|
Velius posted:Really the big problem is the Minekaze have worthless AA. All Japanese AA is lovely but at least the Akitsuki class can throw up some shots and disrupt bombing runs. One of the biggest reasons late war carrier battles favor the allies is the amazing amount of AA they get between destroyers and CLAAs, not to mention on the carriers themselves. Even if a strike gets through CAP naval AA just ends up shredding the fragmented groups as they come in. Didn't Grey kill most of the Atlantas?
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 15:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 19:40 |
|
|
Night10194 posted:Didn't Grey kill most of the Atlantas? Of the Atlanta-class Anti-Aircraft Cruisers 2 confirmed sunk 1 probable 1 damaged
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 15:39
|
|
|
Henry Kaiser is going to be so drat rich in this timeline
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2017 21:03
|
|
|
   We take more ground losses.   A good kill for the flak.  Oh god, this is a major offensive!  With most of my forces still on the offensive, these islands are lightly defended.   Right! The carriers need to get back to Rabaul and turn and burn! Once they are out there we can limit this offensive and do some damage to the Marines!
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 06:37
|
|
|
Please give me the lucky ship CA Kako.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 07:14
|
|
|
Diamir posted:Please give me the lucky ship CA Kako. Done
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 07:26
|
|
|
... Wow, even with having lost like a division to sinkings the Allies are on the offensive! What forces they likely to still have in the area and otherwise how long before you can counterattack and retake the islands?
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 07:30
|
|
|
Jumping Ahead since I am back in 1942 still, if the HMS Scythian is unclaimed ( It shouldn't show up for awhile I think it was launched in 1944) on lucky ships ill take that one of my relatives was the commander of the sub. I would pick my grandfathers ship, but I don't remember its name and it got sunk by a Kamikaze attack at some point according to his stories.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 08:09
|
|
|
Jack2142 posted:Jumping Ahead since I am back in 1942 still, if the HMS Scythian is unclaimed ( It shouldn't show up for awhile I think it was launched in 1944) on lucky ships ill take that one of my relatives was the commander of the sub. I would pick my grandfathers ship, but I don't remember its name and it got sunk by a Kamikaze attack at some point according to his stories. Actually sunk by a Kamikaze plane? You're in luck, there's only 47 of those! quote:Australian journalists Denis and Peggy Warner, in a 1982 book with Japanese naval historian Sadao Seno (The Sacred Warriors: Japan’s Suicide Legions), arrived at a total of 57 ships sunk by kamikazes. However, Bill Gordon, an American Japanologist who specialises in kamikazes, lists in a 2007 article 47 ships known to have been sunk by kamikaze aircraft. Gordon says that the Warners and Seno included ten ships that did not sink. He lists:
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 08:16
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:Actually sunk by a Kamikaze plane? You're in luck, there's only 47 of those! Its what he claimed, whether thats true or not I am not entirely sure he did like to exaggerate things somewhat as he got older  . He did have a purple heart we got after he died so I assume his ship was at least attacked at some point during the war.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 08:36
|
|
|
Jack2142 posted:Its what he claimed, whether thats true or not I am not entirely sure he did like to exaggerate things somewhat as he got older So, I don't know why, but the HMS Scythian isn't in the game. The class of ship is, and other "S"-class submarines exist in-game, but the Scythian does not. Seadog not in Sibyl is in Sea Rover is in Shakespeare is in Sirdar is in Spiteful is in Stoic is in Stonehenge is in Storm is in Stratagem is in Strongbow is in Spark is in Stubborn is in Surf is in Shalimar is in Spirit is in Statesman is in Sturdy is in, but curiously under a different class for a reason I haven't checked yet Stygian is in, same class as Sturdy Subtle is in, same as Sturdy Supreme is in, same as Sturdy Sea Scout is in, same as Sturdy Selene is in, same as Sturdy Sleuth is in, same as Sturdy Solent is in, same as Sturdy Spur is in, same as Sturdy I can't for the life of me tell why either Seadog or Scythian aren't in. Wikipedia lists Seadog as sinking 7 different Japanese ships, plus another 3 shared. Meanwhile, Scythian sank 10 various Japanese boats. Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Mar 14, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 09:34
|
|
|
Jack2142 posted:Its what he claimed, whether thats true or not I am not entirely sure he did like to exaggerate things somewhat as he got older Do you remember what class of ship it was? If he wasn't exaggerating we can narrow it down further, and then if you heard the name once in the past you might remember if you read it again.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 11:17
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:So, I don't know why, but the HMS Scythian isn't in the game. The class of ship is, and other "S"-class submarines exist in-game, but the Scythian does not. Thats weird, step up your grogginess WITP Dev's thats 17 Japanese Ships unaccounted for! Also its commander was the only New Zealander to command a Royal Navy Sub! NZL gets the shaft yet again. RA Rx posted:Do you remember what class of ship it was? Actually now if I remember right, I think before my grandmother died and after I went to University my cousin helped get a hold of our grandfathers war records. I think out of curiosity, I never got to see them and I think they are buried somewhere at my parents house so when I go visit I will see if I can find them. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Mar 14, 2017 |
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 16:11
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:Actually sunk by a Kamikaze plane? You're in luck, there's only 47 of those! I've always like that the Divine Wind kamikaze attacks were less effective at sinking American ships than the actual wind.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 17:31
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
Were kamikazes cost-effective overall? Like was the return on planes, pilots, and fuel invested equal to or greater than one Japanbuck?
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 17:38
|
|
|
HannibalBarca posted:Were kamikazes cost-effective overall? Like was the return on planes, pilots, and fuel invested equal to or greater than one Japanbuck? No. Not in the least. The suicide torpedoes they designed were actually worse in every way than the normal 'long lances', for instance.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 17:41
|
|
|
excellent, but what about the balloon bombs?
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 17:42
|
|
|
HannibalBarca posted:excellent, but what about the balloon bombs? Man, not even close. The balloons themselves were designed to maintain altitude, were able to automatically sever ballast, vent hydrogen if it became overpressured, etc. Then account for the cost of the bombs. Multiply that by nearly 10,000. They killed slightly over six people with them: A pregnant woman and five children.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 17:54
|
|
|
My favorite balloon bomb story is the one that managed to knock out the power for the cooling systems on the Manhattan Project's reactors.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 17:56
|
|
|
McNally posted:Man, not even close. The balloons themselves were designed to maintain altitude, were able to automatically sever ballast, vent hydrogen if it became overpressured, etc. Then account for the cost of the bombs. I'm starting to get the feeling that gimmicky wonderweapons aren't usually efficient uses of wartime resources 
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 17:58
|
|
|
HannibalBarca posted:I'm starting to get the feeling that gimmicky wonderweapons aren't usually efficient uses of wartime resources Except that one time that it turned out to be capable of leveling a city and ushered in an age of massive anxiety because we now had the means to cause the apocalypse, yeah.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 18:00
|
|
|
Maybe that family had the next six Einsteins, each capable of outcompeting a pillar of the future peacetime Japanese economy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 18:01
|
|
|
the only useful wunderweapon was American? but jojos bizarre adventure told me that German science is the greatest in the world...
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 18:02
|
|
|
Tiler Kiwi posted:but jojo told me that German science is the greatest in the world... Note the guy who said that continually, constantly got owned and/or hosed up.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 18:03
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:Note the guy who said that continually, constantly got owned and/or hosed up. a true german
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 18:03
|
|
|
The more esoteric programs were complete duds, sure, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Kamikaze program as a whole. It wasn't nearly as effective as the Japanese hoped, obviously, but it still caused immense material and psychological damage to Allied sailors, killing thousands and crippling (Though not outright sinking) multiple fleet carriers. And for Japan at the time, the cost to benefit ratio made sense-what they lacked was fuel and experienced pilots, but what they had was a wide number of older aircraft and cheap recruits. Compared to other programs, the cost/benefit ration was downright rational, if utterly horrific.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 18:15
|
|
|
well, the big problem with that tactic is that they probably should have clued in that they were totally doomed, considering their status was "the best thing our pilots and planes are good for is ramming boats"
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 18:19
|
|
|
  Dammit.  We take more losses on the ground.   Clunk!  Clunk!  We're not going to last long here.  Why are the carriers not faster?  I must have missed a B-17 hit at some point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
HannibalBarca posted:I'm starting to get the feeling that gimmicky wonderweapons aren't usually efficient uses of wartime resources Well, actually, I think the idea is sound. You don't just look at one gimmicky wonderweapon in isolation. The basic principle of trying out lots of different crazy ideas is a good one, because every once in a while, one of them works and (even more rarely, but still possible) one of them might turn out to be so wildly effective that it fundamentally alters warfare forever. For example, see the crazy gimmicky thing the British invented in WWI called a Tank. They couldn't have known from the outset that it was going to work at all, much less herald an end the era of trench warfare. And resource costs aren't straightforward, either. It might well be worth not building one big ship or whatever, to have the steel spare to try fifty different R&D projects. Or you might have some smart people who would not make good soldiers spare to devote to working on crazy engineering projects, etc. But Kamikaze was more about desperation than pulling resources from successful war production. The Japanese understood by then that they were loosing, but were not yet prepared to surrender. In that instance, it appeared to them to be worthwhile to try anything, even something horrific. I imagine it helped that it appealed to traditions of honorable self-sacrifice.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 19:03
|
|
|
There's also the fact that every version of fascism always seems to become a death cult.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:There's also the fact that every version of fascism always seems to become a death cult. Not to really disagree with what you're saying, but this is extremely simplifying things. It's likely that there were a fair few who did gladly volunteer, but that seems a bit disparaging towards the many who were basically given no choice in the matter. Here's a pretty good article on the matter, if people want to read it: Kamikaze Diaries: Reflections of Japanese Student Soldiers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 19:34
|
|
|
I meant on the part of their commanders more than the pilots.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:I meant on the part of their commanders more than the pilots. Yeah one of the most prominent features of death cults is that the leadership is usually encouraging the followers to do most of the dying. Jonestown is among the very few exceptions I can think of.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 19:42
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:Except that one time that it turned out to be capable of leveling a city and ushered in an age of massive anxiety because we now had the means to cause the apocalypse, yeah. And the other time we got a wunderwaffen that was capable of hauling that wonder weapon. Seriously, development of the B-29 cost as much or more than the Manhattan project, and the only reason the Allies weren't roundly mocked for wasting their time on such things is that we won.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 19:42
|
|
|
Any Battleship groups that could be sent into the area? While too late to save that ring of islands they could put more of a dent in the transport fleet. Seems a shame that they have been in a quite spell during this very brief time of Japanese air superiority.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 21:09
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:But Kamikaze was more about desperation than pulling resources from successful war production. The Japanese understood by then that they were loosing, but were not yet prepared to surrender. In that instance, it appeared to them to be worthwhile to try anything, even something horrific. I imagine it helped that it appealed to traditions of honorable self-sacrifice. At the point where the Kamikazes were introduced American task forces were too well defended for conventional attacks. If you're going to lose 90-95% of a strike force for zero hits, losing 100% for a few hits is a major upgrade in the effectiveness of your air units. Air search radars, effective CAP doctrine, and proximity fuses were slaughtering anything that got near a carrier TF. A Kamikaze strike didn't increase loses appreciably, and would occasionally sink or cripple a carrier.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 22:12
|
|
|
Is the MS Oranje in the game? She served as a hospital ship during the war. If so, I'll take her as my lucky ship. My grandmother was crew on the Amsterdam-Indonesia run post-war.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 22:32
|
|
|
darthbob88 posted:And the other time we got a wunderwaffen that was capable of hauling that wonder weapon. Seriously, development of the B-29 cost as much or more than the Manhattan project, and the only reason the Allies weren't roundly mocked for wasting their time on such things is that we won. Add to that the B-32 program, run in parallel in case the B-29 didn't pan out.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 22:38
|
|
|
At the same time doing crazy stuff when you have the Infinity Money and Infinity Industry things the US has is not as crazy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 22:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 19:40 |
|
|
The US had something like 40% of the entire planet's industrial capacity during WWII, right? I love it when various video game communities complain that the US is OP when really they're usually gutted in the interest of fairness. At least this game does a decent enough job of representing the Bottomless Everything.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2017 23:02
|
|