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Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
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| Jeremy Corbyn |
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95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
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53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
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20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
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9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
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7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
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105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
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28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
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193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
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learnincurve posted:The big problem you/remainers have is that in the average northern town, people's lives were completely unaffected by the drop in the value of the pound. Stuff like white goods and televisions are still the same price in Argos, wilcos haven't raised prices, market stalls haven't increased the prices on fruit and veg, milk is still being priced artificially low, rents haven't gone up, there hasn't been a mass exodus of employers from the UK. What is it, one bank pulled out and it turned out that 99% of their employees were European? The predicted economic cataclysm has in fact, not happened. Brexit hasn't happened yet. Also you noticed all the reduced portion sizes, right? Companies noticed that raising prices directly got themselves pilloried, and several have already reduced the amount of stuff they sell per unit to recoup losses to falling currency confidence. And, to specify, this is just falling currency confidence, which is a minor issue. Losing all our nice trade deals is going to gently caress the economy so hard, especially if we just crash out having failed to negotiate like the government is trying to hype everyone up for.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:16
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It makes it harder to argue for Brexit if one of the main remain arguments was that if we voted yes then we would all wake up in the morning to economic collapse. Sugar tax will make more of a difference to the poor than the impact the yes vote had. Leaving the EU opens us up for more trade deals. India, Pakistan, Australia, Canada, America, China and Russia have all said they would be open to negotiating trade deals with us. Short term pain for long term gain.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:26
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feedmegin posted:In addition to everyone else pointing out you don't know how the gently caress our constitution works and/or have time travelled from 1910, you realise the government could do exactly what it threatened to do back then and get the Queen to appoint as many pro-Brexit Lords as are necessary to vote things through? You may want to read a GCSE History textbook, just saying. if your history text book doesn't cover why no government has ever actually stuffed the Lords to that extent, you could have a look at the recent news reports from shortly after Cameron's lot won the last general election but were left with a minority in the upper house. it's not actually that easy to appoint lots in a short period of time. and would cause a lot of problems down the line.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:26
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learnincurve posted:It makes it harder to argue for Brexit if one of the main remain arguments was that if we voted yes then we would all wake up in the morning to economic collapse. Sugar tax will make more of a difference to the poor than the impact the yes vote had. Did you know that you can make loads of money by going down the casino and betting your life savings on Red? There's no downside with this plan I can see
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Mar 14, 2017 14:30
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learnincurve posted:It makes it harder to argue for Brexit if one of the main remain arguments was that if we voted yes then we would all wake up in the morning to economic collapse. Sugar tax will make more of a difference to the poor than the impact the yes vote had. As the old axiom goes- 'when distance doubles trade halves'. We've just hosed off our closest partner. Good luck with Empire 2.0.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:32
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learnincurve posted:Leaving the EU opens us up for more trade deals. India, Pakistan, Australia, Canada, America, China and Russia have all said they would be open to negotiating trade deals with us. Short term pain for long term gain.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:32
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learnincurve posted:It makes it harder to argue for Brexit if one of the main remain arguments was that if we voted yes then we would all wake up in the morning to economic collapse. Sugar tax will make more of a difference to the poor than the impact the yes vote had. So it's gone from "prove that leavers are racist" to "there's no economic cataclysm" to "wake up to economic collapse" Again, another reminder, brexit hasn't happened. Also, please give me a few sources where it was stated "we would all wake up in the morning to economic collapse" after the vote? Leaving the EU is fine if we had the government infrastructure to handle these negotiations, but we don't after 7 years of austerity, plus most deals take years. I can't see us getting any good trade deals rushing to put pacts in place within a 2 year timeframe by a government ministry that is underfunded, understaffed and underskilled.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:34
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haakman posted:As the old axiom goes- 'when distance doubles trade halves'.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:34
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jBrereton posted:Uh the US gets about twice as much in terms of exports and about a third more in overall trade as France (http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/), which you may recall is just down the chunnel. The USA has 5 times more population than France. Why aren't you comparing the USA to the whole of the EU?
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Mar 14, 2017 14:37
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I have to say I've found the attitude both of Labour and this thread on opposing the government on Article 50 a little baffling. "It's right that Labour whip for this legislation, voting against it would be a pointless act of symbolism. We'll improve it with amendments." "Oh well clearly those amendements were never going to get through anyway. Yes that was definitely enough time to debate them. Let's see what Lords have to say. " "Well of course it was a fine gesture but it would be pointless for Lords to block the government further, they'd only lose in a year's time. And it would make them unpopular." When exactly does the time come to oppose this hugely damaging Tory policy? Why would May moderate her attitude or negotiate with the Houses if they will roll over the second she gives them a nasty look? Delaying Brexit for a year would not be a pointless symbolic act, it's pretty much the only bargaining chip the opposition parties have. It would be a hugely embarrassing defeat for May personally - there's no way she'd even be in power in a year if she failed to negotiate with Lords on that. She'd be a laughing stock in Europe and you'd practically be able to hear the knives being sharpened on the Tory back benches. Like you can say the government will win eventually, and that's certainly true if they face no meaningful opposition whatsoever. But I'd rather see the attempt made, because doing absolutely nothing is definitely not going to improve matters. If May has to make concessions to stick to her timetable, that's a good thing. If she has to pack Lords with her cronies just to pass legislation (assuming she even can), that's a sign of how inept she is and a damaging display of how far she's willing to go against accepted practice in British democracy to push through the legislation she's staked her premiership on. Labour should be taking every opportunity to stick the boot in and hassle her on this, because it makes her look weak, and neither her party nor the electorate will put up with a weak prime minister. big scary monsters fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 14:37
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Lord of the Llamas posted:The USA has 5 times more population than France. Why aren't you comparing the USA to the whole of the EU? The whole trade halves as distance doubles thing is a bullshit axiom.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:39
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jBrereton posted:Uh the US gets about twice as much in terms of exports and about a third more in overall trade as France (http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/), which you may recall is just down the chunnel.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:40
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big scary monsters posted:When exactly does the time come to oppose this hugely damaging Tory policy? Why would May moderate her attitude or negotiate with the Houses if they will roll over the second she gives them a nasty look? Outside parliament addressing a bunch of Tarquins and Jemimas except when you forget to attend your own demo.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:42
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jBrereton posted:OK well let's go for another EU state smaller than France; we export more to the Netherlands than to France. I don't think it's meant to be taken literally.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:44
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@ don't lol me It's a case of the boy who cried wolf. I'm not saying a recession won't happen. In my opinion it will happen, but the problem is that the wealth and resources devision in this county mean that London will be hosed far far harder than the midlands and the north because we are getting pretty screwed right now anyway. Perhaps if things had been fairer in the first place then this would never have happened. If you want an example, this new high speed railway. It's going to carve up huge amounts of countryside so that Londoners can get from London to Sheffield 15 mins quicker. The poor already can't afford the regular train fares so who exactly will be using it?
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Mar 14, 2017 14:47
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jBrereton posted:OK well let's go for another EU state smaller than France; we export more to the Netherlands than to France. That's because Rotterdam is the largest port in Europe and one of the largest in the world. It's an international exporting centre. Pretty basic stuff to know if you are trying to sound authoritative on international trade.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:47
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big scary monsters posted:I have to say I've found the attitude both of Labour and this thread on opposing the government on Article 50 a little baffling. What's worse is that the attitude described, from the Labour establishment, is exactly what got Jeremy Corbyn elected as Labour leader in the first place. learnincurve posted:@ don't lol me Well, HS2 is actually being built to provide extra capacity to a line that we've reached the political, financial, and physical limit for upgrading, which we should've built 30 years ago, but sure, let's go with the "toy trains for the rich" caricature. TinTower fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Mar 14, 2017 |
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Mar 14, 2017 14:50
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Cerv posted:if your history text book doesn't cover why no government has ever actually stuffed the Lords to that extent, you could have a look at the recent news reports from shortly after Cameron's lot won the last general election but were left with a minority in the upper house. It's obviously a nuclear option, which is why it hasn't been done yet. Regardless, 'the Lords can delay legislation indefinitely' is not a thing and has never really been a thing. Also, King Edward strongly opposed the Liberals at the time, whereas all indications are the Queen favours Brexit, so I doubt she'd have some kind of crisis of conscience tbh.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:51
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learnincurve posted:It makes it harder to argue for Brexit if one of the main remain arguments was that if we voted yes then we would all wake up in the morning to economic collapse. Sugar tax will make more of a difference to the poor than the impact the yes vote had. You may as well just join your Leave compatriots at this time and just start making stuff up. I'll break it down for you; describe how everything will be better once you leave and nothing will be worse, but if it is worse, its actually the fault of the big evil EU for hating us and also the Remain campaigners for damaging the deal rather than anything to do with the staggering stupidity of leaving the EU given that its downsides are self evident.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:52
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Learnincurve, how did you vote and what your motivations? Are there a lot of eu immigrants where you live and did that play a part?
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Mar 14, 2017 14:54
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learnincurve posted:I'm not saying a recession won't happen. In my opinion it will happen, but the problem is that the wealth and resources devision in this county mean that London will be hosed far far harder than the midlands and the north because we are getting pretty screwed right now anyway. Perhaps if things had been fairer in the first place then this would never have happened. Yes, no doubt London will be allowed to suffer the brunt of any economic problems, it would be strange indeed for the south east to suddenly start getting special treatment to the detriment of the rest of the country.
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Mar 14, 2017 14:59
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Many of these countries will be open to negotiating trade deals with the UK in the same way that Wonga is open to lending people money.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:00
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learnincurve posted:@ don't lol me At least we agree on the recession part, it's just terrible that we've had a not insignificant part of the population utterly convinced that the problem is immigration and straight banana bullshit instead of cuts and "economy is like a credit card" HS2 would be a good thing if the rail system was nationalised - it being run as a vital service rather than a business would reduce the inequality to a certain degree.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:03
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HS2 is a good thing anyway; the key problem with the WCML is that three types of traffic flows (commuter, intercity, and freight) need to use the southern section and it realistically only has room for two.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:06
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Alertrelic posted:That's because Rotterdam is the largest port in Europe and one of the largest in the world. It's an international exporting centre.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:07
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jBrereton posted:Right... and the Swiss have a really big airport which explains them getting more trade than the French or what? People say that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush but actually that ratio is wrong because you can't sell birds in the bush. Unless they're grouse.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:10
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learnincurve posted:It makes it harder to argue for Brexit if one of the main remain arguments was that if we voted yes then we would all wake up in the morning to economic collapse. Sugar tax will make more of a difference to the poor than the impact the yes vote had. This was predicated on the idea that Cameron was going to do the thing the day after the vote in the keraaazy world where Leave had a chance. quote:Leaving the EU opens us up for more trade deals. India, Pakistan, Australia, Canada, America, China and Russia have all said they would be open to negotiating trade deals with us. Short term pain for long term gain. The glorious future of the People's State of Wessex does not really shine as an upside to me. learnincurve posted:I'm not saying a recession won't happen. In my opinion it will happen, but the problem is that the wealth and resources devision in this county mean that London will be hosed far far harder than the midlands and the north because we are getting pretty screwed right now anyway. Perhaps if things had been fairer in the first place then this would never have happened. Agreed, the recession's coming and this is primarily because inequality makes people more radical. But if you think people with no savings, low income, poor job security, and/or mortgages are the people who're best positioned to survive economic hardship you're mental. What's going to happen is this: A load of poor people, who's jobs are largely replaceable, are going to lose their jobs, or suffer profound losses in income or working conditions. They have no savings and will have to take on a lot of debt, which inflation will make profoundly onerous. Then, given they rent (if they're young) or are paying off a mortgage (if they're under sixty), they won't be able to pay that, and will become homeless, and a lot of them will die and even more of them are going to be forced into the welcoming arms of a public services system that's been slashed to the bone over half a decade because those people voted for it to be under the assumption they'd never need it if they just kept strivering. quote:If you want an example, this new high speed railway. It's going to carve up huge amounts of countryside so that Londoners can get from London to Sheffield 15 mins quicker. The poor already can't afford the regular train fares so who exactly will be using it? Most of the people who commute by train need the public service network. Train fares are ridiculous and are an inappropriate burden on those people, but they're still not posh yuppies who're taking trains for funsies.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:12
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learnincurve posted:It's really easy to sit there and say that 53.4% of the population of England are racist and just dismiss it as that. Reality is that the vast majority of people outside of the capital don't want to be in the EU, and that the vast majority of people outside of London are not in fact racist. Implying that they are and dismissing everyone outside of London's opinions as worthless makes you look like a bit of a smug tit, and is the attitude that in part lead to the Brexit vote in the first place. If people didn't want me to think their opinion was worthless they shouldn't have obediently fallen in line behind the most obvious scapegoating seen for a generation. I hope to be wrong about brexit, but so far all it's done is make me poorer and given racists the confidence to shout abuse at my friends from the bus. The brexity fucks responsible can call me a smug tit all they want cause I've got far worse things to call them.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:19
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learnincurve posted:It makes it harder to argue for Brexit if one of the main remain arguments was that if we voted yes then we would all wake up in the morning to economic collapse. Sugar tax will make more of a difference to the poor than the impact the yes vote had. No one should be trading with Russia.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:19
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Also how many of the thread actually live in London? Some of the staunchest Remainers here are from the north of England, not to mention scotland
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Mar 14, 2017 15:20
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I voted Remain and I do not live in London.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:22
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I live in North Wales and because I can read I noticed how much the EU gives to Wales so I voted remain. Stay in school kids.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:28
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learnincurve posted:It makes it harder to argue for Brexit if one of the main remain arguments was that if we voted yes then we would all wake up in the morning to economic collapse. Sugar tax will make more of a difference to the poor than the impact the yes vote had. Exactly how are you going to make more money when you're dead?
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Mar 14, 2017 15:29
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Regarde Aduck posted:No one should be trading with Russia. LOL. Yeah good luck getting the EU to stop buyimg their gas If we trade with America we should trade with Russia
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Mar 14, 2017 15:30
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I did not vote in the EU referendum
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Mar 14, 2017 15:30
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I still think it should have said stay and not remain
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Mar 14, 2017 15:34
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JFairfax posted:I did not vote in the EU referendum does that mean you are like half racist or something
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Mar 14, 2017 15:34
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MikeCrotch posted:does that mean you are like half racist or something I didn't vote either, being a filthy forrin. If you abstained from voting willingly, you either had a big problem, or you're just dumb I guess.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:40
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he's racist by birth but doesn't live there any more
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Mar 14, 2017 15:41
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Pochoclo posted:I didn't vote either, being a filthy forrin.  I'm just here for the Schadenfreude tbh
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Mar 14, 2017 15:44
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