? Up until now, I've hated Aunt Eva constantly. So I didn't notice the black witch beside her. Without love, it could not be 'seen'. I didn't... have any love for her... So now, finally... I'll glare at the black witch, the one I truly should hate.  "...I see you. The one I should've hated wasn't Aunt Eva... It's you." "Whoa, awesome. To think that a lowly Human could 'see' a witch like me. So? Are you trying to say something with that glare? Do you hate me?" "...Hate? Yes, I do. But... that's not quite it. I just think you're sad." "Sad? *giggle*giggle* Ahhahahahahaha! What're you saying?! Come on, go ahead! Why not hate me as much as you waant?!" "...I won't hate. Hating you... means I'm doing nothing more than inheriting Aunt Eva's hatred. I'll put a stop to hatred. I'll accept Aunt Eva's pain, purify it, and throw it away." "Ahhahahahahahahaha!! What kind of epiphany do you think you've had? Is your head all right? Seriously, if only you'd just give up and diie! Kyaahhahhahahahahahaha! You guys, kick her more and more, okay? Not her face, though. 'Cause it'd be boring if her pitiful face got any better!" "Gwurgh! Gwah!! Nngg..." "...My, my, are you still not suffering after all that...? You keep staring right at me. Do you hate me? I'll bet you do. Same here. *giggle*giggle*giggle*..."Kasumi sneered at me. But for some reason, I had the feeling that she was crying behind that expression. Just like me, the pain of being forced into an unreasonable life would never, ever heal. The sad lion gasping in pain from the thorn he can't get out continues to howl...   "...Don't you feel better now? You used to be standing there, but now you're on this side, right? Heheheh, isn't it great? Don't you like having the roles switched?!" "...Yes, it really is... great... Ahhahahahaha, how can you make that kind of face, Ange...?! Go on and cry, you want to, right?!" "Kyahhahahahahahaha!! Yes, yes, of course she wants to cry! Make her cry. Didn't someone make you cry back then? So make her cry too. *giggle* You too, Ange. If only you'd just break down and cry! Kyaaahhahhahhahhahha!!" "...Aha, ahahahahahahaha!! Cry, Angee! I want to see your crying face! Cry, and try saying 'I'm sorry, Aunt Kasumi'...!!" "Yes, make her say those words. Aren't those words painful? Isn't being made to apologize for something that isn't your fault... just the worst pain...? Make her feel the same way... By doing that, you can relieve your pain. Hehheheheh, yeah, that's it. Be a little more honest with yourself, okay? If only you'd just let your emotions run free more, and more, and mooooooooooore!"...The black witch provoked Kasumi. And Kasumi began to give herself over to that dark emotion. By turning deep sadness into an evil alcohol and forcing it down, trying to forget it for just an instant, nothing would change. The words Kasumi insulted me with... were themselves... sad. And, I couldn't forgive the black witch who had imposed that sadness on Kasumi... ...I had gone limp, which seemed to have stopped the black-suits' kicking competition. Or maybe the kickers were getting tired too. Kasumi didn't order them to stop, but at some point, they did. However, I was reflected in Kasumi's eyes, and they burned me with flames of hatred. She had been tempted by the witch to do that in order to relieve her own pain.  "...I can't. I still can't forgive her with just this." "Right? There's no way you can forgive her! Do it more! More of the flames of hatred! Nothing can warm you except the fires of hate. After being frozen in the snow fields of anger and sadness, the only flame that can warm you is hatred...!! Say it, okay? Scream it!! If only you'd just burn yourself to ashes with a roar of haaaaaaaaaate!" "Sumadera Kasumi, look at that bundle of flowers. These flowers are for your dead family, right, Ange?"The black witch grinned at me unpleasantly, using her chin to signal Kasumi to pick it up. Kasumi picked up the flowers I was going to offer, brought them all the way over to me, dropped them, and made a show of trampling them... Her expression was filled with hatred... and a frantic quality that couldn't be explained with hatred alone. ...She trampled them over and over again as though her sadness was reaching the bursting point. So the sound of her trampling it was just sad. "...Oh, still not suffering yet? Then what about this? Sumadera Kasumi! Use this." "...N-No, not that..." Kasumi also noticed it... and picked up that book, which was heavier than it looked... "Whaat's this?" "*giggle* Why not read it? Eheheh, you might fall over laughing, okay?"Kasumi opened the grimoire, skimmed over the contents, and snorted derisively.  BGM: Eternity Of course, my hand couldn't reach. My stomach was once again kicked by the black-suits, and I doubled over... "See? This book's really important to Ange, right? Gotta belittle the things that are important to her, okay? That'll work better than punching or kicking for a girl like her. You know that better than anyone, don't you...?"As though remembering something painful, Kasumi's face twisted for an instant. But that quickly disappeared, changing into a scornful smile directed at me. "*giggle*giggle* Whew, what a creepy book. Did you write this...?" "...Stop it, give it back..." "*giggle*giggle*giggle*, *giggle*giggle*!! Look at that face...! Belittle it more, belittle it more...! Teach her the pain of having your dignity trampled, that's the only way to soften your own pain...!" "Heh, heheheheh, what's with this embarrassing book...? I'll admit I did have a little interest in fortune telling as a girl." "But isn't this going a bit too far? Magic? Ew. You're one of those, aren't you? It's like in those cartoons, where a girl says that something-somethiiiing spell and transforms into a witch, right? You like those, don't you? How pathetic. *giggle*giggle*."Cackling, Kasumi opened to a random page and showed it to the black-suits. The black-suits looked too and guffawed. That sneer didn't wound me. But I couldn't forgive it. After all, that sneer was ridiculing Maria onee-chan. I don't hate Kasumi. But for forcing that unhealing anger and sadness on Kasumi, I cannot forgive the black witch... That black witch ate into Aunt Eva, Sumadera Kasumi, and Aunt Rosa, tormenting them for an eternity without letting their wounds be healed. I can't forgive her... I can't forgive... the black witch...  "What's this? Sprinkle water cleansed by the sun with sugar...? Stick the magic staff in, and then an incantation, *cackle*cackle*cackle*, ahhahahahahahahahaha!! What the hell?! Ahhahahahahahahaha...!! It huuuuuuuurts!!"The black-suits were also rolling around, guffawing. Then, grinning, the black witch whispered something into Kasumi's ear. After glaring at me with a grin, Kasumi took that page- "...Ah..." BGM: Thanks for Being Born  '...S-So cruel. That was... Maria's magic...' "Oh, really? Heheh, how sad."...It was one of the spells to summon happiness... that Maria had made with Sakutarou. Anyone knows that making sugar water, coloring it, and leaving it by the window... isn't going to make candy fall from the sky. But after repeating that every day, one time on her way home from school... She had found several pieces of candy scattered around... How happy must that miracle have made Maria onee-chan? Didn't she treasure that candy, eating it during her night alone with Sakutarou to distract herself from her loneliness? That... magic that Onee-chan had given birth to... had been torn and thrown away... and had disappeared... The whole miracle of happiness that magic had given birth to... had been torn and thrown away...  "Tear that too. Eheheh!! If only you'd just tear it more and moooooooore!!"With a brutal, loud laugh, the black witch made Maria onee-chan's spells get torn out one after another... Magic of happiness was... sneered at, torn, and thrown away...  "Stop it, stop it...!! Don't... defile Lady MARIA's magic...!! Don't defile it... with your filthy toxin...!!"Mammon cried and yelled, but she had no way of reaching Kasumi. "Come on, why not defile it?! Miracles of magic? Magic to bring happiness? No way, nothing like that exists! Don't you know that you can't heal pain and sadness without pushing it onto someone else? Hey, you also had those magic friend things, right?" "*cackle*cackle*cackle*! Sumadera Kasumi, open to that page." "What's this? Magic friends? The Seven Sisters of Purgatory? Aha, what a creepy name! *giggle* It says they can fly at awesome speeds and finish off the enemy. Ahhaha, Ange, if you can use this kind of magic, shouldn't you use it right now? Ahhahahahaha. Foolish!"The page that wrote of the Seven Sisters of Purgatory was also heartlessly torn away. The page itself was just paper. It wasn't Mammon's vessel or anything. But the tearing, denying toxin burned Mammon from the inside... Mammon's face twisted from that heat and pain...   'Are you okay, Mammon?! Hold on...!!' "...This much is... no problem... It's not me, but Ange-sama... who's in pain..."However, Mammon's expression was twisted with unbearable anguish and humiliation... 'Stop it, black witch...!! Why are you doing something like this?! Why... can't you use magic for happiness?!!' "...Oh, you're a magic friend too, right? *giggle* I'll defile you too. Sumadera Kasumi, look for this guy's page too, okay?" "Ahhahahahahahaha!! It really is a crappy scribble. This ugly lion is totally you." "To think she had something like this as a friend... That Ushiromiya Maria kid's mind is so pathetic it's embarassing, what a joooke. She's like, a moron. If only she'd just give up... and diiiiiiiieee...!" 'U...ryu... Don't make fun... of Maria...' "...St...op...it... Don't break it..." ""No waay.""There was a shrill sound. The page had been filthily ripped out... The picture of Sakutarou... that Onee-chan had drawn... was violently ripped in half...      "You all laugh too, okay? Ahhahahahahahahaha...!"A pair of the black-suits laughed vulgarly... and heartlessly trampled the two halves that had been torn and thrown away... 'Uuuuuuuuuuuu, hic! Uuuuuuuuuuu...' "...Sakutaro, hang in there..." 'I'm... not sad... I just... can't stand it... I can't stand that... Maria's being made fun of, and I can't do anything about it...' "...To Humans who can't 'see' us, it's as though we don't exist... We can only interact with Humans that need us. That's why... we're furniture..."As Sakutarou and Mammon... supported each other, they crouched down, sobbing... I couldn't stand it either... Those who can't 'see' how wonderful the world of magic is... can't understand it. You can't explain to humans who can't understand. So it gets belittled. If you could show them it... But you can't... Because, in front of Humans who are filled with the magic-resisting toxin and who can't understand magic, magic cannot be used... "I really don't get it. From this delusional diary, I've got to assume that something's wrong with your head. It really is fun to take a peek into your mind. You creepy child." "Both you and Maria. And that stuffed animal and the furniture over there too, right? *giggle*giggle*giggle*!! Ahhahahahahahahahahaha!" "Aah, I could laugh. You don't have any friends, do you? You're aaalways all alone, so stuffed animals are your friends? What a pitiable child. Heheheheheheheheh...! Don't worry, I understand. I know what it's like to live that way. So I'll accept it. You really are a pitiable child, right? Ehhehehhahahahahahahaha!"...To you, it probably would look... like something made by a pitiful child. That's right. If a hundred people were to read Onee-chan's diary, a hundred people would probably think the same thing. I used to be like that too. But you know, despite all of that, Maria onee-chan... summoned a world of happiness. Don't deny... that magic, that happiness... "Such a stubborn child, you are. Very well. This is the last one. I'll tear apart the source of the truly foolish magic that you and Maria believed in. Sumadera Kasumi, read this page, okay?" 'St-Stop iiiiiiiiiiit!! Not that page...!!' "Aha. This magic's really simple, isn't it? It looks like even I could do it. Even I could remember an incantation this short. Shall I give it a whirl?" "*giggle*giggle* It really is a short incantation, isn't it? Okay, give it a try, let's have everyone spit it out!"With expressions that ridiculed it from the bottom of their hearts, the black witch and Kasumi... tapered their mouths. And they said it aloud... 
Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 14:30
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That last line hurt a lot more than I expected it to.
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Mar 6, 2017 14:42
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Mar 6, 2017 14:46
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bman in 2288 posted:Let me fix that: 
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Mar 6, 2017 14:53
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 Everyone just got owned.
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Mar 6, 2017 15:21
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Oh, god. It's not a tic, it's an invocation of love. It's a cry for help that persists even as Head-Crusher MARIA starts being born from all the suppressed anger and resentment...  But even so, I have mixed feelings about this update. Ange's epiphanies regarding the effect of abuse and public animosity on Eva are important, and the whole theme of abuse creating abuse is something that's been shouted from the rooftops since the first bit in the garden, but...to have another instance of "let's tear up a little girl's belongings" in a chapter that already had Sakuratou being torn up feels... excessive and overly maudlin. Sakuratou felt like a punch in the gut, but aside from the last panel (which is a great and depressing way to start the day) the rest just feels draining. I mean, I applaud the point being made here and can infer that Ryukishi07 has extremely strong feelings regarding this subject (even if I am iffy about the prospect of victims learning to empathize with their abusers while in the process of abuse- don't get me wrong, learning to forgive those that wronged you is an important step in moving on, but surely forgiveness can wait until the victim has actually been separated and given solace from the abuser), but... we were trying to solve a mystery here, you know? And after the bombshell that dropped two updates ago that apparently obliterated our main character, I was under the impression that we would actually learn something new, instead of stuff we've already learned- like "Evatrice is a bitch," "Ange's life sucks," "Sakuratou is cute and tries his best," etc.
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Mar 6, 2017 15:23
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Well nobody has ever accused Umineko's pacing of being its strong suit.
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Mar 6, 2017 16:08
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Indeed. I recall a couple notes that Eps 1 and 3 were more tightly edited, and 2 and 4 were... not, and I think I see what they mean. I've liked all the episodes and it feels like all that we've learned is necessary to the mystery, but there do seem to be a bit of needless repetition and wallowing in misery to prove a point in 2, and now in 4, while 1 was a tight beginning to the story which started normal and then gets progressively darker and more Lynchian, and 3 is... well, 3 is just pretty much a blast that gives us new information every scene. If I were to rate them by order of enjoyment, most enjoyed first, I'd go: 3, 1, 2, 4.
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Mar 6, 2017 16:24
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EP3 is definitely the strongest of the question arcs, yeah. My list has EP4 a bit higher, but a lot of that is packed into the remaining scenes we haven't seen yet, and it's definitely the weakest editing in the series. If I had to pick a top three Episodes list, though, I think all three of them would be in the back half.
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Mar 6, 2017 16:28
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lotus circle posted:
Fixed that for you.
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Mar 6, 2017 16:35
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'd.
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Well now I know magic isn't real. That spell didn't work at all. 
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Mar 6, 2017 17:05
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SardonicTyrant posted:Well now I know magic isn't real. That spell didn't work at all. Goddamn
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Mar 6, 2017 17:43
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SardonicTyrant posted:Well now I know magic isn't real. That spell didn't work at all. Ban this person
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Mar 6, 2017 17:50
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R07 loves to hide trees in forests, but yeah, as great as EP4 is it probably could have benefited from some more editing. It kinda feels like he realized too late he had to write the whole Ange and Maria exposition and fit in the Rokkenjima part as well before the question arc ends. Well, it probably didn't help that there's less time between the summer Comiket in August and the winter Comiket in December than the other way around.
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Mar 6, 2017 17:54
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Not apologizing. Her "magic incantation" to make her mother love her was one of the main things that angered her. If Maria was having such a difficult time understanding that (I'm pretty sure Rosa bitched about it every day), then she legit has some bad mental problems, caused by lovely parenting. Kinzo's fault, obviously. bman in 2288 fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 17:57
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bman in 2288 posted:Not apologizing. Her "magic incantation" to make her mother love her was one of the main things that angered her. If Maria was having such a difficult time understanding that (I'm pretty sure Rosa bitched about it every day), then she legit has some bad mental problems, caused by lovely parenting. I don't think you're seriously suggesting Maria's abuse is her fault, so I'm gonna go ahead and assume this is your defense mechanism against massive witch-dunking. tiistai posted:R07 loves to hide trees in forests, but yeah, as great as EP4 is it probably could have benefited from some more editing. It kinda feels like he realized too late he had to write the whole Ange and Maria exposition and fit in the Rokkenjima part as well before the question arc ends. Well, it probably didn't help that there's less time between the summer Comiket in August and the winter Comiket in December than the other way around. There's an old quote I think attributed to Mark Twain where he says he could have shortened the letter he wrote, if only he had morever time. It's no coincidence that the even numbered episodes tend to feel a lot messier and less polished. oath2order fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 18:08
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oath2order posted:I don't think you're seriously suggesting Maria's abuse is her fault, so I'm gonna go ahead and assume this is your defense mechanism against massive witch-dunking. Yeah, that was a lovely thing to say. It's still Rosa's fault for literally abusing her child, instead of trying to work through it with Maria.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:11
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Sigh...resurgam40 posted:Indeed. I recall a couple notes that Eps 1 and 3 were more tightly edited, and 2 and 4 were... not, and I think I see what they mean. I've liked all the episodes and it feels like all that we've learned is necessary to the mystery, but there do seem to be a bit of needless repetition and wallowing in misery to prove a point in 2, and now in 4, while 1 was a tight beginning to the story which started normal and then gets progressively darker and more Lynchian, and 3 is... well, 3 is just pretty much a blast that gives us new information every scene. If I were to rate them by order of enjoyment, most enjoyed first, I'd go: 3, 1, 2, 4. I think you're underestimating the complete weirdness of 2's ending. I'd go 3, 2, 1, 4 thus far. But maybe ProfessorProf's right and 4'll make it up at the end. I've started a readthrough of the new translation of Higurashi. I'm only on the first chapter at the moment, but it has the Umineko chapter 1 (and 2) thing of an incredibly slow start then ramping up insanely fast. It was less obvious in the anime because everything was so compressed, so maybe Ryukishi07's talent's in plotting not pacing more generally. Also, the soundtrack doesn't hold a candle to the stuff we've heard here so far. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 19:02
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Pretty sure the first few episodes of Higurashi used freely available music. Anyways, I didn't really find this a pacing issue when playing. LPs do kind of distort pacing, reading through this works fine imo.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:27
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Dr Pepper posted:Pretty sure the first few episodes of Higurashi used freely available music. I could believe that. There are upsettingly many annoying looping tracks.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:54
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