|
McSpanky posted:Goddamn man, if this is your idea of bland unsettling violence maybe you need to take a step back and reassess some things. I am an incredibly squeamish person who can't watch horror films. I was not once tempted to turn away from Logan.
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2017 19:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 05:58 |
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:Child soldiers are a horrifying idea. That nobody blinks at scenes of child soldiers killing people is also disturbing. "Child soldiers" is a de-normalization of violence, whereas actual violence is the part of more mundane childhood already. In my case, it was simply older children.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:ruddiger, you're not the only one doing this, but c'mon. I get people are amped up by this argument, but six days is maybe a little short for openly posting about the ending of Logan and the existence of X-24 when you're not even in the movie-specific thread. Sorry about that. I even had the spoilers in the original post. My bad. Also, Bravest, how were you not disgusted at the first ten minutes of Logan? It starts out with horrific violence, or were you desensitized to it since it happens to a bunch of "bad guy" mexicans therefore you can safely distance yourself from it?
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2017 19:51
|
|
|
Never watch the original Robocop. It normalizes violence. I mean, drat, it even had a cartoon and was marketed specifically towards kids!
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2017 21:30
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:The movie doesn't treat the idea very horrifically. As Megaman's Jockstrap pointed out, nobody blinks at a child shooting someone through the skull, because they feel it's justified and proper. That's how banal Logan makes violence. It's the kid who spent most of the movie having a running argument about good violence, bad violence, and how even good violence is hard on you. They literally say it out loud and most of the movie is about how violence today comes back to get you and cause more violence tomorrow. Which is leaving aside the fact that it is both a very visceral scene, I'm pretty sure they up the sound level on the gunshot so it's louder than any of the others in the movie, and also clearly a symbolic wrap up of James Howlett's arc throughout the movie. I mean, if you're going to argue that the movie glorifies violence, at least use the masses of near faceless mooks that get killed along the way.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2017 21:39
|
|
|
Wait so now we're not taking potshot at the movie being juvenile because it included a very meta action-figure marketed version of the hero, now we're saying Violence Bad? K, lemmie just rechalk the lines here.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2017 22:19
|
|
|
I'm Bravestoflamps I really really need to be smarter than you because of my childhood or something probably just give me this so I can calm down okay?
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2017 22:46
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:Wait so now we're not taking potshot at the movie being juvenile because it included a very meta action-figure marketed version of the hero, now we're saying Violence Bad? The action figure is a moment that sums up the movie well: the Death of an Action Figure. The palaver about Logan being about Wolverine confronting his own myth falls apart when you consider what his myth actually is: a violent, adolescent fantasy that doesn't qualify as mythic. Violence is so deep in the DNA of Logan that the child soldier holding a Wolverine action figure qualifies as a touching depiction of how a man becomes myth, apparently. Despite the talk of leaving behind violence like in the quotation of Shane, there's no alternative in the movie's imaginary landscape to nihilistic violence: the Midwest family sequence turns into another massacre, and Eden might be completely made up. The movie's violence is bad because it has a numbing effect on the audience. This leads to tons of goons being confused when pointed out that putting children killing in really violent ways on screen is kind of disgusting, objectively speaking. Nobody is disturbed by this spectacle because the movie lulls you into it. And when pointed out, people reveal some weird need to prove that it's totally okay and there's nothing odd about putting it on the screen in such a thoughtless manner. It's all violent spectacle for kids, apparently (except when it's supposed to be mature movie that escapes comic movie formula). BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Mar 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2017 23:00
|
|
|
I for one am offended and shocked that this R rated action movie is about how we cope with violence.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2017 23:17
|
|
|
Guess what Ryan Reynolds is announcing here https://twitter.com/VancityReynolds/status/839947701487796224 Atlanta's Zazie Beetz is playing Domino in Deadpool 2.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2017 23:40
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:Despite the talk of leaving behind violence like in the quotation of Shane, there's no alternative in the movie's imaginary landscape to nihilistic violence: [spoiler] Yes there is. They leave at the end, hoping for a better life. They just have to fight for that alternative.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 00:43
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:The action figure is a moment that sums up the movie well: the Death of an Action Figure. This defines the movie in the same way Citizen Kane is defined or summarized by "rosebud." The film is explicitly interested in exploring Logan's various identities, in his or other's perception, and engaging critically with all of them. At various times, he goes by Logan, James Howlett, the Wolverine, and finally Laura's father, and all are valid. Definitely, "juvenile violence" is an association with the character, but it's explicitly the villains who see Logan in these terms...hence why they build a literal evil doppelgänger that serves as the end villain, whose violence is not supposed to be awesome. I'll remind you that Logan's last words to Xavier are, "this wasn't me." Throughout the entire movie, Logan is at odds with how everyone else in the world views him, and those preconceptions about his character are centrally relevant. I mean, it's called Logan. It's obviously about exploring the various facets of the character. Calling it "the death of an action figure" ignores that it is also about the death of a man, and of a monster, and a father, a hero, etc. The nuance is that it is all of those things. That the cap on the end is the X-grave doesn't diminish that. If anything, the final identity that Logan accepts is being Laura's father, which to me is far more important.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 00:44
|
|
|
The MSJ posted:Guess what Ryan Reynolds is announcing here Down with this sickness...is that still a cool thing to say?
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 00:45
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:The action figure is a moment that sums up the movie well: the Death of an Action Figure. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 00:53
|
|
|
Gatts posted:Down with this sickness...is that still a cool thing to say? I'm certainly down with it. https://twitter.com/VancityReynolds/status/839959854714408961
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 01:05
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:I am an incredibly squeamish person who can't watch horror films. I bet the horror thread could recommend u somethin
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 01:11
|
|
|
The MSJ posted:Guess what Ryan Reynolds is announcing here I ain't watched Atlanta but this lady has fantastic hair
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 01:20
|
|
|
It would be nice if X-Men Apocalypse gave even a single clue as to what Apocalypse was interested in doing at a higher level than simply the sequence of events we see him carrying out. Like, maybe what's the game plan once he takes Xavier's power and runs the world as a single mind. Admittedly, it's impressive for managing to weigh down Oscar Isaac under enough prosthetics, costume, and audio manipulation that he doesn't steal the movie. Wouldn't have thought it possible. The MSJ posted:Atlanta's Zazie Beetz is playing Domino in Deadpool 2. No idea who Domino is, but that's a good show and she's good in it. BravestOfTheLamps posted:disgusting, objectively speaking Universalizing your own subjective reaction as objectively true and calling everyone who doesn't share it "weird" is a bit of a cop-out. One of the notable things in Logan, and you hit on this tangentially, is that while Laura is presented as being feral and kinda hosed-up, this is put on her being Logan's kid, not her mistreatment in the clinic where she was made. So when we get the scene of the other kids pounding the head merc into the ground, there's not a link between their violence and their mistreatment. Nor do we see the sort of personal dysfunction in the kids you get in other movies with child soldiers (Kick-rear end, Beasts of No Nation). So when the kids kill Pierce, there isn't the same explicit perversity as when Hit-Girl is getting revenge for her father's murder, or the waking nightmare that Agu lives in. Instead it's triumphant. But that's because the movie simply isn't about the value of letting kids be kids or hiding the violence from the world from them. It takes as a given that the children will grow up in a world of violence and conflict (the border wall, the corporate toughs pushing out the independent farmer). It's presented as appropriate that they learn to defend themselves. Their parents are complicit in the violent system that made them, and cannot be trusted to care for them. That's one of the points of the movie: the world is a fallen place, the previous generation is responsible for that, and we are putting a heavy burden on our children through our own evil. The triumph isn't, like, isn't it sweet that kids are killing people. It's that they're taking their future into their own hands, because ours have proven deeply untrustworthy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 01:30
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:Admittedly, it's impressive for managing to weigh down Oscar Isaac under enough prosthetics, costume, and audio manipulation that he doesn't steal the movie. Wouldn't have thought it possible. Of Apocalypse's sins (which are legion), that's one of the worst. God, that final battle was just so interminable. Reaction shot after reaction shot after reaction shot.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 01:36
|
|
|
Xealot posted:This defines the movie in the same way Citizen Kane is defined or summarized by "rosebud." I think that it's also worth noting that the movie also examines the different ideas of what The Wolverine is in addition to the different aspects of James Howlett, the man. For instance the Reavers and the children have very different views of what is to be admired in The Wolverine. The Reavers look at his black ops work and his unstoppable violence, and they see a hero. Meanwhile, the children base their views of what Wolverine is one the idealized and heroic version they know from the comic. And the nurse has a totally different idea of what Wolverine is, which seems to be simultaneously more and less close to the reality than either of the other ideas of The Wolverine.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 01:44
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:No idea who Domino is, but that's a good show and she's good in it. Mutant mercenary who can alter probability in her favor. That's one reason she's called Domino. The other one is because she resembles a domino block.  Cable, still yet to be cast, is her love interest.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:00
|
|
|
I forgot she was Chalk white. Have the usual corners of the internet burst into racist flame yet?
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:06
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:It would be nice if X-Men Apocalypse gave even a single clue as to what Apocalypse was interested in doing at a higher level than simply the sequence of events we see him carrying out. Like, maybe what's the game plan once he takes Xavier's power and runs the world as a single mind. I mean, there's the entire opening sequence, in which he is a god-king in Ancient Egypt, and seeks immortality much like thanos, he's a low-rent version of darkseid with approximately the same design and equally little characterisation because he is a Primal Evil or whatever
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:07
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:But that's because the movie simply isn't about the value of letting kids be kids or hiding the violence from the world from them. It takes as a given that the children will grow up in a world of violence and conflict (the border wall, the corporate toughs pushing out the independent farmer). It's presented as appropriate that they learn to defend themselves. Their parents are complicit in the violent system that made them, and cannot be trusted to care for them. That kind of leftist-leaning reading I can agree on, but the underlying problem is how banal the violence remains. That story would need a deeper disjunct. Laura's character exemplifies the problem, in how she turns from a feral child to a just a girl who didn't want to speak and really needs a daddy. It robs her character of what makes her interesting. The other kids are also supremely lame characters compared to Laura before Xavier's death. What they needed to do was own up to the movie's violence and never apologize for Laura being a ruthless feral survivor, which is the one good part of Wolverine's character. Like how in BvS Batman becomes good again but remains the same fascist vigilante. It's that kind of disjunct that they should've embraced..
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:14
|
|
|
ungulateman posted:I mean, there's the entire opening sequence, in which he is a god-king in Ancient Egypt, and seeks immortality Right, but if his goal is to just live forever, no need for him to control everyone. Trying to rule the planet is what keeps getting him killed. Darkseid is ideologically committed to super-fascism, as I understand it. It's entirely possible that's what Apocalypse is about, but it's never enunciated for him the way it is with Darkseid, the Anti-life Equation, etc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:16
|
|
|
Apocalypse could've been a really cool villain if they'd run with his whole Lovecraftian-elder-god-meets-crazed-eugenicist angle, but instead they just made him another generic blue guy, and on top of that he's constantly shot in ways that reinforce how small and unimposing he is.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:19
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:That kind of leftist-leaning reading I can agree on, but the underlying problem is how banal the violence remains. That story would need a deeper disjunct. Laura's character exemplifies the problem, in how she turns from a feral child to a just a girl who didn't want to speak and really needs a daddy. It robs her character of what makes her interesting. The other kids are also supremely lame characters compared to Laura before Xavier's death. What they needed to do was own up to the movie's violence and never apologize for Laura being a ruthless feral survivor, which is the one good part of Wolverine's character. Like how in BvS Batman becomes good again but remains the same fascist vigilante. It's that kind of disjunct that they should've embraced.. Not hard for me to agree that, as much as I like Logan, it's not as good as Batman v Superman. And, yeah, I agree the child characters could be better developed. If you wrote this movie as just a standalone movie, without the franchise elements, it would be Laura's story, not Logan's. And the movie is at its weakest when it plays at being Laura's story instead of Logan or Xavier. Where I disagree is with the degree of damage this does to the movie, since, in the end, it is Wolverine's story, and its handling of Wolverine's violence is handled well.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:22
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:That kind of leftist-leaning reading I can agree on, but the underlying problem is how banal the violence remains. They literally compare the violence in the beginning of Logan to a horror movie with the Freddy Krueger line. I think if anything, it's a condemnation of the people in the audience who have become desensitized to violence (especially violence against minorities/women). You claim horror movies make you squeemish, yet can watch the horror scene in the first ten minutes of Logan complete with gory decapitations, dismemberments, and a stabbing through the bottom of someone's jaw and call it "banal."
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:29
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:and on top of that he's constantly shot in ways that reinforce how small and unimposing he is. The funny thing about that is because Isaac is relatively short (5'9" or so), they put him in lifts so big that he was practically walking on stilts. And yet he still looked like a blue dude, just a blue dude with a 40-pound suit of tubes and hoses and poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:35
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:Apocalypse could've been a really cool villain if they'd run with his whole Lovecraftian-elder-god-meets-crazed-eugenicist angle, but instead they just made him another generic blue guy, and on top of that he's constantly shot in ways that reinforce how small and unimposing he is. Yeah it really pretty sad how badly they whiffed on it all.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:43
|
|
|
The Dave posted:Yeah it really pretty sad how badly they whiffed on it all. I think I mentioned this a while back, but we re-watched the first X-Men a month or so ago, and it does not feel like Bryan Singer could have directed that and the colossal mess that is Apocalypse.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:46
|
|
|
ruddiger posted:They literally compare the violence in the beginning of Logan to a horror movie with the Freddy Krueger line. There's a difference between telling something is like a horror movie and showing that something is a horror movie. X-24's introduction is pretty much the closest it comes to that, and the staredown between him and Logan might fittingly be the high-point of the movie. Violence is as horrific as it's presented at. While objectively it's an incredibly violent movie, Logan is just not very uncomfortable or disturbing in its violence. Like the "20 seconds to comply" scene from Robocop strikes me as more uncomfortable than anything in Logan, and it's a loving hilarious scene. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Mar 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:47
|
|
|
The first X-Men works, at least partially, because it's really lean. It has a simple focus, the cast of characters is no bigger than it needs to be, there are no story beats that aren't required. Apocalypse is the exact opposite. The focus is simultaneously Mystique embracing her role, the kids stepping up to the plate, Xavier trying to repair his relationship with Magneto and redeem him, Magneto needing revenge, Wolverine showing up for some loving reason, and Apocalypse's plan. There's probably a couple I've forgotten. As a complimentary point, there are way too many characters, between the returning cast, the kids, the horsemen, the usual collection of evil scientists and bigots, Rose Byrne and more. And all of this requires way too many plot beats. The movie either needed to be a lot longer, or far simpler. For all of X3's faults, and they are many, it keeps peripheral characters on the periphery, and remembers to stick to the main narrative for the majority of its running time. Money is kind of the issue. The base cost of making a movie is pretty high, so studio heads seem to think cramming more stuff into the one movie is better, like buying at the margin. So you end up with films like Apocalypse of Age of Ultron or Spiderman 3 that have at least 3 plots crammed into them, any of which would have made a perfectly good focus. Meanwhile, movies like Logan or Deadpool are focused, and the takeaway is 'they had violence and swears'w
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 02:58
|
|
|
The first ten minutes of Logan play out exactly like a horror movie. Did you walk in to the movie late or are you just playing obtuse? and if you don't think the subject of violent carjacking can be the subject of a horror movie, I direct you to the 1986 movie The Hitcher. Not to mention the body horror element introduced in that scene with Logan's limpdick claw flaccidly going half mast. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Mar 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 03:11
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:Apocalypse could've been a really cool villain if they'd run with his whole Lovecraftian-elder-god-meets-crazed-eugenicist angle, but instead they just made him another generic blue guy, and on top of that he's constantly shot in ways that reinforce how small and unimposing he is. Should've gone with an Age of Apocalypse type design and mocapped him and made him Hulk/Kong sized (not new Kong). Wouldn't fix the movie of course but it's a start. And yeah the best way to portray him is as Nyarlathotep tutoring Mutant Mengele (Sinister).
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 03:51
|
|
|
DeimosRising posted:Should've gone with an Age of Apocalypse type design and mocapped him and made him Hulk/Kong sized (not new Kong). Wouldn't fix the movie of course but it's a start. Nothing would have fixed that godawful script. I appreciate that Fassbender finally had some meat on the bone to work with after sitting on the sidelines for most of Days of Future Past, but, jeez. The whole thing feels like Kinberg wrote a hundred different scenes completely independent from one another, and then awkwardly stitched them together. Edit: And I know Lawrence didn't want to do Apocalypse or DoFP, but man, in Apocalypse she just looks like she's praying for someone to wander into the shot and shoot her in the head.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 03:55
|
|
|
Yeah, Logan's violence is awesome, not horrific. It's grotesquerie is part of the power of what he's able to do to people. He's penetrating and castrating people at will. We're awed by it, not repulsed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 03:56
|
|
|
ruddiger posted:They literally compare the violence in the beginning of Logan to a horror movie with the Freddy Krueger line. One of the significant flaws of the movie is that the action sequences are so repetitive and dully choreographed your brain starts shutting down when Logan starts eviscerating 20 mooks in a line yet again. I can see how someone would call the violence banal, since it sure got boring halfway in. That, combined with the story and script, which were just a mix of clichés and poorly realized themes, made me struggle to keep my interest up. After it became a Logan / Laura movie, the rest became a redundant slog towards the credits. But I suppose that was the intent of the filmmakers since they can do nothing wrong, right? - The film is rated R! Thank goodness för Patrick Stewart. He single-handedly redeemed the for me. Jackman did what he could with a fundamentally uninteresting character. Edit; I was sitting beside a woman who freaked out constantly because of the violence. Even she seemed to become numb to it towards the end. Renoistic fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Mar 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 06:31
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:Apocalypse could've been a really cool villain if they'd run with his whole Lovecraftian-elder-god-meets-crazed-eugenicist angle, but instead they just made him another generic blue guy, and on top of that he's constantly shot in ways that reinforce how small and unimposing he is. Another big problem is they decided to have a lot of his characterization come in the form of long and often circular speeches without really having anyone in those scenes to bounce off, so they ended up trying to break up the visual monotony of those scenes mainly by cutting to a lot of completely neutral reaction shots from the Horsemen he collects. Each of them gets a scene or two of introduction before Apocalypse inducts them, but as soon as they're on board with his deal, their role is to stand around conveying absolutely nothing until the final battle rolls around. The greatest feat my man Apocalypse managed in that movie was surrounding himself with characters somehow even less interesting than himself
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 07:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 05:58 |
|
|
DeimosRising posted:I ain't watched Atlanta but this lady has fantastic hair She's gonna turn down the role when they ask her to tame that wild thing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2017 13:22
|
|
