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skooma512 posted:Well, it seems like you watched all of DS9 but only cherry picked Voyager. 30 episodes out of 172 doesn't sound very good to me, I'm sure you'd hate Voyager if you sat through it sans guide. I'm in season 7 watching all but the most egregiously dumb episodes (since season 4 when I was doing every last one) and I'm starting to get sick of it. The 50 Year Mission book indicates that a lot of the staff was getting bored with it at this point too. Haven't gotten round to 50 Year Mission yet but I've read some old comments Ronald D. Moore made about when he was very briefly involved with VOY late in the game (season six, I think) where he indicated that it was a thoroughly unpleasant working environment by then.
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Mar 27, 2017 00:40
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I used an episode guide for DS9, but a lot more episodes were meant to be watchable that weren't.
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Mar 27, 2017 00:41
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This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think the one where Sisko and Jake fly that lame Bajoran solar wind sailship is a dumb episode, but that might be my own hatred of the concept of "roughing it" for no good reason.
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Mar 27, 2017 00:41
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WampaLord posted:This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think the one where Sisko and Jake fly that lame Bajoran solar wind sailship is a dumb episode, but that might be my own hatred of the concept of "roughing it" for no good reason. Like the purpose of "roughing it" like that was a deliberate homage to Kon Tiki.
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Mar 27, 2017 00:44
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Wheat Loaf posted:Haven't gotten round to 50 Year Mission yet but I've read some old comments Ronald D. Moore made about when he was very briefly involved with VOY late in the game (season six, I think) where he indicated that it was a thoroughly unpleasant working environment by then. I just listened to this part. He basically wanted to make it more serialized. He wanted it to be more like what we would eventually see in BSG, the crew challenging Janeway's authority democratically and making the ship more a product of the Delta Quadrant. He wanted more serialization in general (so say we all) and that just wasn't Star Trek. There was also conflict with Brannon Braga that the execs intentionally fomented.
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Mar 27, 2017 00:48
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Voyager is not all bad, but DS9's lows are only marginally lower than Voyager's averages, and Voyager's highs are extremely infrequent and never reach the heights of DS9's highs. Both shows sort of abandoned their original premises, but DS9 only sort of did, and for the better, while VOY did so in the first couple goddamn episodes and extremely for the worse. DS9>TNG>TOS>ENT>VOY, but DS9 is really best when you watch (nearly) all of it and have TNG behind it for grounding and context.
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Mar 27, 2017 00:52
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skooma512 posted:Well, it seems like you watched all of DS9 but only cherry picked Voyager. 30 episodes out of 172 doesn't sound very good to me, I'm sure you'd hate Voyager if you sat through it sans guide. I'm in season 7 watching all but the most egregiously dumb episodes (since season 4 when I was doing every last one) and I'm starting to get sick of it. I just got through watching all of Voyager (all of it  ) for the first time and I honestly don't think I could pick 30 episodes that would beat even a random selection of DS9 episodes for me. Like, here we are talking about how bad Meridian is, but there were entire stretches of Voyager that I found just as boring and pointless as that episode. Which isn't to say that Voyager has no high points, but they're so few and far between that I stopped caring.
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Mar 27, 2017 01:03
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willie_dee posted:I guess I must be super wrong in disliking DS9 but enjoying Voyager to prompt all these hilarious gifs! You're straight crazy. Also Enterprise season 1 and 2 are bad but they are at least watchable compared to the vast majority of Voyager (you nutter), so you might as well try some of it and then decide. If you don't dig the first half of season 1 probably just skip straight to season 3.
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Mar 27, 2017 01:10
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Wheat Loaf posted:Haven't gotten round to 50 Year Mission yet but I've read some old comments Ronald D. Moore made about when he was very briefly involved with VOY late in the game (season six, I think) where he indicated that it was a thoroughly unpleasant working environment by then. Yeah, he gave some pretty extensive comments to IGN maybe fifteen years ago. Basically, when DS9 ended, he was pretty burnt out, but Braga lured him to Voyager with the implication that they'd be equal partners in running the show. But Braga was on an egomaniac power trip at the time, and basically locked Moore out of the writers' room and didn't involve him in any of the creative process. Moore walked after like three weeks.
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Mar 27, 2017 01:10
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I like Voyager a lot better than Enterprise but there's not much in it. I think I could probably put a random episode of Voyager on as background noise and be less annoyed by it than if I did the same with Enterprise.
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Mar 27, 2017 01:18
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The Bloop posted:DS9>TNG>TOS>ENT>VOY, but DS9 is really best when you watch (nearly) all of it and have TNG behind it for grounding and context. I'd put VOY ahead of ENT just because of the EMH. Having one good character has to count for something.
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Mar 27, 2017 01:21
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It might be easier to enjoy Voyager more if you imagine it's an elaborate holodeck simulation series written by Jake Sisko. Jake later went on to write the Enterprise holonovels which weren't as well received because he was senile.
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Mar 27, 2017 01:24
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willie_dee posted:I used an episode guide for DS9, but a lot more episodes were meant to be watchable that weren't. Out of curiosity, what did the guide have you watch?
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Mar 27, 2017 01:30
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Out of curiosity, what did the guide have you watch? Both basically involved episodes that were either good, or had continuity, or both. Put together by Startreks reddit community. This was Voyagers. https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/2u3ve3/list_of_nonfiller_voyager_episodes/
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Mar 27, 2017 01:33
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I can't understand the love for DS9, I thought it was awful. It sucks there isn't more TNG, the episode with the lights or the episode with the flute are genuinely incredible.
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Mar 27, 2017 01:34
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willie_dee posted:I can't understand the love for DS9, I thought it was awful. You talk and you talk but you have no grombah
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Mar 27, 2017 01:35
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That list is terrible.
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Mar 27, 2017 01:38
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Bates posted:I'd put VOY ahead of ENT just because of the EMH. Having one good character has to count for something. That's fair, and the only one I questioned. Of course, if they'd gotten another season with the refit and permaShran it might have jumped a few places.
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Mar 27, 2017 01:40
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willie_dee posted:I can't understand the love for DS9, I thought it was awful.
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Mar 27, 2017 01:45
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willie_dee posted:Should I watch the latest version, Enterprise, with a guide or just watch every episode? I like Enterprise more than most people but even I'd cherry-pick my way through the first couple years. Those were rough times, especially that big long stretch of nothing in the middle of the second season. Season 3 is divisive but generally a lot better, and the arc focus makes it harder to skip around. Season 4 though, that was the good poo poo, and kinda retroactively makes some of the earlier material feel more worthwhile, at least for me. There's only really a handful of bad episodes in that season, including the finale. Easiest way to judge Enterprise episodes: if it has Andorians, pre-Federation world-building/pregaming for TOS, or doesn't take itself too seriously, then it's probably good. If it's a Season 1/2 time war episode, an anomaly-of-the-week thing, or trying too hard to be sexy, it's probably bad. Everyone's mileage varies though. The last thread's OP was right when it said you're gonna hear a lot of different opinions about Enterprise. Anyway, looks like Star Trek Beyond finally got added to Canadian Netflix at some point while I was distracted by old MST3K stuff.
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Mar 27, 2017 02:40
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Nessus posted:Jokes aside, what did you dislike about it? I think there is room to criticize and preferring TNG is entirely understandable. The acting in DS9 was mostly awful. Sisko was clearly trying to be Shakespearian like JLP but didn't have his ability or fellow actors to bounce off of. I loved the Ferengi and Garak and that they gave work to the TNG actors who had no where else to go. The overall story line could of been good, but they included these weird gods that hosed everything up. Most of the acting was incredibly hammy and child TV show like, which I think was scripted, it was like there should be a laugh track but nothing was funny so it never triggered. I loved how the show expanded the Star Trek world, but I didn't enjoy it as a show. Voyager had better acting, more consequential story line for the individuals and just felt more interesting.
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Mar 27, 2017 02:44
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...Mods?
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Mar 27, 2017 03:01
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Would bad TNG or DS9 episodes made decent Voyager episodes? A Crewman who requires a harness to operate at normal gravity finds it failing, and while taking care of her while the harness is being repaired, the Doctor discovers he is beginning to have feelings of her. Harry, who is repairing the harness thinks THIS will get him a date finally. The Voyager Crew arrives at a planet where society which while technologically advanced, maintains a tribal society based on strength. On behalf of another planet, Janeway as promised to negotiate with its leaders for a vaccine desprately needed on the other world. During the meeting, the planets leader is surprised to find both a woman captain and chief engineer. Taken with B'elanna, he kidnaps her and intends on making her his first wife. He tells Janeway that he will only trade the vaccine for B'elanna. The leaders current first wife demands single combat to maintain her place, and B'elanna is forced to take part. I guess Code of Honour minus the really racist sterotypes makes actual sense? While chasing pests aboard Voyager, a crewman finds a forgotten cargo container that contained a number of personal items belonging to the crew, including a journal and candle that had belonged to Janeway's grandmother that she was given shortly before leaving. In it she discovers... Oh gross, I do not want to think of Janeway being taken to the bone zone by some ghost. At least Crusher will always have the "my first MILF" status so it makes it okay.
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Mar 27, 2017 03:11
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twistedmentat posted:The Voyager Crew arrives at a planet where society which while technologically advanced, maintains a tribal society based on strength. On behalf of another planet, Janeway as promised to negotiate with its leaders for a vaccine desprately needed on the other world. During the meeting, the planets leader is surprised to find both a woman captain and chief engineer. Taken with B'elanna, he kidnaps her and intends on making her his first wife. He tells Janeway that he will only trade the vaccine for B'elanna. The leaders current first wife demands single combat to maintain her place, and B'elanna is forced to take part. I've always thought that if not for the Planet of the Tribal Stereotypes aspect, Code of Honor would be a fairly unremarkable episode. Still not a great one of course, but not one for everyone's Worst Of Trek lists either.
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Mar 27, 2017 03:21
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"Alamarain! Count to four!" "Please, I'm trying to negotiate a treaty here. The Cardassians-" "Alamarain! Then three more!" "There are millions dying in the Gamma Quadrant."
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Mar 27, 2017 03:30
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willie_dee posted:The acting in DS9 was mostly awful. For the rest of what you're saying, I guess I see where you're coming from even if I disagree, but I'd encourage you to take half a look. See a lot of the guys in Voyager got told to act extremely subdued. Are you taking subdued acting as "better"? It can be - but these things are deliberate choices. When you say gods are you talking about the Prophets or the pah-wraiths? I think the Prophets are done well, the pah-wraiths are kind of an rear end pull tho'
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Mar 27, 2017 03:39
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I prefer TNG to DS9, too, but sincerely believing that Voyager is better than DS9 because of Avery Brooks's performance? Are you a '90s TV producer or something?
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Mar 27, 2017 03:45
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willie_dee posted:The acting in DS9 was mostly awful. 5/10 I've seen better trolling, but you've stuck to the character of "person with the worst opinions or someone from a Bizzaro-world" for several posts now so I'll give you points. The real problem is that you're watching someone else's cherry picked best of list. If you really want to experience the real difference between Voyager and DS9 you'll watch the episodes in release order. Like the rest of us did when they first came out.
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Mar 27, 2017 03:55
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Guys like this are real, Berman was one of them and he was the guy gunning for them. Voyager is more "serious" because it's bland as hell compared to DS9 which could be fairly bombastic and their sensibilities can't handle it
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Mar 27, 2017 04:03
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Did any of the characters in Voyager outside of 7 of 9 and the doctor even have character arcs
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Mar 27, 2017 04:10
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That list has loving Tuvix on it, this is clearly some low grade trolling.
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Mar 27, 2017 04:09
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willie_dee posted:The acting in DS9 was mostly awful. Hold up, how far into the show did you get? It sounds like you only watched season 1.
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Mar 27, 2017 04:10
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Voyager is the only Star Trek show that I never watched. I tried the first few episodes when it was first on, and years later I tried again on Netflix but it is just unwatchable. The characters just don't interest me (other than The Doctor), the idea of "lost in space" was wasted, and the look and feel of the show seemed cheap and basic. I love Star Trek, but Voyager was insulting to me as if they said "make this for the nerds" instead of nerds themselves with a vision making a show about things they thought would be interesting. And I watch Big Bang Theory, I'm not fussy.
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Mar 27, 2017 04:20
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Orv posted:That list has loving Tuvix on it, this is clearly some low grade trolling. Tuvix was good. The ending was bad. Janeway is a monster. Voyager sucks at morals. The uniform was lol.
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Mar 27, 2017 04:20
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the goddamn ship got sick because neelix was making cheese jesus christ
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Mar 27, 2017 04:23
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I still like DS9 but my god did I hate the wormhole aliens. They opened season 6 with a deus ex machina and it just sucked the tension right out of the rest of the war. Oh gee, this is really exciting, what if the Federation loses the next battle the consequences will be...uh...Sisko has to go ask his mommy to magic the bad guys away again, I guess? E: The Bloop posted:Tuvix was good. The ending was bad. Janeway is a monster. Voyager sucks at morals. I respected them for not copping out on the dilemma with the inoffensive third option. Nope, Tuvix doesn't change his mind, no undetected cellular damage that would kill him if they don't split him, no second transporter accident, no clones so everyone can be alive. Janeway just straight-up stone-cold murders an innocent man to bring her friends back to life. Also  Kess was willing to turn murderer to get her boyfriend back and then just a few weeks later she's like "nah we're broken up, I'm hungry for that Tom Paris dick now"
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Mar 27, 2017 04:24
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The Bloop posted:Tuvix was good. The ending was bad. Janeway is a monster. Voyager sucks at morals. Agreed on all counts. Tuvix is the episode I point to when I need an example of Janeway being the worst captain of a Trek series.
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Mar 27, 2017 04:24
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vermin posted:"Alamarain! Count to four!" I do like using that game as a metaphor for incomprehensible and seemingly arbitrary games and processes, job interviews for example. There was this IQ test I had to take for one, matching shapes and determining patterns, that pretty much felt like me hopscotching to maybe get to the next shap. Quark didn't give up enough latinum for me to move along home though 
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Mar 27, 2017 04:28
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I remember not being a big fan of Avery's acting either, at least when Sisko gets intense. He gets this staccato rhythm going that feels unnatural as all get-out; it's more Shatnerian than Shakespearean, but he's not Shatner. So far though in our watchthrough, the first third of season 1, he's still riding high on the events of "Emissary" and his acting communicates that everything that happens is both slightly beneath him and mildly amusing. Kind of parallels the beginning of Sheridan's arc in B5. I would never say that Voyager is better, but TNG, yes, as I currently stand, no question. But then I'm also a TOS diehard and I think one of the problems with DS9 and later TNG is too much time mucking about with Alpha Quadrant politics. I get that that's the very premise of DS9 and I acknowledge that's at least partly my personal preference for my favorite alliterative subgenre: adventures about arbitrarily advanced ancient alien artifacts. Winifred Madgers fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 04:29
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Every fault and problem with Voyager and Enterprise was explained when a goon mentioned a number of pages back that B&B and the rest of the entrenched execs on Star Trek wanted to just remake TNG over and over again hoping they'd achieve the same success.skooma512 posted:I do like using that game as a metaphor for incomprehensible and seemingly arbitrary games and processes, job interviews for example. There was this IQ test I had to take for one, matching shapes and determining patterns, that pretty much felt like me hopscotching to maybe get to the next shap. Yea, I've had to take a lot of personality tests over the years for jobs and many have insane situations with no answer that won't make you sound like a terrible employee like How would you go about leaving early? A) I'd just leave B) I'd tell my boss I needed to leave and go C) I would just take an extra long break until my shift is done D) I'd have one of the other employees cover for me while I left early. No way to answer that twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 04:30
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