|
Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
|||
|---|---|---|---|
| Jeremy Corbyn |
|
95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
|
53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
|
20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
|
9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
|
7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
|
105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
|
28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
|
193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
|
Pissflaps posted:...because it isn't recognised as one. because no-one gives that much of a poo poo, not even the catalans, they only got a 42% turnout for their last referendum. If they manage to get a good majority then things might be different.
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 17:02 |
|
|
Fangz posted:Yes, see Taiwan, which is legally not separate from China and is recognised by no major nation. The PRC holds enough sway to prevent Taiwan gaining widespread legal recognition, but I think it's pretty hard to argue that it is not de facto independent given that it is entirely self governing and just about every major player has officially unofficial diplomatic relations with it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:13
|
|
|
The Taiwan comparison has to be the dumbest one yet.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:13
|
|
|
I think Scotland, and indeed Britain would love to have the high quality electronic and semi-conductor manufacturing industry of Taiwan. They make pretty much all the motherboards and memory for all the computers around the world.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:15
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:because no-one gives that much of a poo poo, not even the catalans, they only got a 42% turnout for their last referendum. No-one gives a poo poo? Is that right? Here's a million Catalans marching for independence  It's funny how your 'fundamental right' has become mired in turnout percentages and processes being 'recognised' as your ideas unravel.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:17
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/David_Cameron/status/595112367358406656
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:21
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:No-one gives a poo poo? Is that right? not really, self-determination requires a majority of people supporting it. A million catalans marching shows that there is widespread support for it, clearly, but until they either forcibly declare independence from spain and set up as an independent country, or get a good victory at the polls there is not much for the UN to support or even weigh in on, for now it's an internal issue especially as it's peaceful. But also as we know the UN is mired in politics and does not always effectively uphold the lofty goals which it aims to support. However, plenty of people around the world support Catalan independence. Also over a million people marched against Blair's war. Didn't stop it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:21
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:because no-one gives that much of a poo poo, not even the catalans, they only got a 42% turnout for their last referendum.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:24
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:practically speaking Taiwan is an independent country. Come on, the US relations with the place are pretty normalised. Practically speaking Taiwan is an important chit in the US-China frenemy relationship. Practically speaking it has no representation in the UN, anyone who recognises it faces immediate diplomatic penalties from the Chinese, and the Chinese reserve the right to invade it as a 'province in rebellion' at any time. US relations with Taiwan aren't normalised - it started with full recognition of the ROC and was *downgraded* when the world slowly opted to recognise the PRC. Self-determination is an ideal in international politics, that's true, but it's also an ideal balanced by the opposing ideal of 'territorial integrity'. In reality both usually end up as excuses used to justify decisions made according to national interests.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:24
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:not really, self-determination requires a majority of people supporting it. Interesting. Does this mean labour should oppose Brexit on the grounds that a majority of people didn't express their support for it ?
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:25
|
|
|
big scary monsters posted:Appealing to charters and declarations isn't really necessary when you can point to a much more fundamental rule of international relations: if you can get away with it then it is legal. Nepal's a sovereign nation. You mean Tibet. And that's a ridiculous comparison to make - Taiwan does because of the specific political situation after the Civil War and that's it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:28
|
|
|
LemonDrizzle posted:This is a really, really dumb interpretation of that figure. The last referendum had no legal standing and was not authorised by the Spanish government, so it was just a grandstanding exercise for the separatists. Unionist voters stayed at home because they regarded it as illegitimate, which is why Yes won overwhelmingly. You can't use the turnout as any indicator of the strength of feeling about the issue. Well yeah, I was being a little flippant with that comment. It's a tricky situation because Spain obviously do not want such a prosperous part of the country leaving. I'm confused as to what you are saying though. I know it's a very important issue in Spain and Catalonia and I feel that a referendum results for self-determination cannot be regarded as legitimate without the turnout being significantly higher than 50%. Are you saying that if the turnout would have been higher that No would have won?
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:28
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:Interesting. If I had called the referendum I would have required a 2/3rds majority of those voting to support it and maybe a 2/3rds turnout as well.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:31
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:If I had called the referendum I would have required a 2/3rds majority of those voting to support it and maybe a 2/3rds turnout as well. But it didn't. It had a simple majority requirement with only a minority of voters voting for the winning outcome. Are your principles - that a majority of possible voters should be necessary - at odds with the labour leadership's?
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:33
|
|
|
big scary monsters posted:The PRC holds enough sway to prevent Taiwan gaining widespread legal recognition, but I think it's pretty hard to argue that it is not de facto independent given that it is entirely self governing and just about every major player has officially unofficial diplomatic relations with it. Yeah but we're saying something about "if you can get away with it then it's legal". But it's not legal, the status of Taiwan is fundamentally ambiguous, full legal independence for Taiwan is seen by China as an act of war. And without US support, I suspect Taiwanese independence would collapse quite rapidly. The process seems to be the opposite of what is being suggested - that there's a legal principle for self-determination that can only be thwarted by the actions of powerful interests. No, the legal principles, just like facts on the ground, *are* the actions of powerful interests.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:35
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:If I had called the referendum I would have required a 2/3rds majority of those voting to support it and maybe a 2/3rds turnout as well.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:36
|
|
|
I think that everyone knew and agreed to the terms of the referendum going into it, so to complain about them afterwards when you don't get the result you want is not helpful. the public voted for brexit, and the public gets what the public wants. doesn't bother me, I don't live in the UK anyway and have no plans to.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:37
|
|
|
Taear posted:Nepal's a sovereign nation. You mean Tibet. Tibet is never getting Independence because it has the only clean fresh water source in china
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:37
|
|
|
jBrereton posted:OK so what happens when nobody votes "enough" either to remain in the EU or leave it, because it wasn't a yes/no vote, it was a stay/go vote? what?
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:38
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:I think that everyone knew and agreed to the terms of the referendum going into it, so to complain about them afterwards when you don't get the result you want is not helpful. So your 'fundamental right' now requires an absolute majority....unless it doesn't. You've served up a delicious steaming pile of nuance this morning. Thank you.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:41
|
|
|
jBrereton posted:OK so what happens when nobody votes "enough" either to remain in the EU or leave it, because it wasn't a yes/no vote, it was a stay/go vote? The status quo remains. This is what happened with the 1979 Scottish devolution referendum. 51.62% of the people who voted voted for devolution but they needed 40% of the total electorate to vote Yes to devolution, & with 64% turnout that didn't happen, so the status quo remained.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:42
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:The status quo remains. This is what happened with the 1979 Scottish devolution referendum. 51.62% of the people who voted voted for devolution but they needed 40% of the total electorate to vote Yes to devolution, & with 64% turnout that didn't happen, so the status quo remained.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:46
|
|
|
Incidentally I am going to be surprised if the government lets the SNP have its referendum before autumn 2019.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:47
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:The status quo remains. This is what happened with the 1979 Scottish devolution referendum. 51.62% of the people who voted voted for devolution but they needed 40% of the total electorate to vote Yes to devolution, & with 64% turnout that didn't happen, so the status quo remained. That sounds about right.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:47
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:Are you saying that if the turnout would have been higher that No would have won?
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:48
|
|
|
Pissflaps posted:So your 'fundamental right' now requires an absolute majority....unless it doesn't. it is a fundamental right to decide on self-determination, and usually that is through a plebiscite which for such a matter require a majority. how is this confusing for you?
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:53
|
|
|
LemonDrizzle posted:No, I said that you can't judge strength of feeling from the turnout and that if voters on one side of the debate hadn't boycotted the unofficial referendum, the other side wouldn't have picked up 80% of the vote. I made no prediction about which side would win an official referendum. oh yeah that's true, well I wasn't being entirely serious with my comment of no-one gives a poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:54
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:it is a fundamental right to decide on self-determination
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:55
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:So the UK will get Brexit anyway but 20 years later and in a form that nobody is particularly thrilled with. People were pretty thrilled about the Scottish Parliament in 1997 when the referendum happened. 74.29% voted for the Parliament, 63.48 voted for tax varying powers, though admittedly they ended up being quite poo poo powers for the first 15 years of it's existence. But the Scottish Parliament itself? I was still in school when the referendum went down but I remember the general excitement surrounding it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:56
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:oh yeah that's true, well I wasn't being entirely serious with my comment of no-one gives a poo poo. Don't worry nobody will have made the mistake of taking you seriously you're all over the place.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:57
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:it is a fundamental right to decide on self-determination, and usually that is through a plebiscite which for such a matter require a majority. You say 'usual'; could you give an example?
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:57
|
|
|
jBrereton posted:Hey remember when the British and French landed in Vietnam in '45 to stop their self-determination, because fundamental rights don't actually exist? I'm an optimist when it comes to human nature and sadly humans are relentlessly lovely and love to murder and oppress each other. I personally think that humanity is capable of so much more, but apparently those who believe in the oneness of life on this earth don't often make it to positions of power at the top of militaries or government.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 13:59
|
|
|
Rustybear posted:You say 'usual'; could you give an example? Liberia, Norway, Iceland, Samoa, Algeria, Malta, Bahrain, Djibouti, Micronesia, Slovenia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Estonia, Georgia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine (1991), Uzbekistan, Macedonia, Eritrea, Moldova, Croatia. Those are some of the ones that got independence after referenda, there are plenty of others that had referendum and voted no.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 14:05
|
|
|
big scary monsters posted:These really are exciting times in UK politics. This must have been how people felt under Cromwell: bewildered and terrified. Not really, by the time he became Lord Protector and was running the joint things had mostly stabilised. You're thinking more of the Rump. (Also, leaving aside Ireland, Cromwell was probably one of our better rules by and large)
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 14:11
|
|
|
Jeremy Corbyn 39 mins · The 2014 Scottish Independence referendum was billed as a once in a generation event. The result was decisive and there is no appetite for another referendum. Labour believes it would be wrong to hold another so soon and Scottish Labour will oppose it in the Scottish parliament. If, however, the Scottish parliament votes for one, Labour will not block that democratic decision at Westminster. If there is another referendum, Labour will oppose independence because it is not in the interests of any part of the country to break up the UK.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 14:12
|
|
|
Sorry man, that is not a proper link to what Jeremy actually said and is therefore completely false and bad for Corbyn.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 14:15
|
|
|
Taear posted:Nepal's a sovereign nation. You mean Tibet. Fangz posted:No, the legal principles, just like facts on the ground, *are* the actions of powerful interests. big scary monsters fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Mar 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 14:16
|
|
|
Dead Goon posted:Sorry man, that is not a proper link to what Jeremy actually said and is therefore completely false and bad for Corbyn. https://www.facebook.com/JeremyCorbynMP/posts/10155152094518872
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 14:17
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:Jeremy Corbyn This makes sense but he didn't explain it like this yesterday. I don't think his position has changed, I think he's not great at doing interviews.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 14:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 17:02 |
|
|
So this week is trump's first true chance to completely destroy the global economy as the US is about to hit its debt ceiling and while campaigning he said the US should just default lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 14:23
|
|