UKMT March 2017 - Blame it on the Bourgie - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT March 2017 - Blame it on the Bourgie

Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed.
Jeremy Corbyn	95	18.63%
Dennis Skinner	53	10.39%
Angus Robertson	20	3.92%
Tim Farron	9	1.76%
Paul Ukips	7	1.37%
Robot Lenin	105	20.59%
Tony Blair	28	5.49%
Pissflaps	193	37.84%
Total:	510 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

Pissflaps posted:

I don't think you can hold up Scotland as an example of left wing politics being preferred over those of the centre left.

Nobody did that?

Edit: 10/09/2001. Nothing of note happened that day.

Lord of the Llamas fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Mar 21, 2017

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:02

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# ? May 15, 2024 10:12

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Lord of the Llamas posted:

Nobody did that?

Then in what way did New Labour alienate Scotland?

If it's the referendum campaign, Corbyn himself is anti independence.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:04

Communist Bear: Oct 7, 2008

The Iraq War, for one.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:08

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Labour won 41 seats in Scotland in 2005.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:11

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

Pissflaps posted:

Then in what way did New Labour alienate Scotland?

If it's the referendum campaign, Corbyn himself is anti independence.

This happened way before the referendum.

New Labour took Scottish votes completely for granted whilst they pandered to English swing seats and the SNP had double digit swings in their favour in the 2007 and 2011 Holyrood elections.

The referendum was just the last straw to break what had become a tactical vote for Labour in Westminster.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:12

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

Lord of the Llamas posted:

This happened way before the referendum.

New Labour took Scottish votes completely for granted whilst they pandered to English swing seats and the SNP had double digit swings in their favour in the 2007 and 2011 Holyrood elections.

I can see the logic in this, though your comment about swings is effect rather than cause.

This is what's happening in the North of England now.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:14

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

George Galloway is standing for Manchester Gorton.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:18

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

Well that's a good sign they won't let him back in Labour after all

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:20

Comrade Cheggorsky: Aug 20, 2011

I think there is some merit in the Labour Party embracing some sort of patriotism, people love that poo poo

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:20

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Some rightious fire being spat in the FT today:

Janan Ganesh posted:

There are medical students who glide through every stage of their training bar the bedside manner. They know the human body and its processes but cannot manage patient expectations or break bad news.

The three men in charge of Brexit, that elective operation on Britain�s body politic, evoke the opposite � and the worst � type of doctor. What they lack in core competence they redress with tongues of purest silver.

Pressed for detail on his work by MPs last week, David Davis, the minister for exit, left them vaguer. It hurts to inform you that diplomats find him well-briefed next to Liam Fox, whose trade portfolio is a phantom thing until Britain leaves the EU, and Boris Johnson, who has not let his rise to foreign secretary disrupt his work as a jester for the kind of Tories who laugh when a bird lands on centre court at Wimbledon.

But then look at what these ministers have achieved as manipulators of public debate. Over the past year, the terms on which Britain will leave have been talked down on such a fine gradient that even vigilant observers of politics are only semi-conscious of how far the country has been led.

As an opening pitch, voters were told that Britain could retain single-market membership without its corollary burdens. Norway and Switzerland have tried for the same Utopia but our superior size would clinch it. When Leavers were disabused of this dream, they spoke of �access� to the market and zero barriers for traded goods. German exporters, blessed with supernatural lobbying powers that somehow failed to soften European sanctions on Russia, would persuade the EU of the mutual interest in such an arrangement.

When even this diminished plan ran into trouble, when it became clear that Britain�s desire for bilateral dealmaking power could not be accommodated inside the customs union, Leavers fell back on a formal trade relationship with the EU instead. Britain would do business with Europe as Canada does, as if geography had been abolished and the access terms enjoyed by a nation 4,000km away would serve for a nation whose physical and economic orientation is to the continent.

That seemed to be the last recourse. But now ministers are trying to normalise the idea of total exit without a trade pact. Mr Johnson says this would not be �by any means as apocalyptic as some people like to pretend� (roll up, roll up for a future that stops short of apocalypse) and Mr Davis describes it as �not harmful�. Economists disagree with him but politicians are allowed to question their record of clairvoyance.

What they are not allowed is a pardon for a solid year�s worth of promissory slippage: from single market membership to a commodious niche in the customs union to a trade deal to absolute severance. Even if they are right that Britain can prosper in its principal market as a World Trade Organization member, this was never their vision.

At every stage, they overpromise. At every stage, reality finds them out. At every stage, they spin the new bottom-line as something they half-expected all along and as nothing to fear. If the sun melted the northern hemisphere, they would hope to finesse these isles out of the generalised inferno with a bespoke deal. This is the kind of confidence that arouses the opposite of confidence in others. It is the confidence of a lost tour guide who cannot be seen to scrutinise a map in front of paying holidaymakers.

If these ministers erred in different ways at different times, they could hope to improve through practice. But they consistently err on the side of optimism. The problem is not technical incompetence so much as a mystical belief that the EU will unpick its fundamental principles to accommodate Britain, that the whole world will make exceptions for the nation of Shakespeare and the spinning jenny. If these men were shocked that the EU turned out to be a tough interlocutor with interests of its own, imagine their first contact with the American industrial lobby or the Indian state.

On March 29, the government will file Article 50 and begin talks that have no precedent in sweep or complexity. If we are now inured to the prospect of the very hardest of exits, that is some feat by Leavers. There is an art to the gradual normalisation of previously extreme ideas. In the hands of a good politician, you cannot tell you are being let down.

It is just that you would rather be in the hands of statesmen. Seeing these ministers talk their way out of old promises leaves you with a sense of sinuous political skill but also smallness � of a trio pulling themselves up to their full height to look at the monumental work of exit straight in the ankles

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:21

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

If anyone feels like doing some wallet-based clicktivism, the lawyer who ran one wing of the case to force a parliamentary vote on the declaration of Article 50 is now crowdfunding a case against Uber, aiming to make them pay their VAT: https://www.crowdjustice.org/case/uber/

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:23

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

Comrade Cheggorsky posted:

I think there is some merit in the Labour Party embracing some sort of patriotism, people love that poo poo

flegs you say

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:23

Communist Bear: Oct 7, 2008

The over spill and eventual legitimacy and legality arguments in regard to the Iraq War; the over cosy nature of Blair and his cronies toward a volatile and neo-conservative America; the general hubris and corruption of the Labour government, and McConnell's weak leadership and constant deferring of decision making back down to Westminster, eventually led to the collapse of support in Labour and the gradual rise of the SNP.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:24

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

I bought some stuff from the Repeal The 8th campaign yesterday. Good cause.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:24

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

Comrade Cheggorsky posted:

I think there is some merit in the Labour Party embracing some sort of patriotism, people love that poo poo

Nationalism is a disease.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:26

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

WMain00 posted:

The over spill and eventual legitimacy and legality arguments in regard to the Iraq War; the over cosy nature of Blair and his cronies toward a volatile and neo-conservative America; the general hubris and corruption of the Labour government, and McConnell's weak leadership and constant deferring of decision making back down to Westminster, eventually led to the collapse of support in Labour and the gradual rise of the SNP.

These feel more like your pet grievances - i'd welcome any data to the contrary of course.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:27

Wheat Loaf: Feb 13, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Miftan posted:

Nationalism is a disease.

Indeed.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:28

Communist Bear: Oct 7, 2008

Pissflaps posted:

These feel more like your pet grievances - i'd welcome any data to the contrary of course.

http://www.institute-of-governance.ed.ac.uk/publications/working_papers/election_2007_devolution_come_of_age

quote:

With the Union anniversary looming, a peculiar double-decker argument evolved - on the upper deck the debate about the Union and Scottish independence; on the lower deck the issues of devolved governance. Labour concentrated the big guns on the upper deck - repeating the mantra of 'divorce is expensive' which had been successful in 1999 and 2003. What they did not fully grasp was that (a) the SNP had mastered the double-decker argument, taking the sting out of the independence issue by promising a separate referendum (and thus decoupling the issues of devolved government from the issue of independence), while at the same time playing on the unpopular reserved issues like the Iraq war, the replacement of Trident, Gordon Brown's role in the pensions crisis, and Blair's cash for peerages scandal, and (b) that an independence referendum and the transfer of taxation powers from Westminster to Holyrood ranked seventeenth and twenty-first among twenty-five policy issues in an ICM poll for the BBC at the beginning of the campaign, way behind schools and hospitals, crime, farming and fishing10. While the SNP seemed to have taken aboard the fact that the election was about what almost all elections are about, viz. should the existing government be thrown out because it had outstayed its welcome. And Labour, having been in power at Westminster since 1997, and in the driving seat at Holyrood since 1999 (and in hegemony in Scotland since the late 1950s), was widely perceived as having been there too long for a healthy democracy. The SNP threw a plethora of attractive - if uncosted - promises into the battle: scrapping the graduate endowment tax, wiping out student debt, replacing the "unfair council tax" by a local income tax (the only dominant domestic theme in the elections), more teachers, smaller class sizes, more policemen, reduced business rates, abolition of road and bridge tolls.

In fairness, it has to be said that Jack McConnell tried hard to make education the central plank of Scottish Labour's election campaign11 - but the SNP seemed "to dominate the media agenda."12 Labour did not manage to make its themes the focus of the campaign. In the end, Blair's long good-bye, the ongoing fiasco in Iraq, Trident, cash for honours, nuclear power, pensions, treatment of asylum seekers, etc cast a long shadow over the campaign. Blair and Brown's presence in the campaign highlighted those 'reserved' matters - and reinforced the public perception of negativity about Labour. A Populus poll for The Times a fortnight before the election put Labour in the UK on 29 per cent, showing support for the party falling to a level last seen when Michael Foot was leader in the 1980s.13

Labour got bogged down by the independence bogey, their apocalyptic rhetoric annoying at least as many voters as they were frightening into voting for the status quo. What worked in 1999 and 2003, now became increasingly counterproductive, but Labour kept ploughing on, not realising that there were seriously diminishing returns, while reminding the public constantly of those reserved Westminster political issues that highlighted the impotence of the Scottish Parliament in those reserved matters, thus playing into the hands of Salmond's argument

My general feelings aside, the conclusion was that Labour had been in control of Scotland for far too long and its general malaise and lackadaisical attitude toward Scottish affairs was its downfall, whether unintentionally or by the SNP targeting key areas and pointing out their weaknesses. Coupled with what was going in Westminster and McConnell's reluctance to extend devolved powers, Scottish Labour had an uphill struggle.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:50

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

I can pretty easily see Corbyn making a play for the nationalist vote by the end of the year. A worker's nationalism. A socialist nationalism, if you will. :v:

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:51

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

WMain00 posted:

http://www.institute-of-governance.ed.ac.uk/publications/working_papers/election_2007_devolution_come_of_age

My general feelings aside, the conclusion was that Labour had been in control of Scotland for far too long and its general malaise and lackadaisical attitude toward Scottish affairs was its downfall, whether unintentionally or by the SNP targeting key areas and pointing out their weaknesses. Coupled with what was going in Westminster and McConnell's reluctance to extend devolved powers, Scottish Labour had an uphill struggle.

Ah, so it's Corbyn's fault then.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:52

Communist Bear: Oct 7, 2008

Fangz posted:

I can pretty easily see Corbyn making a play for the nationalist vote by the end of the year. A worker's nationalism. A socialist nationalism, if you will.

A Nationalist Socialist Workers Party maybe?

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:52

Wheat Loaf: Feb 13, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

WMain00 posted:

My general feelings aside, the conclusion was that Labour had been in control of Scotland for far too long and its general malaise and lackadaisical attitude toward Scottish affairs was its downfall, whether unintentionally or by the SNP targeting key areas and pointing out their weaknesses. Coupled with what was going in Westminster and McConnell's reluctance to extend devolved powers, Scottish Labour had an uphill struggle.

Sure, did you not hear the story about some Scottish Labour sorts scoffing at their English counterparts for having to actually campaign (!) for their seats?

Fangz posted:

I can pretty easily see Corbyn making a play for the nationalist vote by the end of the year. A worker's nationalism. A socialist nationalism, if you will.

"We've got to have this thing over here whatever it costs � We've got to have the bloody Union Jack flying on top of it."

# ? Mar 21, 2017 13:57

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

There only one flag Corbyn wants to fly, and it's the red one. Everyone knows this.

He will look incredibly weird holding an english flag like it's a bit of dog poo poo on the end of a stick that he's chasing working class tories with because he fancies them but doesn't know how to express it.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:02

big scary monsters: Sep 2, 2011; -~Ｓｋｕｌｌｗａｖｅ~-

WMain00 posted:

A Nationalist Socialist Workers Party maybe?

To compare Corbyn to the Nazis is ridiculous. He offers a change from the last few governments, a radical departure from failed policies, a sort of Alternative for Britain if you will.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:06

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Jose posted:

why are you banned from the black people subforum?

No idea. Maybe I cluelessly said some bad poo poo, maybe they're randomly throwing in posters as part of the 'sundown town' experience they're simulating as part of the current forum game.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:07

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

LemonDrizzle posted:

If anyone feels like doing some wallet-based clicktivism, the lawyer who ran one wing of the case to force a parliamentary vote on the declaration of Article 50 is now crowdfunding a case against Uber, aiming to make them pay their VAT: https://www.crowdjustice.org/case/uber/

Jo Maugham is such a good egg :3:

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:07

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

Ed Milidands tentative tiptopes into "patriotism" where horrifically cringe worthy, I doubt Corbyn would be more successful

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:09

Communist Bear: Oct 7, 2008

big scary monsters posted:

To compare Corbyn to the Nazis is ridiculous. He offers a change from the last few governments, a radical departure from failed policies, a sort of Alternative for Britain if you will.

Sorry I wasn't comparing Corbyn to the Nazis, I was just laughing at the possible naming options.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:13

Pistol_Pete: Sep 15, 2007; Oven Wrangler

vodkat posted:

At every stage, they overpromise. At every stage, reality finds them out. At every stage, they spin the new bottom-line as something they half-expected all along and as nothing to fear. If the sun melted the northern hemisphere, they would hope to finesse these isles out of the generalised inferno with a bespoke deal. This is the kind of confidence that arouses the opposite of confidence in others. It is the confidence of a lost tour guide who cannot be seen to scrutinise a map in front of paying holidaymakers.

Whenever I come from reading an article by an informed individual, a diplomat or an experienced trade negotiator about how insanely complicated and difficult Brexit is going to be and then see these characters and their naive, blind optimism that it's all going to be just fine, I get the same feeling of cold dread in my stomach that I had the day after the referendum.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:13

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

Darth Walrus posted:

No idea. Maybe I cluelessly said some bad poo poo, maybe they're randomly throwing in posters as part of the 'sundown town' experience they're simulating as part of the current forum game.

thats a shame i was hoping you'd done something fun rather than it just being the insane mod

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:14

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

WMain00 posted:

Sorry I wasn't comparing Corbyn to the Nazis, I was just laughing at the possible naming options.

So was he.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:15

Comrade Cheggorsky: Aug 20, 2011

The next labour leader needs to be a white van man who loves a pint and has the English flag tattooed on his one rear end cheek and her majesty the Queen on the other

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:17

Communist Bear: Oct 7, 2008

Lord of the Llamas posted:

So was he.

Crap I fell into that one.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:18

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

jBrereton posted:

holding an english flag like it's a bit of dog poo poo on the end of a stick

There's no official flag rules for any of the British flags, but I believe that is the correct method to display the George Cross by convention.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:22

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

Guavanaut posted:

There's no official flag rules for any of the British flags, but I believe that is the correct method to display the George Cross by convention.

That, or off the aerial of a white transit van. To be ceremonially correct the rust should be thicker on the right-front wheel arch.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:28

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Darth Walrus posted:

This qualitative study may help.

That study is genuinely very interesting. One or two of the conclusions are a bit tenuous/not supported by the quantitative data also included in the study (thinking about the "expectations are sky-high" here, the 'sky-high' expectations for brexit are, uhh, 5.0 out of 10 from leavers that it'll be a good deal? [2.8 from remainers], then again maybe it doesn't reflect the same thing - good deal != bright future outside the EU).

It's also really depressing.

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:29

jBrereton: May 30, 2013; Grimey Drawer

Describe how you feel about white vans in 3 emojis or less

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:30

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

jBrereton posted:

Describe how you feel about white vans in 3 emojis or less

:whitevan: :whitevan: :whitevan:

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:35

Wheat Loaf: Feb 13, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Re: Galloway deciding to run in Gorton, I note that he seems to have teamed up with Arron Banks, or at least is moving towards that.

Could look good on a Labour poster, I suppose.

"GALLOWAY IN THE POCKET OF BIG BANKS"

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:36

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# ? May 15, 2024 10:12

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

jBrereton posted:

Describe how you feel about white vans in 3 emojis or less

I used to drive one. Some oval office will try to jimmy the back doors with a screwdriver at least once, presumably to try to steal more screwdrivers to repeat the process. People give way to you more often even when you don't have right of way.

I don't know the emojis for those three but I think one is the eggplant one.

Alternative answer: The Sun 🌞📰

# ? Mar 21, 2017 14:39

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