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Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
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| Jeremy Corbyn |
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95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
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53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
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20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
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9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
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7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
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105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
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28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
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193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
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Can't be denied that we had a pretty sweet deal in the EU and the French and the Germans at least seemed keen enough on us staying in that I reckon we could've gotten even more out of them. It's foolish to walk away from a bargain like that.
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Mar 11, 2017 13:10
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Wheat Loaf posted:The thing is that going into the referendum, the overwhelming majority of voters on both sides had already made up their minds anyway. I think that if you had held the vote on day one, it would have been more or less the same as it was on 23 June. I imagine that the number of people whose minds were changed by the campaign was negligible. See, this is interesting, because I had idly considered this and come to the opposite conclusion - based on nothing more than unfounded speculation of course. If Cameron had said "we're having the referendum, and it's tomorrow, GO!", I felt like more people would have gone "aaah what already right ok what's the deal" and ended up voting Remain just because it's the status quo - no time for anyone to make any kind of reassuring noises about Leaving being ok. Or for the idea to develop that this might actually be happening. But your version is interesting, and I wonder if the effect would have been more like "don't like the EU, vote leave", no time to worry it'll actually happen.
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Mar 11, 2017 13:13
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HJB posted:Oh if only those seventeen million racist bigoted clueless morons would admit they were racist bigoted clueless morons, we wouldn't be in this mess right now.
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Mar 11, 2017 13:17
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Wheat Loaf posted:The thing is that going into the referendum, the overwhelming majority of voters on both sides had already made up their minds anyway. I think that if you had held the vote on day one, it would have been more or less the same as it was on 23 June. I imagine that the number of people whose minds were changed by the campaign was negligible.
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Mar 11, 2017 13:34
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If you read the Dominic Cummings thing you will see that the leave campaign picked up support along the way to emerge triumphant and I expect the polls duriny the course of the campaigns reflected that.
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Mar 11, 2017 13:40
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Maybe. Maybe I'm completely wrong. That's my impression of it but I could well be in a bubble. Perhaps it's like general elections: oppositions never win elections; governments lose them. I think the only big exception is 1945 but that was a unique case (it's really interesting to read some contemporary accounts of people saying, "I voted Labour, but I want Churchill as prime minister.")
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Mar 11, 2017 13:42
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Imagine having the open goal of Michael Gove as your official opposition and somehow loving it up with mixed messages about immigration that pleased nobody, a through-government propaganda campaign with the same ugliness as the Iraq War days, and threatening to attack the poor for voting wrong unless they somehow get rid of you. loving shameful.
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Mar 11, 2017 13:45
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Wheat Loaf posted:I think the only big exception is 1945 but that was a unique case (it's really interesting to read some contemporary accounts of people saying, "I voted Labour, but I want Churchill as prime minister.")
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Mar 11, 2017 13:46
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Wheat Loaf posted:Maybe. Maybe I'm completely wrong. That's my impression of it but I could well be in a bubble. I think leave timed it just right in terms of the crescendo but there were a few evemts or announcements that made remain wobble. I think the most shocking thing about remain campaign was the team was so bad. I think it was seen as a lock so frighteningly junior nobody ppl like serial failure will straw could cut their teeth. They should have just put ken Clarke front and centre. The guy had a book to sell after all.
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Mar 11, 2017 13:59
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jBrereton posted:I dunno, the '51 election was also pretty special, with a Labour majority of the public vote but a Tory victory due to FPTP. Yes, I suppose that sometimes happens. I think that's a shortcoming of the system. For instance, I think it's a bit silly that UKIP had four million votes at the last election and came out of it with one seat, while the SNP got 56 on a quarter of that. I think that seems unfair regardless of who's benefiting or losing out from it. If we had had a proportional system last time around, the government now would probably be Conservatives/UKIP/DUP coalition instead of just the Conservatives, which would have been more reflective of the votes cast.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:01
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Breath Ray posted:I think leave timed it just right in terms of the crescendo but there were a few evemts or announcements that made remain wobble. I think the most shocking thing about remain campaign was the team was so bad. I think it was seen as a lock so frighteningly junior nobody ppl like serial failure will straw could cut their teeth. They should have just put ken Clarke front and centre. The guy had a book to sell after all. What If: Cameron had managed to get Jeremy Clarkson as a leading Remain spokesman? 
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Mar 11, 2017 14:01
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Wheat Loaf posted:Yes, I suppose that sometimes happens.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:04
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Wheat Loaf posted:What If: Cameron had managed to get Jeremy Clarkson as a leading Remain spokesman? You know what? Based on viewership and likelihood to influence, I'm willing to bet Clarkson's pro-EU columns in the Sun and the Times threw way more people to Remain than Corbyn's appearance on a Channel 4 comedy show.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:05
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goddamnedtwisto posted:You know what? Based on viewership and likelihood to influence, I'm willing to bet Clarkson's pro-EU columns in the Sun and the Times threw way more people to Remain than Corbyn's appearance on a Channel 4 comedy show. It's more conjecture on my part and I don't think the idea would actually work because: a) Clarkson is an rear end in a top hat and I don't think even people who say "The PC police want to shut him up because he's just saying what everyone's thinking!" take him too seriously as a commentator and they'd probably turn on him pretty sharpish if ended up a pro-Remain spokesman; b) Clarkson is probably too pro-EU for even the majority of people who voted Remain based on his advocacy for the EU becoming a federal super-state with a single EU army; and c) There would probably be enough people who'd think, "I don't want to be on the same side as a RACIST," and abstain to cancel out the negligible number of people Clarkson would win for Remain. Remember when Prince William made that speech where he implied (about as openly as it's politically possible for a member of the royal family to manage) that leaving the EU would be a mistake? Go back and look at the front pages of the Daily Express in the fortnight after that; all kinds of stuff about how he's going bald and generally trying to make him look ignorant. I reckon it would be the same with Clarkson. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Mar 11, 2017 |
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Mar 11, 2017 14:11
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I saw a Daily Mail today and its page after page about how poo poo the Government is. Apparently the Tories have introduced some sort of death tax, Justine Greening is bad for cutting school fundng and big businesses are being allowed to get away with not paying their taxes. Plus, a big Peter Oborne column on how Theresa May must disown George Osborne for being agreedy bastard.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:12
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Paxman posted:I saw a Daily Mail today and its page after page about how poo poo the Government is. Apparently the Tories have introduced some sort of death tax, Justine Greening is bad for cutting school fundng and big businesses are being allowed to get away with not paying their taxes. Plus, a big Peter Oborne column on how Theresa May must disown George Osborne for being agreedy bastard. The Mail hated Thatcher too, and pretty much every woman in a position of power or fame that isn't one of their columnists.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:15
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jBrereton posted:Imagine having the open goal of Michael Gove as your official opposition and somehow loving it up with mixed messages about immigration that pleased nobody, a through-government propaganda campaign with the same ugliness as the Iraq War days, and threatening to attack the poor for voting wrong unless they somehow get rid of you. should have just lied non-stop imo
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Mar 11, 2017 14:19
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Paxman posted:I saw a Daily Mail today and its page after page about how poo poo the Government is. Apparently the Tories have introduced some sort of death tax, Justine Greening is bad for cutting school fundng and big businesses are being allowed to get away with not paying their taxes. Plus, a big Peter Oborne column on how Theresa May must disown George Osborne for being agreedy bastard. 
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Mar 11, 2017 14:27
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Jose posted:should have just lied non-stop imo
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Mar 11, 2017 14:28
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Seaside Loafer posted:Did something or some somethings really bad happen in the area around 2015/16? Big factory close or hospital blow up or something? 5 years of austerity? jabby posted:He's already been blamed for the rise in NIC, when are you going to agree with that? Wait, how? Wheat Loaf posted:The thing is that going into the referendum, the overwhelming majority of voters on both sides had already made up their minds anyway. I think that if you had held the vote on day one, it would have been more or less the same as it was on 23 June. I imagine that the number of people whose minds were changed by the campaign was negligible. I really don't think most people made up their mind, or if they had made up their mind they were flexible. From personal experience I'd say about half of friends and family, once the campaigning was underway, were open to suggestions made by things like the boris bus. The bizarre thing is that economics has stopped mattering to all these people now they've won, because I remember the economic pros-and-cons were a huge part of discussing it with people I'd assumed were going to vote status-quo on inertia.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:33
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Wheat Loaf posted:Can't be denied that we had a pretty sweet deal in the EU and the French and the Germans at least seemed keen enough on us staying in that I reckon we could've gotten even more out of them. It's foolish to walk away from a bargain like that. Britain doesn't have a sweet deal with the EU, we are the 2nd biggest net contributor to the EU after the Germans. Not that that is a bad thing as the only odd countries on the list of net receivers are Belgium and Luxembourg, the rest are mainly ex-Warsaw pact countries that need the sort of boost that Ireland needed to become a net contributor.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:36
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Cameron should have refused to accept the result of the referendum like some African dictator imo
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Mar 11, 2017 14:36
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Foxtrot_13 posted:Britain doesn't have a sweet deal with the EU, we are the 2nd biggest net contributor to the EU after the Germans. Not that that is a bad thing as the only odd countries on the list of net receivers are Belgium and Luxembourg, the rest are mainly ex-Warsaw pact countries that need the sort of boost that Ireland needed to become a net contributor. Nah, we were an incredibly special snowflake. Contributions don't detract from all the special concessions we got out of the EU. Which comes back to "the right wing is never happy", because those weren't good enough so long as we had to tolerate the existence of foreigners on our sceptered isle. spectralent fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Mar 11, 2017 |
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Mar 11, 2017 14:40
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Alternatively he shouldn't have held one because do you really need to sort out internal party discipline when you don't end up with the hung parliament most people predicted? No.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:40
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spectralent posted:Nah, we were an incredibly special snowflake. Contributions don't detract from all the special concessions we got out of the EU.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:43
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I'm somewhat hopeful the insane expectations for brexit are going to backfire horribly and discredit the reactionary right to the extent the financial crash discredited neoliberalism, but on the other hand that thing about the right never being happy.jBrereton posted:Alternatively he shouldn't have held one because do you really need to sort out internal party discipline when you don't end up with the hung parliament most people predicted? No. I'm still pissed he just swanned off after. jBrereton posted:You say "we" but it was mainly concessions for the ~ruling classes~ like the complete breakdown in working times (which the EU apparently no longer gives a poo poo about anywhere, given recent history) which do not in any sense benefit the general public. Yeah, but when the press complained about stuff they sure as hell weren't complaining about a lack of support for marginalised communities. The joke of anti-EU coverage is that 90% of it was fake stuff or even stuff we already had.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:46
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At the same time, I think the UK leaving will potentially be good for the EU on the whole. You can't reasonably have an organisation with 27 members and make so many special provisions for one of them (see also: the response to the issues in Greece et al.).
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Mar 11, 2017 14:46
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jBrereton posted:Alternatively he shouldn't have held one because do you really need to sort out internal party discipline when you don't end up with the hung parliament most people predicted? No.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:46
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spectralent posted:Wait, how? Prominent Telegraph piece saying Corbyn's terrible opposition is the only reason the Tories decided they could raise taxes, so it's all his fault. Pretty sure I've seen something similar in the Guardian too.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:47
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By the same token, I think it would be a bad idea to leave the ECHR because, if you look back particularly over a lot of the cases that arose from the Troubles, it's clear that the European Court of Human Rights has traditionally (not always, but nine times out of ten) been very generous to us.
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Mar 11, 2017 14:56
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spectralent posted:Yeah, but when the press complained about stuff they sure as hell weren't complaining about a lack of support for marginalised communities. The joke of anti-EU coverage is that 90% of it was fake stuff or even stuff we already had. I still love that there's a page dedicated to refuting the myths about the EU printed in British tabloids, and that while some of them are misrepresentation of actual things, a lot of them are just refuted with "this was never anything, we don't know what they're talking about".
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Mar 11, 2017 14:57
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Bobstar posted:I still love that there's a page dedicated to refuting the myths about the EU printed in British tabloids, and that while some of them are misrepresentation of actual things, a lot of them are just refuted with "this was never anything, we don't know what they're talking about". Link?
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Mar 11, 2017 14:59
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http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ See the one about Darts for an example of the answer being "er...no" Edit: there are also amusingly many about cheese. Bobstar fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Mar 11, 2017 |
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Mar 11, 2017 15:03
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Wheat Loaf posted:At the same time, I think the UK leaving will potentially be good for the EU on the whole. You can't reasonably have an organisation with 27 members and make so many special provisions for one of them (see also: the response to the issues in Greece et al.). This myth of the UK as a special case, for both leavers and remainers, was stupid.
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Mar 11, 2017 15:06
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Bobstar posted:http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
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Mar 11, 2017 15:08
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Wheat Loaf posted:At the same time, I think the UK leaving will potentially be good for the EU on the whole. You can't reasonably have an organisation with 27 members and make so many special provisions for one of them (see also: the response to the issues in Greece et al.). I think we've blazed a trail and the eu in its current form will be a distant memory in 10 years' Time
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Mar 11, 2017 15:11
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Breath Ray posted:I think we've blazed a trail and the eu in its current form will be a distant memory in 10 years' Time I'm not sure about the first part but the second part is probably true.
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Mar 11, 2017 15:19
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jBrereton posted:Every EU state has a unique thing going on. The UK used to be the one that dodged labour laws, now the French and some others are in on the act too. Environmental regs have clearly not been followed by the Germans and others. Eastern Europe can apparently do whatever the gently caress it wants wrt social policy because the EU doesn't care anymore. There is a lot of tax dodging of various kinds going on, some with the EU's blessing, like in Greece if you're rich, some without, like in Greece if you're poor. State Aid law is also apparently randomly enforced. The UK had an opt-out on schengen, monetary union, the charter of fundamental rights, and AFSJ. Yes, three other states were with us on some of those, but the only other state with four was Denmark. We were pretty snowflakey.
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Mar 11, 2017 15:20
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Wheat Loaf posted:I'm not sure about the first part but the second part is probably true. We're going in an unexpected direction while on fire. It fits.
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Mar 11, 2017 15:31
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I think the rebate was pretty unique
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Mar 11, 2017 15:40
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