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Covok posted:Hey, if you happen to remember, where do you find the star coordinates in Space Quest V, by the way? Wasn't in the manual and there isn't a hint book in it like Space Quest IV*. They're on pages 17 and 18 of the manual, actually, surrounding Gir Draxon's horoscopes. Look for the planets.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:24
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Covok posted:Anyone here ever play Sierra adventure games like King's Quest, Quest for Glory, or Space Quest? Their love of lethality and generally obtuse puzzles remind me of 70s TRPGs for some reason.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:26
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Kwyndig posted:They're on pages 17 and 18 of the manual, actually, surrounding Gir Draxon's horoscopes. Look for the planets. I knew it was copy protection! Thanks, I'll use that when I get home from work today. I actually thought maybe the horoscope had a secret in it on my way to work today.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:27
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Covok posted:Anyone here ever play Sierra adventure games like King's Quest, Quest for Glory, or Space Quest? Their love of lethality and generally obtuse puzzles remind me of 70s TRPGs for some reason.  Quest for Glory was my childhood, and probably why I like Paladins, though they're not as cool as Sweet Wizard Paladins!
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Mar 9, 2017 19:27
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fool_of_sound posted:Because that's a personal and private tragedy, and not a societal one. I hella disagree about wars/etc not being private and personal, but agree on rape. Wars create a lot of situations for personal and private tragedy, more than enough so that it would be able to adequately cover any situations in which you might otherwise think rape (or slavery!) is appropriate.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:27
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Haystack posted:To play devil's advocate... what is particularly bad about the human tragedy of rape that it must not be engaged, compared to war/murder/tyranny ect? Well, I think it is significantly more likely that a person at your table is a victim of or friends with victims of rape and sexual assault. There's a reason college classrooms offer (completely legit) trigger warnings when discussing those topics or let students know ahead of time and offer alternate assignments, but the same is not really true of slavery and combat. This of course does not mean modem slavery or human trafficking does not exist obviously, but for better or worse people are more distanced from those than they are rape.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:27
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Haystack posted:To play devil's advocate... what is particularly bad about the human tragedy of rape Welp
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Mar 9, 2017 19:28
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fool_of_sound posted:Uh, my counter here is 'why throw it out'? What is particularly bad about the human tragedy of slavery that it must not be engaged, compared to war/murder/tyranny ect? I don't think it must not be engaged, but I think that the people who have issue with it should be engaged with. What is so important about it that it must be maintained, and fought for, as a usable concept? When it comes down to it, the argument against slavery in gaming has people jumping up to defend it. Why? It's not like they couldn't just ignore the people calling them out and just keep doing what they are doing. They feel a need to engage that has to go deeper than "Why not?" or they would't feel such a need to engage. Is it just a censorship thing? If so, why not defend it that way? Why, for instance, do people(not you as far as I can tell), go all apologetic on ancient slavery as opposed to American chattel slavery when defending it?
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Mar 9, 2017 19:29
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S.J. posted:I hella disagree. Wars create a lot of situations for personal and private tragedy, more than enough so that it would be able to adequately cover any situations in which you might otherwise think rape is appropriate. I also think people shouldn't use rape in their rpgs. Maybe I wasn't clear. Rape is always a personal and private tragedy. Murder/war/tyranny/slavery are often societal tragedies. They can also cause personal and private tragedies, but they aren't strictly so.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:29
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Haystack posted:To play devil's advocate... what is particularly bad about the human tragedy of rape that it must not be engaged, compared to war/murder/tyranny ect? Bar Crow fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 19:30
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fool_of_sound posted:Maybe I wasn't clear. Rape is always a personal and private tragedy. Murder/war/tyranny/slavery are often societal tragedies. They can also cause personal and private tragedies, but they aren't strictly so. I mean, I still disagree. I believe war/etc are personal and private tragedies writ large, which is why slavery and rape is so unnecessary for the kinds of analogy focused story telling that fantasy provides. It's already covered in such a way that it's easier to distance from emotionally (generally speaking, of course).
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Mar 9, 2017 19:31
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remusclaw posted:Why, for instance, do people(not you as far as I can tell), go all apologetic on ancient slavery as opposed to American chattel slavery when defending it? again it's an issue of distancing, american racial politics are still very much tainted by the history of black slavery and the poisonous ideologies that justified it
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Mar 9, 2017 19:33
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Haystack posted:To play devil's advocate You don't need to do this goddammit
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Mar 9, 2017 19:33
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Covok posted:I knew it was copy protection! Thanks, I'll use that when I get home from work today. I actually thought maybe the horoscope had a secret in it on my way to work today. Yeah, I remember getting that when it came out and being annoyed because the manual was kind of flimsy. Usually copy protection schemes were made out of sturdier paper stock. Speaking of copy protection, I played the original Wing Commander so much I actually ended up memorizing the copy protection questions. Don't remember them now, but that was kind of funny to me back then.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:35
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Still, 'm glad we took the time to reinforce the point Jessica Price made about unnecessarily intellectual exercises.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:37
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remusclaw posted:I don't think it must not be engaged, but I think that the people who have issue with it should be engaged with. What is so important about it that it must be maintained, and fought for, as a usable concept? I guess it is a censorship thing, in my mind? I mean, I don't have a problem not engaging topics that are legitimately going to hurt the people I'm interacting with, but legal slavery is so removed from the experience of almost any modern people that using it as a strictly villainous fantasy thing is harmless. I wouldn't want to depict modern slavery though, like say, Shadowrun. S.J. posted:I mean, I still disagree. I believe war/etc are personal and private tragedies writ large, which is why slavery and rape is so unnecessary for the kinds of analogy focused story telling that fantasy provides. It's already covered in such a way that it's easier to distance from emotionally (generally speaking, of course). I mean, modern people are more likely to have been affected by war or murder than legal slavery. fool of sound fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 19:37
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S.J. posted:I mean, I still disagree. I believe war/etc are personal and private tragedies writ large, which is why slavery and rape is so unnecessary for the kinds of analogy focused story telling that fantasy provides. It's already covered in such a way that it's easier to distance from emotionally (generally speaking, of course). I think it mostly comes down to the fact that we are still willing as a society to accept that violence is necessary and sometimes justifiable, where we are often not like that anymore with slavery and rape. I have experience with people who are still willing to justify slavery and rape in such a way, and they are not pleasant to deal with but they used to have far more company than they do now. If, utopia of utopia's, we move on in the future to a place where violence is no longer treated as an acceptable answer to certain questions, it is entirely likely that depictions of violence in fiction and in gaming will come under similar mass scrutiny.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:38
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remusclaw posted:I think it mostly comes down to the fact that we are still willing as a society to accept that violence is necessary and sometimes justifiable, where we are often not like that anymore with slavery and rape. I have experience with people who are still willing to justify slavery and rape in such a way, and they are not pleasant to deal with but they used to have far more company than they do now. I touched on that a bit with the post before that one, and I agree. I think that human beings, being what they will, will inevitably produce situations in which violence is the only way for people to be (or perceived to be) removed from the situation. Sometimes those situations are significant enough to actually justify physical violence as a means of escape, either for yourself or for others sake. And that sucks, but I genuinely don't think that will ever go away. fool_of_sound posted:I mean, modern people are more likely to have been affected by war or murder than legal slavery. Sure, and we often believe that slavery is worse than war or murder in some ways, which makes it easier to distance ourselves from it emotionally. I'd like you to be more specific about what you mean by 'legal slavery' because that can be anywhere from the slavery of the blacks in the US to effectively working a 9-5 job thousands of years ago, so I'm not really sure how to take your comments on it. S.J. fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 19:40
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S.J. posted:Sure, and we often believe that slavery is worse than war or murder in some ways, which makes it easier to distance ourselves from it emotionally. I'd like you to be more specific about what you mean by 'legal slavery' because that can be anywhere from the slavery of the blacks in the US to effectively working a 9-5 job thousands of years ago, so I'm not really sure how to take your comments on it. I uh, wouldn't really every compare slavery to working a 9-5 job, and don't think the exact flavor of slavery matters for this conversation? Suffice to say it's all 'very bad' to 'atrociously bad'. e; my point was comparing slavery backed by a government, versus modern illegal slavery. fool of sound fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Mar 9, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 19:48
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Holy loving poo poo just talk about elves
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Mar 9, 2017 19:48
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Ominous Jazz posted:Holy loving poo poo just talk about elves No, they have to determine which of rape or war or slavery is the worst, and nobody else can stop them.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:51
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I don't like elves. 
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Mar 9, 2017 19:51
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fool_of_sound posted:I uh, wouldn't really every compare slavery to working a 9-5 job, and don't think the exact flavor of slavery matters for this conversation? Suffice to say it's all 'very bad' to 'atrociously bad'. That's what I assumed I just wasn't sure why you'd be putting 'legal' in front of it, my bad Kwyndig posted:I don't like elves. same
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Mar 9, 2017 19:52
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Kwyndig posted:I don't like elves. elves definitely make no sense
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Mar 9, 2017 19:53
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I like elves because I'm a contrarian.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:53
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i like to tell myself i only like elves when people put an interesting spin on them but that's a lie, i just love elves no matter what it's me, i'm the guy who will fight all of you elf haters
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Mar 9, 2017 19:53
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I only like anime elves.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:54
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Nuns with Guns posted:Still, 'm glad we took the time to reinforce the point Jessica Price made about unnecessarily intellectual exercises. Yeah, this thread did an amazing job proving her point.
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Mar 9, 2017 19:58
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In no way complete and very pedantic media classification scheme on ways to depict slavery: Endorsement via omission: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bWyhj7siEY (In Song of the South, Uncle Remus is depicted as enjoying his life as a slave. While there was a variance of treatment by slave owners in the antebellum South, by portraying it as "not that bad" it minimizes the real dehumanizing effects of slavery on real humans, thus leading to this like Ben Carson referring to slaves as "immigrants") Realistic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7iIyAfWg_w (12 Years a Slave is based on the writings of Solomon Northrup, who was kidnapped in Washington DC and sold into slavery. There are departures from the book -- for example during the slave ship it is unlikely that the sailor would have been allowed to murder the slave who tried to stop him from raping another slave, because that slave is worth more as sold goods, and the economics of the period wouldn't allow for such casual destruction of property -- but it gets more right than wrong, and does not shy away from unflattering depictions of humanity at its worst) Satirical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w36z7XnwOM (In Blazing Saddles, Cleavon Little is depicted as being worth less than a handcart to Slim Pickens, with all the whites in the scene outright ignoring the plight of the black characters. The racism is depicted so broadly and extremely that it can be laughed at, but at the same time in no way does it make the racists look favorable -- they look ridiculous, and their claims seem even stupider when put into plain language. If done incorrectly, or without skill, it could be seen as endorsing the racist position, but the writing and acting is good enough to convey the intended meaning to all but the densest of viewers)
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Mar 9, 2017 19:58
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Thanks
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Mar 9, 2017 20:00
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fool_of_sound posted:I only like anime elves. Tolkien elves are basically anime, so I could have just emptyquoted this, but I didn't.
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Mar 9, 2017 20:07
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I guess I don't want ignore the disagreement and move on because disagreeing with people makes me feel bad. I'm dumb enough to want some kind of resolution. Besides, it's important enough to keep pages of surprisingly not bad discussion going. Slavery is a big, evil topic. Toph, where does Django Unchained fall on that scale? Satirically violent?
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Mar 9, 2017 20:08
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Rockopolis posted:I guess I don't want ignore the disagreement and move on because disagreeing with people makes me feel bad. I'm dumb enough to want some kind of resolution. Yeah I kinda take issue with the idea that when and how certain evils should be depicted is an 'unnecessary intellectual exercise'.
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Mar 9, 2017 20:11
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fool_of_sound posted:Yeah I kinda take issue with the idea that when and how certain evils should be depicted is an 'unnecessary intellectual exercise'. Eh, if it weren't for people complaining about discussion when it happens threads would be even slower.
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Mar 9, 2017 20:13
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Rockopolis posted:Toph, where does Django Unchained fall on that scale? Satirically violent? Django is the best Tarantino movie
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Mar 9, 2017 20:21
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Rockopolis posted:I guess I don't want ignore the disagreement and move on because disagreeing with people makes me feel bad. I'm dumb enough to want some kind of resolution. Djanjo Unchained is an attempt by someone outside of the group to write and create a revenge fantasy for people of a group. Same thing with Inglorious Bastards, really.
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Mar 9, 2017 20:27
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fool_of_sound posted:Yeah I kinda take issue with the idea that when and how certain evils should be depicted is an 'unnecessary intellectual exercise'. Yeah, Jessica Price did not imply that this stuff isn't worth discussing or debating, just that she would limit herself to doing so with people she knew and could trust to be respectful of her when doing so, and rightly so. It has to be loving exhausting to be called on to personally brain fight every single fucker who takes a position opposite yours.
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Mar 9, 2017 20:28
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Covok posted:Djanjo Unchained is an attempt by someone outside of the group to write and create a revenge fantasy for people of a group. Same thing with Inglorious Bastards, really. Tarantino makes exploitation cinema, but going one step further, he does it while not being of the exploited class.
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Mar 9, 2017 20:30
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hi what is this argument even about?
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Mar 9, 2017 20:31
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This https://storify.com/flatvurm/jessica-price-on-toxicity-in-geek-spaces and this https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/839754651230601216
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Mar 9, 2017 20:33
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