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ZorajitZorajit posted:it makes the characters seem unintelligent. That belter-speak is questionably racially charged, relying on some of the queues of stereotypical African American Vernacular English. Perhaps your roommate should point that critical eye inward and discover what this assessment means about his/her own biases.
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Mar 15, 2017 15:34
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ZorajitZorajit posted:My roommate tore into belter creole last night. Initially I was defensive, because nerd social fallacies, but I'm pretty sure he's not wrong. He felt like the show was doing a disservice by having it, that the characters sound stupid -- both that the speech sounds asinine and that it makes the characters seem unintelligent. That belter-speak is questionably racially charged, relying on some of the queues of stereotypical African American Vernacular English. And that the series would be more seriously considered if it didn't have to have it's own con-lang, a decidedly pulp-fiction inclusion for annoying con-going fans. Your roommate is a navel gazing tryhard knob, tell him that for me? AA Vernacular English? I once saw an american on telly who described a black English actor as an African American Englishman. I will admit that reading the incoherent verbiage on page was painful and they should dial it back a bit. I would be more than happy to sacrifice authentic speech for something I can understand. So that I can follow what is going on? Half of my displease for the Free Navy scenes was because for their conversation was hard to follow. I just skipped most of it. Hardly spoilers but this is TVIV and people Collateral fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 15:36
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If you might want to read the wordy version of all that's transpired so far the Kindle version of Leviathan Wakes is on sale today.
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Mar 15, 2017 15:55
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No seriously. What is stereotypical African American Vernacular English? I'm black, grew up in Harlem and live in Atlanta. I don't see a lick of slang continuity aside from "nigga" gohmak fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 15:56
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gohmak posted:No seriously. What is stereotypical African American Vernacular English? Its like a stereotype holdover in white cultural memory. Think "airplane" and "speaking jive" aka its bullshit
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Mar 15, 2017 16:02
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Your friend is right and wrong. Belters are a projection of the north american gamer's (a couple of dnd nerds wrote this) perspective and idea of poor and developing nations vs developed space faring nations of today. It is like that on purpose and the language succinctly tells the history of humanity from now to expanse era. It also tells the story about how gamers are capable of great detail and excellent at extrapolating while missing the loving point. e: It's a cheap trashy space opera, don't put so much thought into this poo poo. Zigmidge fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 16:48
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It's literally called Belter Creole because it's a form of Creole - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language Creoles have a tendency to sound 'jokey' to people who speak the languages they developed from. I mean, Jamaican Patois is a thing, it doesn't mock anyone, it's just how the language developed. The belters speaking in a Creole makes perfect sense, I don't think it's offensive to anyone and it's certainly not an indicator of them being stupid, we're supposed to figure out that the Creole developed for the same reason Creoles develop everywhere: Colonialism, people from different origins forced to live together and develop a common language, etc etc. Idk.
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Mar 15, 2017 17:02
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The most convincing part is the signing that the belters use. It makes a lot of sense. The creole is just local colour to distinguish them as the other.
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Mar 15, 2017 17:14
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Belter creole probably got added to the campaign the books were based on when somebody had just watched Blade Runner's sushi scene.
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Mar 15, 2017 17:20
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Not sure where this tabletop campaign thing is coming from. My understanding is that one of the writers was making the background for a videogame mmo setting, and then the other writer was like "holy poo poo you spent a lot of time on backstory, just make it an actual story" and so they did. I could be wrong, and I know there was a pretty circuitous route to the books being made in the first place though.
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Mar 15, 2017 17:24
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This article is a good summary of the history of the series (spoilers for later books near the end). TLDR: Ty Franck was developing the background for an MMO that never got off the ground, turned it into an online forum RPG, later played it with Daniel Abraham and together they turned it into a novel. Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 17:33
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It was Ty's retreat from the depravity of the GRRM. The protomolecule scenes on Eros are actually just GRRM's basement.
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Mar 15, 2017 17:35
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Lord Hydronium posted:This article is a good summary of the history of the series (spoilers for later books near the end). Similarly Raymond E. Feist's whole Midkemia setting came from a D&D campaign group he ran in college that evolved into a fullfledged world by the time he decided to write fiction.
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Mar 15, 2017 18:02
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I'd actually read a series of fantasy shorts that are well written retellings of people's bad table top RPG games.
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Mar 15, 2017 18:04
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*gamers bickering for 300 pages* You could just pick any thread in /Games/, there you go.
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Mar 15, 2017 18:08
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emanresu tnuocca posted:It's literally called Belter Creole because it's a form of Creole - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language I may be reading more social critique into what I remember of our conversation about it. I think his biggest concern was that the inclusion of belter creole was nerd-bait, junkfood worldbuilding, and that having characters speak in a made up language that is (deliberately or not) "silly" sounding (again, it literally sounds like silly words and baby talk) made the show harder to approach. I've got a background in English and little language studies so conversations like this are easy bait for me. He's a PHD-Candidate Chemist, so we don't always see eye-to-eye when it comes to artistic direction. But I'm also trying not to defend the show, even though I like it. Though I suppose it's fair that it's equally fallacious to think "Someone criticized a thing I like, they must be right about it and I'm being a neckbeard to say otherwise."
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Mar 15, 2017 18:39
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I think it's terrible that they depict belters as having tattoos because only impure degenerates have tattoos. What no I'm not projecting my own biases! The belters sound stupid because they remind me of blacks or foreign people, so shameful that they depict them as stupid like that.
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Mar 15, 2017 18:45
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ZorajitZorajit posted:again, it literally sounds like silly words and baby talk I really never got that from it. I think most of the Belter actors have sold it pretty well, and the show has done a much better job of making something like an actual creole, as opposed to the pile of random foreign words in the books.
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Mar 15, 2017 18:52
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I would think the base question to ask him is how do you qualitatively judge an accent/dialect? In your original post, you said that it was put to you that they sound uneducated while immediately equating it to certain types of slang. How is the person making that determination though? Does a person need a Midwestern newsroom accent to sound educated? Does Alex's twang affect how we perceive him or is it acceptable because it's more of a Texas drawl than deep South? It's one thing if you think the dialect sounds silly. That's a personal taste thing and you really can't fault someone for it. It's another thing to claim racial connotations. That's projecting personal biases.
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Mar 15, 2017 18:54
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If I had a baby that sounded like a Belter, I’d summon a doctor.
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Mar 15, 2017 18:58
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Surely we can all agree the belters are the coolest guys in the setting? *huffs vaccuum*
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Mar 15, 2017 19:05
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Strategic Tea posted:Surely we can all agree the belters are the coolest guys in the setting? *huffs vaccuum* Actually I'm more partial to the Martians.
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Mar 15, 2017 19:09
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Have we seen any of Earth society beyond political shenanigans at the top of government or Mars society beyond various military settings?
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Mar 15, 2017 19:19
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Show Lopez is way cooler then book Lopez. Captain Yao didnt even exist in the book and was also kinda cool.
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Mar 15, 2017 19:20
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ZorajitZorajit posted:I may be reading more social critique into what I remember of our conversation about it. I think his biggest concern was that the inclusion of belter creole was nerd-bait, junkfood worldbuilding, and that having characters speak in a made up language that is (deliberately or not) "silly" sounding (again, it literally sounds like silly words and baby talk) made the show harder to approach. I've got a background in English and little language studies so conversations like this are easy bait for me. He's a PHD-Candidate Chemist, so we don't always see eye-to-eye when it comes to artistic direction. But I'm also trying not to defend the show, even though I like it. Though I suppose it's fair that it's equally fallacious to think "Someone criticized a thing I like, they must be right about it and I'm being a neckbeard to say otherwise." The point is, and the show emphasizes this, that that's a fallacy on the part of the listener. It doesn't say anything about the intelligence of the speaker, even though we all naturally assume it does on some level. Basically, Belter Creole is actually cool and good and your friend is missing the point.
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Mar 15, 2017 19:21
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bull3964 posted:Does Alex's twang affect how we perceive him or is it acceptable because it's more of a Texas drawl than deep South? Belter Creole serves a number of narrative purposes. In-universe, it's another way of separating Belters from Inners, giving them a shared cultural element to identify with. It's also a class signifier among Belters and their allies - the extent to which a character uses Creole is pretty well-correlated with how working-class they are, with higher-end political and military officials rarely using it. Non-native Belters like Fred never use it, which puts it into the argument over respectability politics that runs throughout the series. In that vein, there's some interesting stuff with code-switching in the books, where certain characters speak in thicker Creole among other Belters and use standard English otherwise. In the show, Dawes uses his accent and lexicon to mark himself as an ally of the Belter working class, contrasting with Fred's pure Earther dialect. Out of universe, it also provides a mini-history of the Belt, with the mix of languages showing who were the first to colonize it - other than some German words, it's largely languages from the Global South. This also gives readers a mental association of the Belt with modern-day Earth politics, with all the implications they derive from that. Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Mar 15, 2017 |
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Mar 15, 2017 19:23
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ZorajitZorajit posted:I've got a background in English and little language studies Exotic! It's always a rare pleasure to hear the deep insights of a man who managed to develop a background in English.
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Mar 15, 2017 20:04
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Number Ten Cocks posted:Exotic! It's always a rare pleasure to hear the deep insights of a man who managed to develop a background in English. Or read a post by someone who has a background in idiocy.
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Mar 15, 2017 21:59
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I haven't read the books, but why is Fred Johnson called "The Butcher"? I understand propaganda for an ex-US Marine now a terrorist org leader would go through Earth and Mars, but Fred seems like one of the most level headed people in the whole show. I binged the show so it may be my fault, but all I remember is him blowing up something he thought was dangerous, but this was way after being called The Butcher. Did he kill a million people or something? The Butcher just seems like a very extreme title, hell I'd call Dawes "The Butcher" before nice calm man Fred Johnson.
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Mar 16, 2017 00:53
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Barreft posted:I haven't read the books, but why is Fred Johnson called "The Butcher"? He’s the Butcher of Anderson Station, specifically. It was an incident from his time in the UN Navy. He led an assault on a station full of striking miners. They were trying to surrender, but Johnson’s superiors never told him. The UN gave him a medal, but he quit is disgust. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 00:55
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Platystemon posted:He’s the Butcher of Anderson Station, specifically. OH so he was officially called the Butcher from that? Okay, I can see that. I thought he was called The Butcher from before that incident. Thanks. e: I think because the episode was called "The Butcher" and I binged it that I just missed any nuance. Barreft fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Mar 16, 2017 |
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Mar 16, 2017 00:58
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Lord Hydronium posted:This article is a good summary of the history of the series (spoilers for later books near the end). Thanks for the link, it's a good read
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Mar 16, 2017 01:07
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Platystemon posted:He’s the Butcher of Anderson Station, specifically. reads like a metal gear subtitle description of a character A HERO DISGRACED, TURNED TO REBELLION
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Mar 16, 2017 01:14
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Phi230 posted:reads like a metal gear subtitle description of a character It’s still probably the most interesting backstory of anyone in the series, with the exception of Amos.
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Mar 16, 2017 01:25
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Clumsy real-world analogies aside, I do love how the show/setting is so progressive and post-racial but in the shittiest way imaginable. Plus the whole hilarity for how things rapidly spin out of control from a cold war to a full blown shooting war. Sort of how the tangled web of alliances made WWI such a bloodbath even though original intent of the alliance was to create a balance between all the main super-powers.
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Mar 16, 2017 01:28
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etalian posted:Sort of how the tangled web of alliances made WWI such a bloodbath even though original intent of the alliance was to create a balance between all the main super-powers. Well they did. If the sides weren’t so balanced, the Great War would have ended sooner.
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Mar 16, 2017 01:30
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Mar 16, 2017 03:28
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I know exactly what scene this was. gently caress. 
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Mar 16, 2017 03:32
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Was not expecting that at all. Jesus.
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Mar 16, 2017 03:34
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I like the explosive decompression and vacuum exposure from Event Horizon better but I suppose we dont really have any frame of reference and just medical theory. Unless that has actually happened to someone and the governments of the world covered it up. Nobody has ever died in space right?
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Mar 16, 2017 03:55
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