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cosmically_cosmic posted:I mean I don't mean to go back to you not even knowing basic parts of the film (Like thinking that the bad guys were drug dealers) No, let's go back to that. "His nickname's Corgi. Occupation - Well, let's call him a rather violent trader in questionable goods. Your basic thug. We've already checked out local police records, and no matter how hard we look, we couldn't find any connection with Gavel. The reality is, this guy's just another puppet controlled by the Puppet Master." -Batou You've gotten confused; I wrote that a bad guy is a petty thug, drug dealer character - which is both true and accurate. cosmically_cosmic posted:And come on dude are you really gonna try and link Ghost in the Shell using religious metaphors for transhumanism to Heavens Gate? That's some pretty low brow 'hint hint just saying' nonsense. I am not trying; I am succeeding. "Humans think that this is a flesh body world, and it is. But, more importantly, it is a human flesh body world. The Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, the Evolutionary Level Above Human also has bodies. I wouldn't say flesh bodies because they have different characteristics. But it is a physical body, a biological body, and in a sense, it is equivalent to a human body for that next Evolutionary Level. It doesn't need the kind of fuel that humans need, for it's not a mammalian body. It doesn't reproduce. It's not male nor female. It probably would look like what you might consider a very attractive 'extraterrestrial.' [...] Now, this understanding isn't meant to put you down or to say that an individual is necessarily 'evil' just because they're wearing a human vehicle. I'm wearing a human vehicle, because I have to wear one for this task. I don't like it. It doesn't match me. And those who sit in front of me don't like their human vehicles that they have to wear for this task. But they have to wear them, because the task of overcoming the human kingdom requires that they overcome human flesh". -Heaven's Gate Website You are getting confused because you believe a film needs to 'be marxist' before we are allowed to think about it. What you miss is that the film is already-inherently about capitalism and class struggle. Those things are repressed, but ineradicable.
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Mar 9, 2017 21:46
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So where does Mamuro Oshii being a former priest in training cone into this. You know, where pretty much all his films have some bibilical reference in them? Patlabor 2 famously has "I haven't come to bring peace but division/a sword" and a conclusion to Thomas Aquinas' "Just War". Young Freud fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 9, 2017 23:02
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Young Freud posted:So where does Mamuro Oshii being a former priest in training cone into this. You know, where pretty much all his films have some bibilical reference in them? Patlabor 2 famously has "I haven't come to bring peace but division/a sword" and a conclusion to Thomas Aquinas' "Just War". He's mentioned the Bible several times and quoted Corinthians, but apart from that are you suggesting it is impossible to interpret or understand Ghost in the Shell if you don't know Oshii's biography?
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Mar 9, 2017 23:36
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:No, let's go back to that. I'll give you that, it could mean drugs. quote:I am not trying; I am succeeding. Well using an obviously rediculous argument isn't really 'succeeding' however you slice it. Doubling down on the 'Ghost in the shell/Heavens Gate' conspiracy is pretty embarrassing to anyone reading this. quote:You are getting confused because you believe a film needs to 'be marxist' before we are allowed to think about it. What you miss is that the film is already-inherently about capitalism and class struggle. Those things are repressed, but ineradicable. Come on dude, either you didn't read what I said or you're just hoping no-one is reading my posts and they won't notice these weird lies. Specifically if you read this part: quote:No-one is trying to dismiss philosophical aspects of the film, the problem is that your specific brand of analysis is entirely based on a marxist reading of the film, and one that many people ITT disagree with. I mean I don't mean to go back to you not even knowing basic parts of the film (Like thinking that the bad guys were drug dealers) but you seem to have a real tunnel-vision for your specific marxist framework, and that is only one framework not the only one that is used to judge the merits of a piece of art. I mean I get it, you've chosen your one measurement and you're doubling down on never needing to think about anything else, and that might even work if you were putting more effort into it than 'Ghost in the shell caused Jonestown!!' EDIT: Really this last quote is really baffling to me, you accuse me of believing the film needs to 'be marxist' before it can be analysed, before then insisting that the marxist analysis is completely irredactable. Can you not see the contradiction here? You even scoffed at the idea that elements of Genre or direction could effect the interpretation of the film, but now you're going to say I'm the one who can't interpret a film beyond a marxist framework? Come on dude. cosmically_cosmic fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 00:11
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cosmically_cosmic posted:EDIT: Really this last quote is really baffling to me, you accuse me of believing the film needs to 'be marxist' before it can be analysed, before then insisting that the marxist analysis is completely irredactable. Can you not see the contradiction here? You even scoffed at the idea that elements of Genre or direction could effect the interpretation of the film, but now you're going to say I'm the one who can't interpret a film beyond a marxist framework? Come on dude. There's a difference between saying a film is "about capitalism and class struggle" and saying a film is, or needs to be, marxist. Any cyberpunk film is going to be about about capitalism and class struggle. That's what the "punk" half of the term signifies.
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Mar 10, 2017 00:36
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Schwarzwald posted:There's a difference between saying a film is "about capitalism and class struggle" and saying a film is, or needs to be, marxist. Except this is the thing I'm arguing, SMG is the one claiming that it's marxist impurity is what makes motoko 'an anti-christ' and the movie 'propaganda' which is insane.
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Mar 10, 2017 00:42
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cosmically_cosmic posted:Well using an obviously rediculous argument isn't really 'succeeding' however you slice it. Doubling down on the 'Ghost in the shell/Heavens Gate' conspiracy is pretty embarrassing to anyone reading this. You are becoming confused again. I did not allege that the director of the film was involved in an international conspiracy. I wrote that there are thematic similarities between Ghost In The Shell and the message of the Heaven's Gate cult. Heaven's Gate was not simply people 'acting crazy'; their cult was based on a very coherent and consistent misinterpretation of the bible and Jesus' teachings, which they outlined in great detail. In Ghost In The Shell, Paul's message about the Holy Spirit, the point that "there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" is perverted by removing Christ from the equation. The elimination of, ethnicities, nationalities, (etc.) is presented as an end unto itself - just as the HG cultists strove to be born again as 'angelic' (raceless and genderless) beings. Class is, of course, unaddressed. The message is one of universality, but the film (unwittingly?) praises how "Capitalism is not just universal in-itself, it is universal for-itself, as the tremendous actual corrosive power which undermines all particular life-worlds, cultures, traditions, cutting across them, catching them in its vortex." (Zizek) It's pro-globalization, naively accelerationist.
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Mar 10, 2017 01:08
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See this is what I mean about you hyperfocusing on the zizekian/marxist analysis. You're approaching everything through the lens of the perverts guide which isn't actually a guide to film analysis, but the exploration of certain themes and concepts of Zizeks particular philosphy. Attempting to judge all films by how much they openly promote Zizek's brand of philosophy so massively moves the goalposts, and removes so many critical parts of film analysis. The whole argument feels spurious. You seem to be under the impression that Zizek's views are a bible to how the world (and therefore film) must work. It's really reductionist. (Not to mention I disagree with your interpretation of many of these ideas). And SuperMechagodzilla posted:You are becoming confused again. And this is 'nudge nudge just saying' bullshit. You're clearly trying to make a direct connection, but don't want to have to own up to the fact that you're cheaply trying to link the Heavens Gate cult to an anime film from 1995.
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Mar 10, 2017 01:31
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we need a thread purely for SMG to talk about movies and people try to tell them it's wrong in that thread
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Mar 10, 2017 02:07
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cosmically_cosmic posted:'nudge nudge just saying' You are becoming confused again. I did not write that the 1995 film Ghost In The Shell is bad. I wrote that the 1995 film Ghost In The Shell is "pretty good". If I were making value judgements in the way you imagine, I would rank the film much lower. But I am not doing this. Fantasies about my hidden motivations are the source of your confusion. Heaven's Gate was a UFO cult and, like most, was based on a science-fictional interpretation of the bible. Inspiration came from such films as The Day The Earth Stood Still, with its alien "Christ". It is not inapt to compare their doctrines to the themes of various science-fiction films.
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Mar 10, 2017 02:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You are becoming confused again. Please stop engaging with SMG 2.0. You both post too many words and it makes my brain hurt cause eye donte reads no good.
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Mar 10, 2017 02:56
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UmOk posted:Please stop engaging with SMG 2.0. You both post too many words and it makes my brain hurt cause eye donte reads no good. I dunno man, the incomprehensible screeds being presented is almost like a forum's version of GITS if you think about it.
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Mar 10, 2017 03:50
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DeimosRising posted:He's mentioned the Bible several times and quoted Corinthians, but apart from that are you suggesting it is impossible to interpret or understand Ghost in the Shell if you don't know Oshii's biography? Very possible. No one knows why Oshii quit seminary, but it's been speculated that he had a crisis of faith or an existential issue motivating him. Thus, most of his films are personal to him, specifically Angel 's Egg (which is loaded with religious symbolism and debate) and the Kerebos franchise (which is largely about characters trying to find their place in a changing world). Even his more commercial stuff includes his personal likes: his book Mechaphilla reveals that he is a man who wears his references on his sleeve. I mean, if the debate is made that the Shirow's source material is irrelevant when it comes to GITS'95, then the argument is being made that Oshii's input is more prevalent and thus his personal history is relevant. Edit: I'm sorry if this is a little brief and confused, but I'm using my phone and it'll be a week or two before I get internet at my home. Young Freud fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Mar 10, 2017 |
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Mar 10, 2017 08:36
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Oshii is directing the original cast of GitS95 for the Japanese dub of GitS17. I'm never gonna watch it dubbed, but that is kind of neat.
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Mar 10, 2017 10:20
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Nobody but me going to take the time to vent about how apalling the Steve Aoki remix of the 95 theme is?
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Mar 10, 2017 13:20
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Spuckuk posted:Nobody but me going to take the time to vent about how apalling the Steve Aoki remix of the 95 theme is? People were saying that in the giant bomb thread, i dunno, to me it doesn't sound different enough to get in a tizz about.
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Mar 10, 2017 13:23
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Ramagamma posted:People were saying that in the giant bomb thread, i dunno, to me it doesn't sound different enough to get in a tizz about. You can't tell the difference between the original and a dubstep track?
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Mar 10, 2017 13:24
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Spuckuk posted:Nobody but me going to take the time to vent about how apalling the Steve Aoki remix of the 95 theme is? it was mentioned before, but it's so bad that it's absolutely unfunny. it doesn't even need any explanation of why it's bad or anything because it is so self-evidently and obviously worthless
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Mar 10, 2017 13:25
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Mithaldu posted:it was mentioned before, but it's so bad that it's absolutely unfunny. it doesn't even need any explanation of why it's bad or anything because it is so self-evidently and obviously worthless I just heard it for the first time last night and needed to vent on the internet.
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Mar 10, 2017 13:30
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heart all the tweets lambasting them when they posted it on their feed. 
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Mar 10, 2017 13:33
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Zizek's film criticism is philosophical fast food, a shabby capitalist product that's uncritically consumed by SMG because it's marketed as anti-establishment.
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Mar 10, 2017 13:44
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Spuckuk posted:You can't tell the difference between the original and a dubstep track? I can tell the difference its just not something i have a strong opinion about.
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Mar 10, 2017 14:07
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AndyElusive posted:The Majors thermoptic suit is pretty cool too: This is the biggest let down yet about the film, they got a sexy suit and basically made it look like a grandma's panties. I'm just hoping it ends up being a decent action film. That remix was pretty drat weak too, I have heard some Aoki songs that very pretty awesome and that remix was the basic bitch of remixes.
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Mar 10, 2017 15:21
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sean10mm posted:Zizek's film criticism is philosophical fast food, a shabby capitalist product that's uncritically consumed by SMG because it's marketed as anti-establishment. I like Zizek's work. I wouldn't call it 'fast food' but more 'food for thought', he tends to flit between subjects and mix in jokes/almost parody philosophy. The problem comes when people read his books and think 'wow, this extremely specific description of Zizek's own brand of protestant Christianity must be the only valid way to look at the world and anything that even might slightly disagree with it in any way must be capitalist propaganda. I'd better save some paragraphs to quote at people when I'm talking about movies.'
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Mar 10, 2017 15:33
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Heigen posted:This is the biggest let down yet about the film, they got a sexy suit and basically made it look like a grandma's panties. I'm just hoping it ends up being a decent action film. To be fair in that video we mostly see it being worn by a prop person in bad light, I'm sure they'll sexy it up for the movie.
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Mar 10, 2017 15:34
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I'm gonna go listen to some steve aoki at benihana before I go see this train wreck. Also Zizek is terrible. He got brutally owned by his teenage daughter a few years back.
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Mar 10, 2017 15:38
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Phone posted:I'm gonna go listen to some steve aoki at benihana before I go see this train wreck. *Sniff* *Sniff* *Nose-scratch* Ah- but you know, is it not when we, as good lacanian subjects, find ourselves prowperly subverted by our ideological mapping then *sniff* *sniff* we find dat, our true *sniff* ideological map as it were, is revealed to be truly whoal by dis *sniff* new paradox of *sniff* loss and absence, that is already in itself always present as a *sniff* violent absence in our ideological core?
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Mar 10, 2017 15:45
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Young Freud posted:I mean, if the debate is made that the Shirow's source material is irrelevant when it comes to GITS'95, then the argument is being made that Oshii's input is more prevalent and thus his personal history is relevant. You've repeated this a lot, but you haven't yet explained why "the director wanted to be a priest" is such vital information. The best I can figure is that you are using this to introduce a level of 'uncertainty': that the director was possibly in a crisis of faith, himself confused and uncertain, and the film is therefore not to be taken 'too seriously' as a completed work. Like, we can't say anything conclusive because the film is so personal that it is ultimately unintelligible. That does everyone a grave disservice. The film's themes are very clear, often including direct quotations of the works cited. I already mentioned the bible quote at the end of the film, specifically 1 Corintians 13:9-12: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." Oshii links this decontextualized quote with the part of Kant's Critique of Practical Reason where Kant speculates what would happen if man were able to access the noumenal domain: "God and eternity in their awful majesty would stand unceasingly before our eyes. [...] Thus most actions conforming to the law would be done from fear, few would be done from hope, none from duty. The moral worth of actions, on which alone the worth of the person and even of the world depends in the eyes of supreme wisdom, would not exist at all. The conduct of man, so long as his nature remained as it is now, would be changed into mere mechanism, where, as in a puppet show, everything would gesticulate well but no life would be found in the figures." The obvious importance of the puppet-show image, of man reduced to a 'mere mechanism', is to be underlined. Kant's point is effectively that our freedom is predicated on our finitude. We can only experience moments of sublimnity so long as we see only the appearance of das Ding, not das Ding an sich (the Thing as it really is). The film is of course literally about this Puppetmaster character that believes itself to be an angel because it is capable of manipulating people, longs for the experience of finitude, etc. The critical point, in interpreting the film, is in the understanding that the Puppetmaster is not an angel, and has no access to God. Its claim that it can grant humanity the gift of omniscience via technology is bullshit. It itself has been wholly separated from whatever Thing it is talking about since it 'became self-aware' at some indiscernable point (When? How?). It speaks of 'the sea of information' as something external to itself, incomprehensible. The Puppetmaster never had access to what it promises. The notion of an inaccessible 'outside' is a product of its having gained subjectivity, not the other way around. So the worship of the corporate network as God misunderstands that Paul in 1 Corinitians is specifically talking about agape -political love for thy Neighbor - as what makes us complete. The idea that God died and now only exists as the Holy Spirt, the collective of believers. Returning to 1 Corintians, Paul gives this description of the community of believers united by the Holy Spirit: "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I don’t need you!' And the head cannot say to the feet, 'I don’t need you!' On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. [...] God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it." Major and the Puppetmaster, having presumably read this part, interpret this in terms of evolution, how diversity ensures the survival of a system and whatever. Again, this misses the point; Paul is not talking about people's use-value. He is talking about solidarity inside the community of believers, that none are excluded in Christ. You can speculate endlessly as to why Oshii got this wrong - deliberate commentary on fake Christians, or his own failure? - but that's not going to get you anywhere. You need to look at the film.
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Mar 10, 2017 18:27
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Heigen posted:This is the biggest let down yet about the film, they got a sexy suit and basically made it look like a grandma's panties. Your grandma wears some crazy panties.
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Mar 10, 2017 21:38
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If they were shooting for PG-13 from the outset due to studio directives (they were) then thermoptics was always going to be a suit instead of barenekkid cyberladies. Sadly.
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Mar 11, 2017 00:14
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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DeusExMachinima posted:If they were shooting for PG-13 from the outset due to studio directives (they were) then thermoptics was always going to be a suit instead of barenekkid cyberladies. Sadly. That's a persistent myth. Major was never nude in the opening scene. The camouflage is a skintight beige leotard that smooths over her genitals to make her appear asexual/androgynous. The imagery is of the character repressing her sexuality.
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Mar 11, 2017 01:01
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's a persistent myth. Major was never nude in the opening scene. The camouflage is a skintight beige leotard that smooths over her genitals to make her appear asexual/androgynous. Not taking the effort to connect the thermoptic suit with fig leafs and the shame of original sin, 2/10
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Mar 11, 2017 03:27
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MariusLecter posted:Not taking the effort to connect the thermoptic suit with fig leafs and the shame of original sin, 2/10 The camouflage doesn't have much to do with that. It's 'invisible man' imagery, of the character taking on a demonic characteristics (see: Paranormal Activity). Note that the spider-tank is likewise invisible and beige. It's important to be concrete. For example: the scene where Batou disables the spider-tank is a repeat of the scene where Corgi takes out the police van. Batou's 'big gun' even jams at the end, which is a callback to Corgi's gun breaking down from the overpowered ammunition (and is a contrast to Togusa's 'foolproof' revolver). This linking of Batou and Corgi leads back to the point that Major and Puppetmaster do not have the actual solution to the problems of the film. We can introduce a potential light-side/dark-side contrast here - the possibility of Batou and Corgi working together without the 'help' of literal psychic powers.
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Mar 12, 2017 22:13
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I hate you
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Mar 14, 2017 00:13
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Screw this movie, but the official meme generator is awesome and has totally not backfired.
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Mar 14, 2017 18:58
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Mar 14, 2017 19:07
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Mar 14, 2017 21:37
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Echo Chamber posted:Screw this movie, but the official meme generator is awesome and has totally not backfired. A marketing campaign not attempting a deep dive into the themes of Ghost in the Shell is understandable, but this shows an impressive lack of thought about how the internet works considering it's to promote Ghost in the Shell.
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Mar 14, 2017 22:25
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Neo Rasa posted:an impressive lack of thought about how the internet works hollywood.odt
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Mar 14, 2017 23:05
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Yeah I bet they feel silly about all this viral publicity they just generated.
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