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Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Jeremy Corbyn |
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95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
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53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
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20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
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9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
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7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
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105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
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28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
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193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
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Times like this, I actually feel sorry for the vocal moderate Muslims, who are going to spend the next few weeks pointing out why all their "But he was only doing this because..." co-religionists are missing the point by such a distance. And the dead and injured, of course. kingturnip fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 20:32
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Ignoring westminster being attacked is pie in the sky stuff honestly.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:33
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-aint even worth it-
Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 20:35
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Channel 4 are changing their story live on the news lol. They've just also said he's still in prison.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:37
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c0burn posted:Channel 4 are changing their story live on the news lol. They've just also said he's still in prison. Whoopsies
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Mar 22, 2017 20:38
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big scary monsters posted:The best way to deal with terrorist attacks is to ignore them completely and not give them days of blanket media attention, which only validates such tactics and increases the likelihood of subsequent attacks. Its an approach that rationally makes the most sense (its literally the opposite of what the terrorists are aiming for). But peoples response to things like this have never been rational - its always emotional. If you try to advocate that approach amongst folks who aren't already fellow travellers they will just look at you like you are mad (and likely dismiss anything you say from then on in). Tigey fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 20:38
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Im pretty sure there are multiple middle eastern and west asian countries where Compared to America Iran hasn't got a chance, either. You don't get to claim saintly pacifism if your alternative is being annihilated.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:40
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goddamnedtwisto posted:They *want* retribution against Muslims and Muslim-majority countries. They want a holy war between Islam and the West and provoking the West into that war is a lot easier than provoking Muslims. 
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Mar 22, 2017 20:39
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Jippa posted:Ignoring westminster being attacked is pie in the sky stuff honestly. I dunno, I don't think it's going to cause me to change my plans for tomorrow much.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:40
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Dehumanizing yourself and facing to statistics also maybe isn't super good for your mental health, unfortunately.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:42
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Rakosi posted:Compared to America Iran hasn't got a chance, either. You don't get to claim saintly pacifism if your alternative is being annihilated. "Sure we can kill you with impunity but don't think that gives you the moral high ground or something."
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Mar 22, 2017 20:42
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I understand that it's unrealistic to ask people to ignore these attacks, because we're just wired up to see a single murder as far scarier than (for instance) the estimated 40,000 early deaths every year in the UK due to air pollution. Which basically nobody at all cares about no matter how much the clean air people scream. But I feel nonetheless that if rather than being plastered across every aspect of the media for days on end, being discussed endlessly in Parliament, having billions of pounds thrown uselessly at preventing them, having the country go to war over them, etc., terrorist attacks were treated publicly like a rather less deadly disease than the flu, that would probably be better for the mental health of the country as a whole. And it would make terrorism less effective to boot.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:46
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big scary monsters posted:I understand that it's unrealistic to ask people to ignore these attacks, because we're just wired up to see a single murder as far scarier than (for instance) the estimated 40,000 early deaths every year in the UK due to air pollution. Which basically nobody at all cares about no matter how much the clean air people scream. Yeah but then how will the government enact really scary laws that can be massively abused? Cleveland police won't stand for it
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Mar 22, 2017 20:48
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TheHoodedClaw posted:Channel 4 News just lost a lot of money in a libel case if this is true. serious legal question, can people imprisoned under the terrorism act sue for libel? I mean I could certainly understand the fully liberal argument of "yes prisoners have rights", but do they specifically in the uk have the right to do that? how would you assess the damage to an imprisoned radical jihadists reputation? Seaside Loafer posted:They would loose though wouldn't they, so kind-of a flawed concept. A flawed concept that means loads of people dieing and resources wasted on military crap instead of nice things. Who is the head guy in charge of Daesh, just stick him on the phone to me and i'll talk some sense into him, im sure he is a reasonable bloke once you get to know him, just got to talk some logic with him he died in a bombing attack but surprise! he isn't dead he's just not allowed outside or on cameras or visitors, maybe he's immortal?
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Mar 22, 2017 20:50
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Ugh, now we have to listen to dozens of MPs talking about what a shock this is and how terrifying and traumatic it was for them. I have enormous sympathy for the actual victims of this attack, but when you're member of a parliament that has voted repeatedly to send our armed forces into various conflicts you really shouldn't be surprised that people might have it in for you. Neither do you get much sympathy from me for having to witness a relatively small amount of violence.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:51
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Seaside Loafer posted:Do the groups actually understand that this poo poo will make things worse for everyone including their brothers in the target nation or are they so blinded by the religion that they just don't give a gently caress. I refuse to believe that some of top level guys arent at a level of intelligence that they haven't actually thought for a moment 'you know what, all this 2nd coming, new york burning, 99 virgins in heaven whatever it is blah blah' stuff, might be a bit iffy. That's the point. Daesh is aware that the west can't stop touching the stove when there's a terrorist incident even if it's actually one of the many tragedies in the world at the time. If you kill a handful of people, you will dominate the news and successfully, outrageously successfully, will convince a big part of the public that violent repression is needed and it must target ethnic minorities. If the west doesn't accept ethnic minorities, where do they go? Well, back to the middle east, probably, where if ISIS can keep up recruitment and provoke a fight with the west they'll be the only guys who'll have them, even if they have a population of serfs. Making the lives of muslims in the west worse than living under their neofeudal empire is the goal, and all they have to do is play on the west's very well publicised fear of people that look different from them.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:51
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Spangly A posted:serious legal question, can people imprisoned under the terrorism act sue for libel? Presumably if he's being held on charges for something you could suggest it might influence the trial. Dunno who the guy is though.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:53
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suspect confirmed by bbc as Sayym Hayaiid
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Mar 22, 2017 20:56
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Rakosi posted:I'm not sure this was initially true. I remember that really well-publicised time afghanistan invaded the UK, too. Seaside Loafer posted:They would loose though wouldn't they, so kind-of a flawed concept. A flawed concept that means loads of people dieing and resources wasted on military crap instead of nice things. Who is the head guy in charge of Daesh, just stick him on the phone to me and i'll talk some sense into him, im sure he is a reasonable bloke once you get to know him, just got to talk some logic with him It's not if A: You believe in Strong Faithful Will to carry you through and B: Believe in apocalyptic faith where the day of judgement happens when that happens, and you are, of course, the most holy.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:56
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OwlFancier posted:Presumably if he's being held on charges for something you could suggest it might influence the trial. The guy mis-represented is the one and only "We will bring sharia law here" from the only clip the BNP and UKIP ever got of anyone ever saying those words. He's the white-right's boogeyman. Used to hang around with abu hamza.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:56
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jabby posted:Ugh, now we have to listen to dozens of MPs talking about what a shock this is and how terrifying and traumatic it was for them. I find this view, and other mitigators, reprehensible. Its the same as the attack on Jo Cox, just because tge perpetrators change the actions do not. If you said this same poo poo at Cox's murder you would have justifiably referred to as a psychopath. Moral relativism is loving irritating. Edit: mistook my Jo's because im an idiot Lid fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 20:57
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It's such a numbing and deadening carnival of fever pitched security theatre I really am powerless to give a gently caress by this stage. Media in this country has stoked up an atmosphere of such constant terror and dread that there's no room to react with anything more than a shrug. However terrible it must be for those personally effected, things like this are so banalised and normalised by blanket news coverage that any expression of sympathy or grief just feels cheaply performative.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:57
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jabby posted:Ugh, now we have to listen to dozens of MPs talking about what a shock this is and how terrifying and traumatic it was for them. Yeah the effectiveness of the UK response and the heroism of a few coppers negates MPs rights to talk about being obviously targetted. Would have thought violence aimed at MPs would be perceived a little more sympathetically after the murder of Cox.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:58
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spectralent posted:That's the point. Daesh is aware that the west can't stop touching the stove when there's a terrorist incident even if it's actually one of the many tragedies in the world at the time. If you kill a handful of people, you will dominate the news and successfully, outrageously successfully, will convince a big part of the public that violent repression is needed and it must target ethnic minorities. That's part of what's so frustrating. It's not some big secret strategy that we're accidentally and unknowingly playing into. Daesh have made it explicitly clear that the sole point of their attacks is to provoke an over the top response that stirs up distrust and hatred targeting Muslims in the West. The single purpose of terrorism is to make the news. That people are killed is a byproduct: causing violent, random death is just a quick way to get yourself on BBC One. And yet despite literally every politician and journalist knowing this, despite it being discussed to death (every time an attack occurs), despite all the expert talking heads looking serious and saying that this is what they want and we're giving it to them, we just keep loving doing it.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:58
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Lid posted:I find this view, and other mitigators, reprehensible. Its the same as the attack on Jo Brand, just because tge perpetrators change the actions do not. If you said this same poo poo at Brand's murder you would have justifiably referred to as a psychopath. Moral relativism is loving irritating. Oh well, if you find it irritating I'm sure that'll stop it from being a thing.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:00
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Spangly A posted:The guy mis-represented is the one and only "We will bring sharia law here" from the only clip the BNP and UKIP ever got of anyone ever saying those words. He's the white-right's boogeyman. Used to hang around with abu hamza. Still never heard of him but I don't watch the news. Rakosi posted:Yeah the effectiveness of the UK response and the heroism of a few coppers negates MPs rights to talk about being obviously targetted. Would have thought violence aimed at MPs would be perceived a little more sympathetically after the murder of Cox. Cox was a good egg though, though I suppose she probably did vote against literal nazis at some point.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:00
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2o1V4lX_g4
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Mar 22, 2017 21:00
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Lid posted:I find this view, and other mitigators, reprehensible. Its the same as the attack on Jo Cox, just because tge perpetrators change the actions do not. If you said this same poo poo at Cox's murder you would have justifiably referred to as a psychopath. Moral relativism is loving irritating. Jo Cox didn't vote for a war that killed millions so it wouldn't be true. The actions are fundamentally different. jabby posted:Ugh, now we have to listen to dozens of MPs talking about what a shock this is and how terrifying and traumatic it was for them. I watched crap footage of a small number of people dying today and I'm just coming out of the shock. I don't disagree with you on principle but I find it really hard not to empathise with the foreign secretary having a man die bleeding over him.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:01
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spectralent posted:It's not if A: You believe in Strong Faithful Will to carry you through and B: Believe in apocalyptic faith where the day of judgement happens when that happens, and you are, of course, the most holy.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:03
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Pochoclo posted:Just ban people quote:The attack may have been flagged by a post on the 4chan forum, which contained references to its exact location. It also contained a photo, taken from the internet, of two guns.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:02
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Lid posted:I find this view, and other mitigators, reprehensible. Its the same as the attack on Jo Cox, just because tge perpetrators change the actions do not. If you said this same poo poo at Cox's murder you would have justifiably referred to as a psychopath. Moral relativism is loving irritating. A lot of posters ITT unironically think the biggest thing wrong with Cox's murder was that she wasn't Tory or UKIP, if you read the thread when it happened. Dont be so surprised.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:06
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Jippa posted:Ignoring westminster being attacked is pie in the sky stuff honestly. I dunno, Jo Cox was murdered on the street and it was pretty much whistled past.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:07
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TomViolence posted:It's such a numbing and deadening carnival of fever pitched security theatre I really am powerless to give a gently caress by this stage. Media in this country has stoked up an atmosphere of such constant terror and dread that there's no room to react with anything more than a shrug. However terrible it must be for those personally effected, things like this are so banalised and normalised by blanket news coverage that any expression of sympathy or grief just feels cheaply performative. I grimly anticipate a tear-milking interview where a journo asks how it felt, and if the (preferably young female) person thought they were going to die, or possibly an interview with a slightly distant, shocked man being repeatedly probed if he feels like a hero for doing something decent during the event. big scary monsters posted:That's part of what's so frustrating. It's not some big secret strategy that we're accidentally and unknowingly playing into. Daesh have made it explicitly clear that the sole point of their attacks is to provoke an over the top response that stirs up distrust and hatred targeting Muslims in the West. The single purpose of terrorism is to make the news. That people are killed is a byproduct: causing violent, random death is just a quick way to get yourself on BBC One. It is to everyone else's benefit. It allows politicians to Do Something and/or Stand Up For People, and the government to extend military and security funding and extend security powers which are also useful against anyone else they don't or will in future not like. For journalists it's free clicks and they're not allowed to just post car crash pictures all over their websites/papers. The only people who lose are muslims and anyone who codes as muslim or arab, who'll be directly targetted, and most of us, who have to be unwarningly exposed to pictures of mutilated bodies and violence and live under increasing authoritarianism. And sadly, most of us aren't rich, so this isn't risking anyone who might be able to fight back. Lid posted:I find this view, and other mitigators, reprehensible. Its the same as the attack on Jo Cox, just because tge perpetrators change the actions do not. If you said this same poo poo at Cox's murder you would have justifiably referred to as a psychopath. Moral relativism is loving irritating. I remember the Jo Cox thing pretty well, actually. I remember loads of people talking about not politicising tragedy, saying he was just a violent extremist whose actions couldn't be traced back to anyone or anything and certainly didn't reflect on anyone, and telling everyone not to jump to conclusions about his motives from the brief summary of them he gave to witnesses. It seems something's changed, here, but I just can't seem to figure out what.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:07
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Rakosi posted:A lot of posters ITT unironically think the biggest thing wrong with Cox's murder was that she wasn't Tory or UKIP, if you read the thread when it happened. Dont be so surprised. gently caress off.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:09
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Rakosi posted:A lot of posters ITT unironically think the biggest thing wrong with Cox's murder was that she wasn't Tory or UKIP, if you read the thread when it happened. Dont be so surprised. Oh gently caress off
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Mar 22, 2017 21:09
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Spangly A posted:Jo Cox didn't vote for a war that killed millions so it wouldn't be true. The actions are fundamentally different. Yeah, the fact it happened doesn't stop him having poo poo politics but neither does having poo poo politics stop that he was just witness to a murder and tried something to help. Looking after dogs doesn't become bad because hitler did it.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:09
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If you want to kill an MP you don't try and do it by ram-raiding into Parliament. As the Jo Cox tragedy showed MPs are easily accessible in relatively vulnerable situations a ton of the time. The venue was deliberately chosen to be high profile but the violence was completely indiscriminate.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:10
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spectralent posted:I grimly anticipate a tear-milking interview where a journo asks how it felt, and if the (preferably young female) person thought they were going to die, or possibly an interview with a slightly distant, shocked man being repeatedly probed if he feels like a hero for doing something decent during the event. I jumped to conclusions tgat he was a racist white supremacist extremist driven by xenophobia and media support for unchecked neo nazism. It was entirely political. It does not make the people downplaying Cox and revelling in this any less racists, but it doesn't make the opposite true either - to downplay this and say politicians should expect to be murdered. It requires cognitive dissonance of a ridiculous scale.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:12
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Gonzo McFee posted:I dunno, Jo Cox was murdered on the street and it was pretty much whistled past. It was OK, he was a lone individual with mental health problems. Except funny how that didn't lead to increased spending for mental health services, perhaps because people know that line was always horse poo poo.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:12
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Rakosi posted:A lot of posters ITT unironically think the biggest thing wrong with Cox's murder was that she wasn't Tory or UKIP, if you read the thread when it happened. Dont be so surprised. gently caress off.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:12
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