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fool_of_sound posted:Yeah, I agree on that point, but extending that to 'all depictions of slavery in fantasy are bad' is dumb as hell. Dog that's not what I was saying
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Mar 9, 2017 18:40
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fool_of_sound posted:Yeah, I agree on that point, but extending that to 'all depictions of slavery in fantasy are bad' is dumb as hell. The idea isn't that 'all depictions of slavery in fantasy are bad', it's that no one who writes fantasy RPGs is in any way shape or form intellectually capable of writing about slavery in a way that isn't loving awful garbage, so just throw it out instead of trying to make hand-wringing excuses to keep it in that are complete bullshit.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:42
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Ominous Jazz posted:Dog that's not what I was saying No, but it's what some other posters were saying! S.J. posted:The idea isn't that 'all depictions of slavery in fantasy are bad', it's that no one who writes fantasy RPGs is in any way shape or form intellectually capable of writing about slavery in a way that isn't loving awful garbage, so just throw it out instead of trying to make hand-wringing excuses to keep it in that are complete bullshit. Like this one! A lot of writers engage human tragedy badly. It's a reason to do better, not a reason to avoid the topic. fool of sound fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 18:45
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fool_of_sound posted:
So, who's trying to do better? Because what this seems to be about is the people who want to continue engaging human tragedy badly.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:54
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remusclaw posted:So, who's trying to do better? Because what this seems to be about is the people who want to continue engaging human tragedy badly. I guess it wasn't clear from my initial posts, but my beef is engaging the posters who say 'just don't depict slavery in fantasy at all', not the people who say it's done badly.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:56
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It's still better to not bring up a contentious topic than it is to do so in a way that paints you as either utterly clueless or someone who supports spreading human misery. Better writers would recognize that. Also Mind-flayers are purple dog, that counts as dark since for the purposes of fantasy races, anything that's not 'white' has been color coded as evil by goddamn fantasy racists.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:56
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fool_of_sound posted:I guess it wasn't clear from my initial posts, but my beef is engaging the posters who say 'just don't depict slavery in fantasy at all', not the people who say it's done badly. On that front, if the writer doesn't have anything interesting to say about slavery, why should they include it?
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Mar 9, 2017 18:57
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if your goal is to include slavers as irredeemable villains who must be murdered relentlessly, then I say go wild
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Mar 9, 2017 18:59
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Okay, the idea of running into slaves as exotic decorations never really occurred to me, and I can see how that sucks. At the same time, it just seems more obvious that it's there to provide a moral conundrum, albeit one they can murder-hobo  I still say Drow make more sense as a stand in for the Colonial powers. Also now I want to play Roland the Dullahan Gunner.
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Mar 9, 2017 18:59
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remusclaw posted:On that front, if the writer doesn't have anything interesting to say about slavery, why should they include it? In terms of setting writing? To have ready made villains for player character to oppose, imo. Serf posted:if your goal is to include slavers as irredeemable villains who must be murdered relentlessly, then I say go wild Basically this.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:00
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remusclaw posted:On that front, if the writer doesn't have anything interesting to say about slavery, why should they include it? is there really anything interesting to say about slavery at all though there's not really a lot of moral nuance to dig into on the subject of owning other human beings
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Mar 9, 2017 19:01
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fool_of_sound posted:Like this one! that's not what i said either, dude people who can't write about a sensitive topic well shouldn't write about it is not the same as saying fantasy shouldn't include any depictions of slavery
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Mar 9, 2017 19:03
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fool_of_sound posted:In terms of setting writing? To have ready made villains for player character to oppose, imo. I suppose then that the game is specifically about fighting the slavers. I would assume then that that is at least one of the most important parts of the setting and is that the institutions of slavery and slavers are explicitly the antagonist. Putting that aside, why include slavery if it isn't one of core aspects of what you are writing about? remusclaw fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 19:04
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like look, the gm here introduces the concept of slavery with a clear intent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFOvbpu6X4U to make the players mad. it gets an instantaneous, visceral reaction just like it was intended to. it can be considered a cheap tactic to get players involved in the story, but it is effective
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Mar 9, 2017 19:04
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Alright so what the gently caress are mindflayers because I thought they were deep ones but underground in literal spaceships except underground and they were up to like weird experiments and hellraiser poo poo
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Mar 9, 2017 19:05
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Mind flayers are pink or dirty white (taupe?) according to the Illthadia. What is this purple nonsense.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:06
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remusclaw posted:I suppose then that the game is specifically about fighting the slavers. I would assume then that that is at least one of the most important parts of the setting and is that slavery and slavers are explicitly the antagonist. Putting that aside, why include slavery if it isn't one of core aspects of what you are writing about? Why include brutal warlords in a setting not wholly and specifically about fighting brutal warlords? A setting can have multiple ready made villains. S.J. posted:that's not what i said either, dude Those were not the words you typed. You posted that 'no fantasy writer can engage it well, ever, so just don't'.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:07
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Ominous Jazz posted:Alright so what the gently caress are mindflayers because I thought they were deep ones but underground in literal spaceships except underground and they were up to like weird experiments and hellraiser poo poo They kind of act like white people? 
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Mar 9, 2017 19:08
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fool_of_sound posted:In terms of setting writing? To have ready made villains for player character to oppose, imo. Yeah I don't have issues with you putting (bad thing) in as motivation for a villain of the week. As long as you realize it's just pure escapism there's no harm there. It's when you, for example, put slavery into a nation that the PCs are supposed to be from that the red flags start going off in my head and the siren noises start playing. Like, if you're playing a historical game (imperial rome for ex) completely straight then okay, but you better handle poo poo with appropriate gravitas. But for completely fictional settings there's no reason to include poo poo like that unless you want to signal that somebody is a bad guy. Ominous Jazz posted:Alright so what the gently caress are mindflayers because I thought they were deep ones but underground in literal spaceships except underground and they were up to like weird experiments and hellraiser poo poo Mindflayers are squid head dudes that eat brains and keep human slaves that they later eat. That's their core concept. They've got like mind control powers and poo poo and they spend their time infighting, but their core goals are eating human brains and oppressing the hell out of anyone not a squidhead.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:08
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mind flayers are mini cthulhus. or i guess they would be star-spawn
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Mar 9, 2017 19:09
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Anyone here ever play Sierra adventure games like King's Quest, Quest for Glory, or Space Quest? Their love of lethality and generally obtuse puzzles remind me of 70s TRPGs for some reason.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:12
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fool_of_sound posted:You posted that 'no fantasy writer can engage it well, ever, so just don't'. there is a quote function, and no i didn't like, i made it pretty specifically about fantasy rpgs first of all, and the people who write them, so uhhhh but yeah, fantasy rpg writers can't engage in it well. they shouldn't. it's pretty straight forward
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Mar 9, 2017 19:13
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Space Quest was my jam.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:13
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fool_of_sound posted:Why include brutal warlords in a setting not wholly and specifically about fighting brutal warlords? A setting can have multiple ready made villains. So the answer is basically "Why not?"? If you don't have a defensible reason for doing something, and are challenged on that something, I am more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the folks who will argue from a position they are passionate about than a side who argues from "why not?" And that is not to say that "Why not?" is indefensible, just that it is by far the weakest argument for something that people take issue with. I mean, do whatever, why not? But when people have issues with it, "why not?" isn't good enough anymore, you need something stronger.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:13
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S.J. posted:there is a quote function, and no i didn't S.J. posted:it's that no one who writes fantasy RPGs is in any way shape or form intellectually capable of writing about slavery in a way that isn't loving awful garbage, so just throw it out instead of trying to make hand-wringing excuses to keep it in that are complete bullshit. It's hard to lie, when there's a quote function. e: oh, so it's only fantasy rpg writers who are, utterly incapable of ever engaging it well. That makes your idiotic claim much more reasonable!
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Mar 9, 2017 19:14
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fool_of_sound posted:It's hard to lie, when there's a quote function. You are not reading my post, so please stop responding to it. Unless you don't understand how things earlier in a sentence are implied to be carried over to the rest of the sentence??
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Mar 9, 2017 19:15
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S.J. posted:You are not reading my post, so please stop responding to it. I am, your claim is still dumb as gently caress.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:16
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S.J. posted:You are not reading my post, so please stop responding to it. Unless you don't understand how things earlier in a sentence are implied to be carried over to the rest of the sentence?? No. You need to learn to not make runon sentences.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:16
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People who write fantasy rpgs aren't really able to handle the topic well. Those people shouldn't include it in their products. Sorry if there was confusion but it's pretty straight forward.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:17
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remusclaw posted:So the answer is basically "Why not?"? If you don't have a defensible reason for doing something, and are challenged on that something, I am more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the folks who will argue from a position they are passionate about than a side who argues from "why not?" And that is not to say that "Why not?" is indefensible, just that it is by far the weakest argument for something that people take issue with. Uh, my counter here is 'why throw it out'? What is particularly bad about the human tragedy of slavery that it must not be engaged, compared to war/murder/tyranny ect?
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Mar 9, 2017 19:17
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Kwyndig posted:Space Quest was my jam. And somewhat ironically, Space Jam was your quest.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:18
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Fuego Fish posted:And somewhat ironically, Space Jam was your quest. I've never actually seen Space Jam.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:18
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S.J. posted:People who write fantasy rpgs aren't really able to handle the topic well. Those people shouldn't include it in their products. Sorry if there was confusion but it's pretty straight forward. Yeah I still take issue with your categorical claim but whatever.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:19
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fool_of_sound posted:Yeah I still take issue with your categorical claim but whatever. I don't think it's any different than tyranny/war/murder, actually. Most people who write fantasy rpgs are bad at it imo though just in general
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Mar 9, 2017 19:20
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S.J. posted:I don't think it's any different than tyranny/war/murder, actually. Most people who write fantasy rpgs are bad at it imo though just in general Ok sure, I can agree with that
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Mar 9, 2017 19:20
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Kwyndig posted:Space Quest was my jam. Hey, if you happen to remember, where do you find the star coordinates in Space Quest V, by the way? Wasn't in the manual and there isn't a hint book in it like Space Quest IV*. *On the subject, hiding the code to finish the game in the hintbook is a dickmove. "Try this item; try that one; since neither of those items are actually in the game, use this code; and since that code doesn't work use the real one here:"
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Mar 9, 2017 19:20
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Rockopolis posted:Brain eating parasitic monsters that vary in appearance based on host? oh man i am totally stealing Good Old Fashioned Mind Flayer Hospitality next time I run something in D&D proper
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Mar 9, 2017 19:23
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fool_of_sound posted:Uh, my counter here is 'why throw it out'? What is particularly bad about the human tragedy of slavery that it must not be engaged, compared to war/murder/tyranny ect? To play devil's advocate... what is particularly bad about the human tragedy of rape that it must not be engaged, compared to war/murder/tyranny ect?
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Mar 9, 2017 19:23
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Kwyndig posted:You need to learn to not make runon sentences. That's fair actually yeah I think that's why my post was confusing. I think slavery is especially bad compared to war/violence in general though because I don't believe slavery can be excused under any circumstances, but physical violence and conflict can come from a place of genuine good in an effort to do well and actually make things better for everyone. It's just sad that it is necessary some times, and most wars are bullshit that cover for this with lies and appeals at that kind of legitimate moral argument. The kinds of analogies to real world situations that war/violence are used for in fantasy writing can almost always be used to cover the kinds of things that slavery is also used for in those settings. As such I think war/violence is more than enough in these fictional settings to cover whatever point you're trying to get across.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:23
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Haystack posted:To play devil's advocate... what is particularly bad about the human tragedy of rape that it must not be engaged, compared to war/murder/tyranny ect? Because that's a personal and private tragedy, and not a societal one.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:24
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