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Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
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| Jeremy Corbyn |
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95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
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53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
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20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
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9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
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7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
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105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
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28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
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193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
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While it's not a solution now, the House of Lords can't be relied upon as a real check for all the reasons they aren't going to do anything now. Agitate, organise, mobilise. It's the only real defense.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:27
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mfcrocker posted:How do you imagine this goes? Because I imagine it goes like this: If the Tories did it on reducing the age of consent, then I think Labour would be justified on doing it on quite possibly the biggest constitutional issue of a generation. Like, even if you saw the EU citizens amendment as disposable, there is nothing wrong with the Lords insisting on parliamentary sovereignty. After all, didn't we vote to Take Back Control™?
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Mar 13, 2017 23:28
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mfcrocker posted:Seriously TT, you seem to not actually understand how Parliament works. Student politics
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Mar 13, 2017 23:30
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namesake posted:While it's not a solution now, the House of Lords can't be relied upon as a real check for all the reasons they aren't going to do anything now. I honestly believe there's nothing anyone, legislative body or otherwise, can do to stop a Brexit harder than Pissflaps is for JCorbz. What we need to do is get loud and sway public opinion against this poo poo. TinTower posted:If the Tories did it on reducing the age of consent, then I think Labour would be justified on doing it on quite possibly the biggest constitutional issue of a generation. THE TORIES ARE LITERALLY NEVER ACCEPTING THIS AMENDMENT, WHAT ABOUT THIS IS HARD. A 100+ peer defeat is loving huge and the government told them to gently caress off and pass it anyway. Lords will do nothing but hold up the bill for a year and sign their own death warrant, along with Labour and the Lib Dems' with it.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:30
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Pissflaps posted:'Brexit shows why leaving a political and fiscal union with your most important trading partner is a bad idea....so this is why Scotland should leave the UK'. The nation of scotland voted strongly against leaving the EU, and then they watched as england and wales held the gun to their temple and squeezed the trigger. Less than two years beforehand, they were (falsely) told that remaining in the UK was the only way to stay in the EU. Why shouldn't they want to go their own way, when their "most important trading partner" dragged them out of a union they didn't want to leave, is headed for WTO rules, a deep recession, and a loving from the EU that will make a brazzers flick look like an episode of miss marple. Brexit is going to be really poo poo. Why the hell should scotland remain for it? I mean, I would imagine, given your supposed preference for remaining in the EU, that you would be glad at least some of the residents of this blighted isle are actually making a decent, viable shot at getting back in. Maybe you could surprise the thread by taking an active role in politics- you would be a shoe-in for tory councillor in a year or two, max! They will guide you through the process, make sure you know the new dogwhistle terms for out of date phrases like "urban ferals"- a few years of mindlessly vomiting out the kind of shite you talk on here, and you will be an MP in no time! You could glare at corbyn in person and make booing noises and everything!
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Mar 13, 2017 23:30
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DesperateDan posted:The nation of scotland voted strongly against leaving the EU, and then they watched as england and wales held the gun to their temple and squeezed the trigger. Less than two years beforehand, they were (falsely) told that remaining in the UK was the only way to stay in the EU.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:32
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jBrereton posted:What was false about it? The whole part about being dragged out of the EU against their will. Still, over four centuries, we've gone from Parliament committing regicide to ensure its sovereignty to Parliament ceding its own sovereignty because a couple of hundred people are scared they'll lose their jobs-for-life.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:38
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TinTower posted:The Lords is a pisspoor revising chamber if it refuses to revise lovely legislation.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:39
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TinTower posted:They keep putting the amendment back in. Again and again and again, if needs be. Just checking, but you realise the Lords can only do this once more before parliament can bypass them? The only thing reasonably in their power is to delay the bill by a maximum of a year, but I don't think that's in anyone's interests. Both the EU and the UK want to end the uncertainty as soon as possible.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:41
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forkboy84 posted:Not the question though TinTower. How does a years delay before the inevitable actually benefit anything? You acknowledge that the Lords can't stop the Commons from doing what it wants, simply delay it, I assume? So what comes from it? The possibility to elect a government that will stop Throwing-Ourselves-Off-The-Cliff Brexit before the timer runs out.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:41
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TinTower posted:The whole part about being dragged out of the EU against their will.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:41
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Prince John posted:Just checking, but you realise the Lords can only do this once more before parliament can bypass them? Ping-pong is theoretically infinite. The government would have to wait for a new session of Parliament. jBrereton posted:OK but that doesn't negate them not being in the EU after independence either in 2014 or 2019. SNP: We want independence please. Tories: You can only stay in the EU if you vote to stay in the UK. Voters: Okay, then. Tories: nvm lol e: Nice to see Labour waving the white flag after only two hours. https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/841389197005053953
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Mar 13, 2017 23:43
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TinTower posted:The possibility to elect a government that will stop Throwing-Ourselves-Off-The-Cliff Brexit before the timer runs out. So you think that once Article 50 is enacted a new government would be able to put to put brakes on it? Who would this new government be? You think the Liberal Democrats can be the largest party in Westminster? I admire your optimism but I'm not sure it's particularly realistic. Would be happy to be wrong.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:43
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forkboy84 posted:So you think that once Article 50 is enacted a new government would be able to put to put brakes on it? Who would this new government be? You think the Liberal Democrats can be the largest party in Westminster? I admire your optimism but I'm not sure it's particularly realistic. Would be happy to be wrong. Well, Article 50 is revokable until the day of departure. There is also the possibility of a new government only seeking a Brexit that keeps us in the EEA, for example.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:46
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TinTower posted:The possibility to elect a government that will stop Throwing-Ourselves-Off-The-Cliff Brexit before the timer runs out. Forgot the next election is in 1 year, and not 3
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Mar 13, 2017 23:46
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TinTower posted:Ping-pong is theoretically infinite. The government would have to wait for a new session of Parliament. So... in 2 months?
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Mar 13, 2017 23:46
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If they delay the thing until March 2020 it makes no difference, because the ge will be in May
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Mar 13, 2017 23:47
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mfcrocker posted:So... in 2 months? It requires a year after the first Second Reading. Namtab posted:If they delay the thing until March 2020 it makes no difference, because the ge will be in May The civil service would literally revolt if the government made any moves after the dissolution of Parliament (which tends to take place around this time of the year in election years).
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Mar 13, 2017 23:50
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Article 50 is only reversible with unilateral consensus. Do you really think that the eu is gonna let us say "nah forget it" and go back to chill special snowflake status
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Mar 13, 2017 23:50
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Do you understand how the Parliament Act works? Because I don't understand why you think there'd be a general election between now and the Act being invoked.TinTower posted:It requires a year after the first Second Reading. Okay so it needs to be a year after Second Reading and in back-to-back sessions. So... 2018.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:51
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TinTower posted:Well, Article 50 is revokable until the day of departure. Staying in the EEA without any say in what it does is a very poo poo idea. And yes, Article 50 is revocable in a legal sense, but is there political will on the continent? I see you've also not answered who this mythical government who would revoke it would be led by.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:51
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There's no point in denying reality, Brexit is gonna happen. The best we can hope for is: - Guarantees for UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK - A non-poo poo trade deal - Passporting rights for London (or kiss the finance industry goodbye)
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Mar 13, 2017 23:51
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The Lib Dem is having a tantrum over Labour not bothering drag things out in impossible to win parliamentary battles. Given that the entire 2015 Tory manifesto that lead to Brexit was a positioning tool to another pathetic Liberal/Tory coalition I conclude this: GO gently caress YOURSELF!!!!!!
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Mar 13, 2017 23:51
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Pochoclo posted:There's no point in denying reality, Brexit is gonna happen. The best we can hope for is: Everything is hosed then.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:54
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Namtab posted:Article 50 is only reversible with unilateral consensus. Do you really think that the eu is gonna let us say "nah forget it" and go back to chill special snowflake status They wouldn't need to "let us". We can unilaterally revoke it. That wasn't even contested by the government in Miller v. SoSExEU. Pochoclo posted:There's no point in denying reality, Brexit is gonna happen. The best we can hope for is: It's a shame that Labour folded like a house of cards on this tonight, and indeed most times these issues have been put to Parliament. forkboy84 posted:Staying in the EEA without any say in what it does is a very poo poo idea. Indeed, it is a poo poo idea, but it's less poo poo than Turbo-hosed Brexit. If that government is a Lib Dem government, I'd be happy, but I'd be also happy with a Labour government who would ensure that our economy doesn't go off the cliff. Lord of the Llamas posted:Given that the entire 2015 Tory manifesto that lead to Brexit was a positioning tool to another pathetic Liberal/Tory coalition I conclude this: lol was it gently caress. The referendum was always a sop to UKIP floaters.
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Mar 13, 2017 23:54
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DesperateDan posted:The nation of scotland voted strongly against leaving the EU, and then they watched as england and wales held the gun to their temple and squeezed the trigger. Less than two years beforehand, they were (falsely) told that remaining in the UK was the only way to stay in the EU. Why shouldn't they want to go their own way, when their "most important trading partner" dragged them out of a union they didn't want to leave, is headed for WTO rules, a deep recession, and a loving from the EU that will make a brazzers flick look like an episode of miss marple. Brexit is going to be really poo poo. Why the hell should scotland remain for it? Wading through this bilge to address the points you clumsily made: voting No was the only option of the first referendum that would keep Scotland in the eu, it wasn't 'false', and I think Scottish independence is a bad idea for the same reasons why Brexit is a bad idea. Supporting the former while opposing the latter is inconsistent. Pissflaps fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 00:01
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TinTower posted:Indeed, it is a poo poo idea, but it's less poo poo than Turbo-hosed Brexit. Right, but who is leading it? Because Jeremy Corbyn lead Labour government won't stop it. (Never mind that a Jeremy Corbyn lead Labour Party seem extraordinarily unlikely to win a general election) So it comes back to the ol' Pissflaps question: Who do you think can replace him who can stop the rot? Especially bearing in mind even those on the Labour right seem to be coming around to the inevitability of Brexit now the referendum has been lost. Considering they'd have to both win over the membership and then the wider electorate, which opposing Brexit tooth & nail which will instantly cause some consternation in the PLP, who is this person? I'd like to be wrong, but a Labour PM who would stop Brexit in 2020 seems only marginally less likely than a Liberal Democrat led government. And still doesn't address that you also need political will from other European governments that does not exist as it stands.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:05
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I've heard good stuff about this Clive Lewis lad.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:11
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TinTower posted:lol was it gently caress. The referendum was always a sop to UKIP floaters.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:21
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jBrereton posted:What was false about it? It was more of a case of one side claiming "well you are technically out, but given you already abide by all the rules/regulations and it would be financially beneficial to the EU there's nothing really stopping you getting fast tracked" VS "only way to stay. they won't let you back. never ever. spain won't let you. because catalonia. Reasons. so there. vote remain in the uk! or NO EU for you!". Then, well, you know. Brexit, and now the best chance for scotland to be in the EU is to leave the rest of the woebegotten and beshitted UK. jBrereton posted:OK but that doesn't negate them not being in the EU after independence either in 2014 or 2019. It allows them take the popular democratic decision of their nation to rejoin the EU after a 2019 split. It's not inconceivable that scotland will be applying to rejoin before the kingdom of england, wales and norniron (or whatever it gets called) fully leave. Hell, I can see brussels using negotiations with scotland as leverage against the remnants of the UK- Verhofstadt in particular seems pretty sympathetic to scotland wanting to remain, and its another card they can use in an already stacked deck. The only real issue with things seems to be adoption of the euro, but I don't think that will be so much of a problem *insert farage plane crash poond crash graph here* for too long.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:23
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forkboy84 posted:Staying in the EEA without any say in what it does is a very poo poo idea. A thousand times better than being rapidly transitioned out of the EEA though And also would be in keeping with the manifesto the government was elected on. Cerv fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 00:23
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The idea that the Tories were presuming a continuation of the Coalition doesn't match up with their well-documented decapitation campaign against the Lib Dems. Doubly so the idea they'd ditch the referendum in a coalition. Because in recent history a party dropping a key election pledge due to entering coalition has never caused that party to undergo an electoral meltdown.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:24
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jBrereton posted:The only reason that "ukip floaters" were even a concern is because the Tories presumed a hung parliament and held a referendum for the sake of internal party discipline (which they had no reason to after the LDs got utterly crushed).
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Mar 14, 2017 00:28
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Only the Lib Dems would have provided certainty for our EU citizens by delaying the start of negotiations for as long as possible.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:29
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LemonDrizzle posted:there's every chance the nutters would've brought him down if he hadn't given them a referendum.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:30
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DesperateDan posted:It was more of a case of one side claiming "well you are technically out, but given you already abide by all the rules/regulations and it would be financially beneficial to the EU there's nothing really stopping you getting fast tracked" VS "only way to stay. they won't let you back. never ever. spain won't let you. because catalonia. Reasons. so there. vote remain in the uk! or NO EU for you!". quote:It allows them take the popular democratic decision of their nation to rejoin the EU after a 2019 split. It's not inconceivable that scotland will be applying to rejoin before the kingdom of england, wales and norniron (or whatever it gets called) fully leave.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:30
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TinTower posted:The idea that the Tories were presuming a continuation of the Coalition doesn't match up with their well-documented decapitation campaign against the Lib Dems. They did pursue a decapitation strategy but also seemed surprised it actually worked. It seems silly now but in the run up to 2015 everyone thought Labour and the Tories would be neck and neck at the election, leading to another hung Parliament. Though I also think Cameron expected to just be able to hold and win a referendum on the grounds that he's David loving Cameron and obviously everyone would vote how he told them
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Mar 14, 2017 00:31
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LemonDrizzle posted:Seems like the causality is the other way around - on Europe, Cameron's position was far weaker with a small majority than it was in the coalition because the bastards have already proven that they are willing and able to destroy or cripple weak Tory governments over Europe. During the coalition he could use Lib Dem votes to silence the brexiteers; without cover from the Lib Dems, there's every chance the nutters would've brought him down if he hadn't given them a referendum. TinTower posted:The idea that the Tories were presuming a continuation of the Coalition doesn't match up with their well-documented decapitation campaign against the Lib Dems.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:34
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Paxman posted:They did pursue a decapitation strategy but also seemed surprised it actually worked. It seems silly now but in the run up to 2015 everyone thought Labour and the Tories would be neck and neck at the election, leading to another hung Parliament
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Mar 14, 2017 00:36
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Paxman posted:They did pursue a decapitation strategy but also seemed surprised it actually worked. It seems silly now but in the run up to 2015 everyone thought Labour and the Tories would be neck and neck at the election, leading to another hung Parliament. After two successive referendum wins I'm convinced he thought himself invincible. The writing should have been on the wall after the Indyref when they managed to pull it out despite having been for the most part a horribly run campaign where they spent so much time playing catch up to a more unified and prepared opposition. When it came to the EU referendum they weren't prepared for the amount of money that the Leave campaigns had behind them, their reach and their unified nature. The Tories had complete control over when to call it, knowledge ahead of time of when they would call it, and still somehow were always playing catch up to the organisation of the leave groups. It was such a poo poo show. Even down to the loving timing. Whoever thought it would be smart to run a referendum shortly after regional elections deserves to have a special place in the histories of what went wrong.
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Mar 14, 2017 00:40
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