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Collateral posted:The reality is, the authors haven't bothered telling us anything other than, they (Why? For what reason? They never explained this.) have better scientists, and better ships (Again why do they have better ships? They were built more recently? Did Earth just stop building ships?). Selection effects, a disproportionate percentage of Martians are smart, energetic people. They had to be, to save up and decide to go or be worth it for an employer to sponsor them. They also have environmental effects driving their culture towards more effort and ingenuity. One thing that's weird about the books is that a really high percentage of Belters would seem to need 120+ IQs to be able to do a lot of what they do, like fly ships and run highly technical poo poo in zero g and vacuum. I can't believe that they've simplified it enough that anyone can do it. Some of the book belters do discuss their belief that all of the reckless people who didn't follow checklists died off and they've probably got a much higher percentage of "don't be a gently caress up" genes than Earthers. Number Ten Cocks fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 17:53
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It's not the genes, it's the "if you gently caress up this checklist or forget to be completely insane about your preventative maintenance you will die in the course of your normal day" every day for your whole life (excepting city belters like Miller)
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Mar 27, 2017 17:58
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vermin posted:I wonder if Mars is footing the bill for Ganymede so they can have a greater presence in the Belt than Earth or if they're just doing it because they don't want a war that badly. But asking a question like that borders on asking book people for spoilers. I would think it's because if Mars is footing most of the bill they can choose the contractors. Someone in Mar's government knows about the protomolecule on Ganymede, either because they recovered a sample from Protogen's burned base or because Mao has his hooks in Martian government too. I think the first might be more likely due to the research moon getting nuked by Mars and the seemingly black ops chaplain chaperoning Bobby.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:07
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Smiling Jack posted:It's not the genes, it's the "if you gently caress up this checklist or forget to be completely insane about your preventative maintenance you will die in the course of your normal day" every day for your whole life (excepting city belters like Miller) And genes determine in large part whether you care about or are able to consistently follow such incentives.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:18
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oh boy a nature vs nurture argument What have I done 
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Mar 27, 2017 18:25
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Smiling Jack posted:oh boy a nature vs nurture argument Hey, you can take that OPA bullshit back to Medina!
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Mar 27, 2017 19:10
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twistedmentat posted:The OPA to me is like the IRA, it's filled with multiple factions, some more violent than others. And everyone talks like they're in a Die Antwoord video.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:14
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R-Type posted:And everyone talks like they're in a Die Antwoord video. And everyone dresses like they're in a Die Antwoord video.
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Mar 27, 2017 23:20
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I'm gonna have Fink U Freaky in my head all day now
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Mar 27, 2017 23:31
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People are kinda emo in this second half of the season. The diplomats at this peace conference are literally the worst; I really don't think that diplomats would sneak a bit of jibes in on each other or act like petulant children.
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Mar 27, 2017 23:48
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Torpor posted:People are kinda emo in this second half of the season. Read the leaked State Department cables...
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Mar 27, 2017 23:51
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Torpor posted:People are kinda emo in this second half of the season. Have you seen footage of the UN when the US and Soviet Union were going at each other at the height of the cold war? Or stories of negotiations behind closed doors? It can get very undiplomatic. Avasarala needs to hammer her shoe on a table soon.
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Mar 27, 2017 23:51
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Torpor posted:People are kinda emo in this second half of the season. I don't know, I feel like more things might get accomplished if a UN Ambassador told someone else to shut the gently caress up every now and then.
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Mar 27, 2017 23:52
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etalian posted:And everyone dresses like they're in a Die Antwoord video. Their hair doesn't look as stupid though. And is that the accent that Harris is doing? Afrikaaner?
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Mar 27, 2017 23:52
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Torpor posted:People are kinda emo in this second half of the season. They're not really diplomats at all, they're the top brass, just sans their respective heads of state. Sniping and petty gestures aren't unknown at that level. But yes, the cogs in the diplomatic machine would be much less childish to their counterparts (who they'd probably liaise with all the time).
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Mar 27, 2017 23:52
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Baronjutter posted:Have you seen footage of the UN when the US and Soviet Union were going at each other at the height of the cold war? Or stories of negotiations behind closed doors? It can get very undiplomatic. Avasarala needs to hammer her shoe on a table soon. Sure, but those are not the 'oh gently caress we're gonna end up in a war' type diplomatic exchanges. You can listen to some EXCOMM tapes (from the Cuban Missile Crisis) from the oval office and they were cool as cucumbers.
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Mar 28, 2017 00:19
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Baronjutter posted:I do like that the misery in the expanse seems at least realistic and the powers involved are locked into it. Earth can't stop brutally squeezing the belt because they need resources for their dead gay planet with a majority of people on some form of welfare. Any losses from the belt, any rise in prices would directly translate into lower living standards on earth which would be political suicide for anyone who allowed it to happen. They can't reduce their military budget because mars might get the upper hand in space and earth absolutely needs those space resources or it could potentially be a total collapse of their society. By the time I finished reading this post I became a radicalized OPA extremist bent on nuking the inyaloda scum, holy gently caress I hope they do a bit where a talking head is on TV saying poo poo like you did and then some wirey-looking freak with an undercut runs in and clobbers him with a spanner or something Oppressed populations typically do not (and nor should they) give a gently caress about their oppressors
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Mar 28, 2017 01:08
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and this right here is where the thread takes a hard turn into stupidity
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Mar 28, 2017 01:10
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Tighclops posted:Oppressed populations typically do not (and nor should they) give a gently caress about their oppressors That's why they deserve to be oppressed, the oppressors are acting defensively against the sociopathic oppressed.  Smiling Jack posted:and this right here is where the thread takes a hard turn into stupidity 
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Mar 28, 2017 01:14
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Punching up and punching down are nonsense concepts in zero g.
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Mar 28, 2017 01:22
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Did anyone ever think the protomolecule aliens have more oppression points and actually deserve all human meats? If you add up their oppressionscore they're in fact entitled to kill all humans.
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Mar 28, 2017 03:54
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I for one am rooting for the PM in all this
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Mar 28, 2017 04:22
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Smiling Jack posted:and this right here is where the thread takes a hard turn into stupidity (Assuming you're calling out 'gently caress the oppressors, everything is justified' reasoning as stupid.)
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Mar 28, 2017 04:57
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It's nice that there's no clear "good guy" country. All 3 (2.5?) powers are evil idiots justified in their actions. What the expanse needs though is a system-wide workers movement allied with the basic lumpen of earth to create a new fair economic order that shares the wealth of the system and allows all to prosper (and some serious population reductions on earth, seriously you guys are like 100 years too late on the population controls). Demilitarize, pour resources (or just let them keep more of their own drat resources) into the belt and raise their living standards, enact strict birth control on earth to cut the population in like half in a generation or so, and finish up terraforming mars as resources allow. Terraforming I know is this sacred thing to Martians but they have like 7 billion people living quite well without a blue sky. The priorities are keeping living conditions for those on basic stable, raising conditions in the belt, then terraforming mars with what's left over. Earth can become a utopian paradise, mars can get terraformed, and the belt can be raised up to a new system-wide guaranteed standard of living.
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Mar 28, 2017 05:27
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And build a wall to keep out protomolecules.
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Mar 28, 2017 05:32
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I think maybe the protomolecule doesn't mean any harm and is just doing the work it needs to do and can be welcome in a universe of fully automated luxury. I really want some sort of paradox style strategy game set in a universe like the expanse. Want to play with those numbers and read spread sheets of economic information 
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Mar 28, 2017 05:33
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Baronjutter posted:It's nice that there's no clear "good guy" country. All 3 (2.5?) powers are evil idiots justified in their actions. The expanse takes a pretty hippy-humanistic view of things I think, countries can't be good or evil, people can be good and benevolent but largescale organizations usually tend to express the whims of their most opportunistic and greedy members. There are many good and idealistic characters and even when the hold positions of significant power it's always an uphill struggle. Holden is pretty much the most idealistic character around as he is 'deaf to politics' and always acts out on his ideals but he definitely not the only good guy around. Avasarala is a great example of a benevolent person who is jaded and cynical but is still largely motivated by a universalist sense of morals. etc.
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Mar 28, 2017 05:43
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I hated Avasarala when I first saw her. This rich spoiled political elite living it up in a big fancy house while most people probably live in cramped soviet apartment blocks then goes out loving torturing people to death at black sites and stomping the oppressed. But then once you get to know the universe and see how absolutely horrible everyone else is, suddenly the bar is so low that she seems positively altruistic. I think she's grown though and her ruthless loyalty and nationalism towards earth has begun to grow a bit to include the bigger picture of all humans. Obviously she's going to bat for earth first, but she can see there's a bigger picture. Hell just the fact that she's genuinely nationalistic towards earth rather than just in it for her own personal gain like most of earth's political elite sets her above. I'd love to see her and Fred and some reasonable martian get together and form some sort of loose solar federation.
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Mar 28, 2017 05:52
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Baronjutter posted:I'd love to see her and Fred and some reasonable martian get together and form some sort of loose solar federation. One of the worst things about consuming fictional works is "it'd be great if these N reasonable viewpoint characters got together and made some sense" never, ever loving happens because all fiction is predicated on conflict and "hang on let's hammer out a compromise" kinda takes the wind out of those particular sails. So we get attached to various factions and wish they could all get along because they all have cool aspects to them, but NOPE NOPE NOPE poo poo happens  Unless it's via a "HANG ON did you know these characters that all hate each other will now be forced to collaborate because OMG FOREIGN THREAT" plot twist, which is equally unsatisfying. tl;dr we love drama but we also hate drama
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Mar 28, 2017 06:32
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I'd absolutely read a book like the expanse where it was just about a bunch of successful diplomacy and economic and social reforms that turned them into some sort of star trek utopia or Culture setting so long as it was interesting and believable and shows all the hardships and struggles along the way.
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Mar 28, 2017 06:38
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Baronjutter posted:I'd absolutely read a book like the expanse where it was just about a bunch of successful diplomacy and economic and social reforms that turned them into some sort of star trek utopia or Culture setting so long as it was interesting and believable and shows all the hardships and struggles along the way. Me too, but if someone wrote that, wouldn't we all just do it? Baronjutter posted:I think maybe the protomolecule doesn't mean any harm and is just doing the work it needs to do and can be welcome in a universe of fully automated luxury. They already made that game, buuuuut... Baronjutter posted:Did anyone ever think the protomolecule aliens have more oppression points and actually deserve all human meats? If you add up their oppressionscore they're in fact entitled to kill all humans. ...that expansion isn't out yet. 
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Mar 28, 2017 08:56
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The expanse takes a pretty realistic view of things I think, countries can't be good or evil, people can be good and benevolent but largescale organizations usually tend to express the whims of their most opportunistic and greedy members. Fixed.
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Mar 28, 2017 09:35
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Longbaugh01 posted:Fixed. I think you'll find that all organisations that are flawed and have not created paradise at zero human cost are actually TRAITOR SCUM 
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Mar 28, 2017 10:00
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Avasarala sassing people continues to be the highlight of this show. Amos in general being a decent second.
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Mar 28, 2017 11:31
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Baronjutter posted:I do like that the misery in the expanse seems at least realistic and the powers involved are locked into it. Earth can't stop brutally squeezing the belt because they need resources for their dead gay planet with a majority of people on some form of welfare. Any losses from the belt, any rise in prices would directly translate into lower living standards on earth which would be political suicide for anyone who allowed it to happen. They can't reduce their military budget because mars might get the upper hand in space and earth absolutely needs those space resources or it could potentially be a total collapse of their society. Agreed, Fred Johnson is the neoliberal candidate of the OPA. I'm with
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Mar 28, 2017 12:03
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There are actually more kinds of politics in human history than Democrats v Nazis and Literally 2017 USA
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Mar 28, 2017 13:43
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Baronjutter posted:Terraforming I know is this sacred thing to Martians but they have like 7 billion people living quite well without a blue sky. The priorities are keeping living conditions for those on basic stable, raising conditions in the belt, then terraforming mars with what's left over. Earth can become a utopian paradise, mars can get terraformed, and the belt can be raised up to a new system-wide guaranteed standard of living. It is a fudge, if they didn't have the project they would have a lot of unemployed people just like earth. Which brings us back to why the Martian propaganda is flawed, surely the UN have a lot of unemployed people lying about to help clean the place up? Number Ten Cocks posted:Selection effects, a disproportionate percentage of Martians are smart, energetic people. They had to be, to save up and decide to go or be worth it for an employer to sponsor them. They also have environmental effects driving their culture towards more effort and ingenuity. I once read an EE Doc Smith book, probably Skylark, where the protagonist harped on about how the USA would always be ahead of Europe intellectually, because all the talent emigrated there, as it was the intelligent thing to do, like self selecting geographical eugenics. It was bullshit then and it is bullshit now and would be just as much of a steaming pile of poo poo in this future. This kind of genetic, intellectual determinism is pure quackery. Away with you. They could have just said that living at 1/3g increases brain capacity, since we just don't know if that would be true, yet.Still doesn't explain the ships, those stealth mini-ships that Mao built, poo poo all over the pride of the Martian navy, and they were built by/in/on Earth. Earth has the money, technology, and capacity to embarrass Mars. The authors haven't given us a good reason why Mars is better, other than we said so. There is a lot of that where Mars is concerned. Like 7 billion Martians, and all of them serve?. 
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Mar 28, 2017 14:56
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Collateral posted:
America doesn't kill dumb, lazy, or careless people at high rates. I have a wild theory that living in space during early exploration and conducting vacuum mining operations does. And ultra-high IQ immigrants to the US are a rounding error as a percentage of total flows, so given reversion to the mean they don't adjust the overall mean. But amazingly enough when you send a bunch of people to space who all have engineering degrees and they have kids, they're going to regress to a higher mean. Unless they started shipping Walmart clerks up the well you're going to see divergence and these aren't relevant comparisons. Collateral posted:This kind of genetic, intellectual determinism is pure quackery. I'm glad to hear it. Can you point me to some debunkings of all the twin studies showing that universally show genetics is about 50% of everything that matters, 50% is environment, but not all of that is even "shared environment," like parental upbringing and same schools? I'm always willing to become better educated about these things.
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Mar 28, 2017 15:11
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Number Ten Cocks posted:America doesn't kill dumb, lazy, or careless people at high rates. I have a wild theory that living in space during early exploration and conducting vacuum mining operations does. Some environments do. If what you are saying is true then the Inuit living in the barren wastes of northern Canada and Greenland are genetically predisposed to hard work and ingenuity while a tribe that lives in a friendly environment of plenty can be lazy idiots. Number Ten Cocks posted:But amazingly enough when you send a bunch of people to space who all have engineering degrees and they have kids, they're going to regress to a higher mean. Unless they started shipping Walmart clerks up the well you're going to see divergence and these aren't relevant comparisons. The work they do in those mines does not appear to be highly skilled. Maybe most of it is but they haven't shown it. They nuked a whole station when the workers rebelled because the company didn't think the workers were worth air. Like they're mining ice but the workers are not worth the electricity it would take to split the oxygen from it. If that's the value they put in their workers why would you think they only send highly skilled people?
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Mar 28, 2017 15:47
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"Amos, where's the puppy you picked up to be the Rocinante mascot?" "I did you one better, Martian." "Is it...in the box?" "Five puppies are in the box. That's twelve pounds of grade-A quality." "Amos! Haha!" "That's me!"
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Mar 28, 2017 15:57
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