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WampaLord posted:It's such a weird punishment in Star Trek's setting. Did we ever see anyone else get demoted? Poor Miles O'Brien is a lieutenant in season 2 of TNG before he gets busted down to chief 
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Mar 27, 2017 18:41
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Bohemian Nights posted:I dunno about this. The federation is probably pretty lax in terms of crime and punishment, but there is definitely still a rule of law. We've been talking about Voyager (???) and its own Tom Paris spends time before the show in an Earth penal colony because he was a member of the maquis or something, so an ensign refusing to follow orders would probably be discharged into a cell before being released into general population. It's said repeatedly that by the time of TNG/DS9/VOY, the Federation's justice system is all about rehabilitation, not punishment. How would a stint in jail convince someone it's okay to risk their life over something they consider insignificant? That's not necessarily caused by some deeper psychological problem that can be fixed with therapy, that's just natural self-preservation. I'm not sure what can be done about that that isn't just pure punishment.
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Mar 27, 2017 18:48
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Pakled posted:It's said repeatedly that by the time of TNG/DS9/VOY, the Federation's justice system is all about rehabilitation, not punishment. How would a stint in jail convince someone it's okay to risk their life over something they consider insignificant? That's not necessarily caused by some deeper psychological problem that can be fixed with therapy, that's just natural self-preservation. I'm not sure what can be done about that that isn't just pure punishment. Sure, but there are contemporary criminal justice systems that heavily weigh the focus on rehabilitation over punishment, but even with the best of intentions and most humane approach to taking away someone's freedom, the very act of imprisonment itself is often unavoidable (for the sake of the individual or society) and obviously punishment in its own right, even if rehabilitation is the ultimate goal. Also, every starfleet member swears an oath on graduating the academy, aside from the seek out new life and totes mcdotes obey the prime directive, you're also supposed to "obey the laws of the United Federation of Planets, to defend its security and to abide to the principles it stands for" and "to obey starfleet orders and responsibilities", Since you've willingly joined this organization that demands a certain level of deindividualization and self sacrifice, consequences are probably to be expected if you fail to uphold the above
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Mar 27, 2017 19:02
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Yea, I always assume that everyone who's managed to get through Starfleet training is entirely onboard with the concept of dying in service to the Federation, otherwise you could just be a civilian and live a life of luxury and safety.
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Mar 27, 2017 19:11
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WampaLord posted:It's such a weird punishment in Star Trek's setting. Did we ever see anyone else get demoted?  Decius got reduced two steps in rank for sending a subspace message when the Commander had ordered radio silence.
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Mar 27, 2017 19:28
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Orv posted:I mean, doesn't that make it a bad episode since that's what the episode is all about? Well, what I was saying was that Tuvix the character was good, but to answer your question: it depends on how you measure and what you mean by a good episode. The wrong lesson is learned or at least no one ever mentions Tuvix again and that is a huge problem with either the syndicated format or VOY writers in general. The ending is controversial and can cause a legitimate moral discussion, though. It isn't clear cut and immediately obvious. I think they went the wrong way for the wrong reasons, but others disagree. That's not really the mark of a bad episode. In a way, it's one of Voyager's best episodes because there is something in it worth discussing rather than warp particles or space trucks or how the writers don't understand evolution.
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Mar 27, 2017 19:54
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My wife enjoyed TNG and loved DS9 but refused to give enterprise a chance despite loving Bakula. She saw a single clip of voyager and instantly figured out Janeway was crazy and everyone else was boring as poo poo and refuses to watch it. I even got together a short list of the "better" episodes of Voyager but she won't. She has a real talent for figuring out characters though on a first impression. She had the entire main cast of voyager pretty accurately figured out from a single viewing of a few clips on youtube. Janeway is nuts and confuses being a "strong woman leader" with "being an inconsistent crazy dictator obsessed with her own power". Paris is a generic white male. The asian one is a pathetic beta and maybe a geordi-like fuckup in his luck with women. The klingon one is just always angry because biotruths and all these people seem to be one dimensional. Neelix is some sort of horrible jar jar binks cat man oh my god what the gently caress is he wearing. 7 of 9 is boobs (she was shocked when I told her she ended up being one of the only characters with development and is actually a good actor), the Doctor seems funny and gets to act, the black vulcan seems really serious but he seems to make it clear he hates neelix so he's cool, and is this guy seriously just the wise spiritual indian.... in space? She also picked up on the vibe of the ship being that of absolute loyalty to janeway who rules through some cult of personality that no one dare challenge. That was all from maybe 2-3min of youtube clips. She's got a knack!
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Mar 27, 2017 20:17
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CPColin posted:Kirk, after saving the whales. Of course, that was a "demotion." Also Ensign Ro, off-screen. Kirk, the whales saved. Starfleet, its arms wide. Ro, when the walls fell.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:17
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Baronjutter posted:is this guy seriously just the wise spiritual indian.... in space? Yep, they tapped Jamake Highwater for that characterization. You know, the fake Indian who had been thoroughly debunked like a decade before.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:26
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So, the Axanar jackwagons are nowhere near on pace to meet their IndieGoGo goal of "keeping the studio open" (translation: actually financing the Axanar short films), and Alec Peters posted a blog on Saturday saying they're discussing how to preserve the Axanar sets (translation: they know they won't keep their studio space). The wheels turn slowly, but they do turn.
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Mar 27, 2017 21:02
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So what's the story on Axanar? I remember vaguely hearing about Star Trek fans remaking episodes a long time ago before the Abrams movies came out. Are these guys related to that? Is it an elaborate fan fiction turned Kickstarter fraud scheme?
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Mar 27, 2017 21:04
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Railing Kill posted:Paris gets demoted, and then re-promoted back to his original rank, soooooo There's also whether or not the EMH can leave sick bay (which is just them technobabbling their way into making it more like TNG) Also how little of a poo poo Robert Beltran gave is a good indicator of how far along in the series you are.
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Mar 27, 2017 21:09
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vermin posted:So what's the story on Axanar? I remember vaguely hearing about Star Trek fans remaking episodes a long time ago before the Abrams movies came out. Are these guys related to that? Is it an elaborate fan fiction turned Kickstarter fraud scheme? The latter, with them trying to disguise it as the noble fan production fighting the big evil oppressive megacorp called Paramount. They went to court against Paramount and lost so horribly that it basically killed off any Star Trek fan production that isn't a one-off short film.
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Mar 27, 2017 21:10
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WeAreTheRomans posted:Honestly don't bother, it's worthless. Just watch TNG DS9 and BSG over and over
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Mar 27, 2017 21:10
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Spoeank posted:Also how little of a poo poo Robert Beltran gave is a good indicator of how far along in the series you are. After the series ended he eventually got more cool about everything but he's told stories at cons about how his first encounter with Star Trek was going into an audition for a Klingon in one of the TOS movies (I think one of Nimoy's) and asking what the gently caress a Klingon was.
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Mar 27, 2017 21:12
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vermin posted:So what's the story on Axanar? I remember vaguely hearing about Star Trek fans remaking episodes a long time ago before the Abrams movies came out. Are these guys related to that? Is it an elaborate fan fiction turned Kickstarter fraud scheme? Axanar began as a short film called Prelude to Axanar, which was a documentary-style talking-head film about the Battle of Axanar. The creator (and, naturally, actor of Garth of Izar) was Alec Peters, a super-rich turbonerd fan who became known in the Trek community for buying up every last bit of prop memorabilia he could, and then renting it out to fan films. (His Propworx company later went bankrupt.) Anyway, Prelude was the carrot they used to launch a Kickstarter campaign for a feature-length movie about the Battle of Axanar and the story of Garth of Izar. However, things started getting weird -- both Peters and Robert Meyer Burnett (most well-known for producing the bonus features on the movie DVDs and the TNG Blu-rays) began going on bizarre screeds about how they were giving Star Trek back to the fans, and taking it away from JJ the Great Monster or whatever. They started publicly lying about actors' involvement with the project. They began banning people from their social pages if they dared to ask where the $1.4 million was being spent. They began selling Axanar-branded coffee (with a literal Klingon D-7 on one of the bags). Eventually, CBS and Paramount sued them for infringement, and issued new guidelines for fan films (and it's important to note that those guidelines would never have happened if the Axanar pricks hadn't pissed in the pool). During pre-trial discovery, a bunch of ridiculous stuff came out: - Alec Peters had been taking money out of donor funds to cover personal expenses for himself, his girlfriend and Robert Meyer Burnett -- rent / utilities, car bills, cell phone bills, etc. He did so by having the bank issue debit cards linked to the Axanar bank account. Tens of thousands of dollars' worth of Peters' restaurant meals were found to be paid for with donor funds - Peters met with both Netflix and Amazon to talk about them acquiring Axanar and having it run as a series on the platform -- brazenly admitting that he wanted to make cash off Star Trek without a license - Axanar Productions' internal marketing plan has several money-making efforts listed in it, making it clear that Axanar Studios was always intended as a profit center - For years, Alec Peters was sending emails to both CBS and Paramount, trying to get other fan film productions shut down, saying they were infringing on copyright. Peters denied that claim, and then CBS produced a whole bunch of emails from him - Alec Peters attempted to convince Dave Galanter, an author under exclusive contract to CBS to write Star Trek books, to write a series of Axanar books under a pseudonym They still continue to take donor money, and it wasn't until like eight months ago that they stopped promoting Tony Todd as being part of the film (when Todd actually left like a year and a half ago, over not being paid -- and he had also been led to believe that Axanar was an official CBS production). So, rather than go through a long, protracted trial (after the judge had already ruled that CBS and Paramount was likely to succeed on the merits of infringement, and the only question for the jury was going to be "just how much did they infringe?), Axanar and CBS/Paramount entered settlement discussions. The settlement says that instead of a feature-length film, they can produce two 15-minute shorts, they can't pay any professionals (so no Burnett, Hertzler, Tobias Richter, etc.), Peters had to publicly admit that he crossed the line, and he had to agree to not crowdfund the Axanar shorts. So what did he do earlier this month? Launched a crowdfunding campaign "for the studio." 
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Mar 27, 2017 21:18
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Nessus posted:You're erasing TAS and I won't be having it, WATR, I just won't be having it. That is an offense up with which I will not put  I've never watched it
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Mar 27, 2017 21:22
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My DS9 watch continues with 'Who Mourns for Morn?'. Quark has just encountered two aliens from the Goodfellasian system, and they're fantastic. 
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Mar 27, 2017 21:35
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Kazinsal posted:After the series ended he eventually got more cool about everything but he's told stories at cons about how his first encounter with Star Trek was going into an audition for a Klingon in one of the TOS movies (I think one of Nimoy's) and asking what the gently caress a Klingon was. Sure, a lot of those guys can do pretty well out of conventions, right? So I guess they'd warm up to reminiscing for a couple of hours and getting paid fairly well for a few photos and autographs.
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Mar 27, 2017 22:13
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I really just think of TAS as more TOSThe_Doctor posted:My DS9 watch continues with 'Who Mourns for Morn?'. Quark has just encountered two aliens from the Goodfellasian system, and they're fantastic. Great episode.
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Mar 27, 2017 22:25
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Wheat Loaf posted:Sure, a lot of those guys can do pretty well out of conventions, right? So I guess they'd warm up to reminiscing for a couple of hours and getting paid fairly well for a few photos and autographs. James Doohan (who, admittedly, was always smart with money and just flat-out enjoyed working) said that he could have retired from the money he made from college / university and convention appearances in the '70s and early '80s.
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Mar 27, 2017 22:29
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Wheat Loaf posted:Sure, a lot of those guys can do pretty well out of conventions, right? So I guess they'd warm up to reminiscing for a couple of hours and getting paid fairly well for a few photos and autographs. Norman Reedus (of the Walking Dead) makes more money doing conventions than he does actually working. Quite a bit more.
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Mar 27, 2017 22:38
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The Bloop posted:
It was! And then I saw 'Far Beyond the Stars' is next, and I can't do that tonight.
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Mar 27, 2017 22:41
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Rhyno posted:Norman Reedus (of the Walking Dead) makes more money doing conventions than he does actually working. Quite a bit more. Yeah, I think I read an article which said he could walk away with something like half a million dollars per weekend just from personal appearances at conventions. Andrew Lincoln can draw a similar amount but I think he gives a lot of it away to charity. And Stephen Amell started up his own booking agency so he could make a bit of everyone else's con money as well as his own.
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Mar 27, 2017 22:58
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The_Doctor posted:My DS9 watch continues with 'Who Mourns for Morn?'. Quark has just encountered two aliens from the Goodfellasian system, and they're fantastic. There's nothing in here but worthless gold!
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Mar 27, 2017 23:06
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willie_dee posted:
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Mar 28, 2017 00:17
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willie_dee posted:The acting in DS9 was mostly awful. 
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Mar 28, 2017 00:37
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This episode is in fact more relevant and adult than any story in Voyager Prefering Voyager is no crime in and of itself but it does tend to go hand in hand with never thinking too deeply about the media one consumes and that's indicative of much larger character flaws
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Mar 28, 2017 00:47
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Tighclops posted:This episode is in fact more relevant and adult than any story in Voyager.  As much as I liked Seven and The Doctor's plots and character arcs, there isn't much new or "adult" (if we've all just decided to be that condescending) to plots about robots becoming human. "Future Tense" and "Far Beyond the Stars" make Yoyager look like Sesame Street.
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Mar 28, 2017 01:23
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Railing Kill posted:I mean, there is no universe in which "Workforce" is worth watching. It's little hints like that, the things that show VOY fans aping UPN marketing from 20 years ago, that make me think these people are brainwashed. "Workforce" is boring as hell, and it doesn't matter that it was hyped in the same way that every two-parter was hyped back in the day. It's on there just because it is a two-parter. It was terrible, as was the rest of the series that isn't on the list, and some that is. "Workforce" is amazing for just how aggressively pointless and boring it is. The core of the story is literally that aliens capture the Voyager crew so they can... erase their memories and give them decent jobs and lives? What? It's like some alternate reality version of the show where Janeway gave up on trying to get back to the Alpha Quadrant and everyone just settled down to live a normal life on some planet. The fact that Voyager's writers managed to drag a premise that thin out for two whole episodes makes it even more bizarre. SG-1 also did pretty much the exact same plot a year earlier, except SG-1's version is a halfway decent episode.
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Mar 28, 2017 02:21
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Wheat Loaf posted:Yeah, I think I read an article which said he could walk away with something like half a million dollars per weekend just from personal appearances at conventions. Andrew Lincoln can draw a similar amount but I think he gives a lot of it away to charity. Reedus hasn't really said how much he's making per convention but he gets paid by the con to be there and he pockets 70% of the autograph and photo op money. Amell's a genius. He knows his time in the spotlight is finite so he's diversifying as much as he can to make as much money as possible. The booking agency is genius.
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Mar 28, 2017 02:50
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Timby posted:He had also been led to believe that Axanar was an official CBS production. Wait, really? That's hilariously shady!
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Mar 28, 2017 03:36
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Paradoxish posted:"Workforce" is amazing for just how aggressively pointless and boring it is. The core of the story is literally that aliens capture the Voyager crew so they can... erase their memories and give them decent jobs and lives? What? It's like some alternate reality version of the show where Janeway gave up on trying to get back to the Alpha Quadrant and everyone just settled down to live a normal life on some planet. The fact that Voyager's writers managed to drag a premise that thin out for two whole episodes makes it even more bizarre. See, it's like "The Inner Light," except it's us that has to live a whole lifetime trapped in our ~imaginations~ The lifetime is the run time of "Workforce." It's meta as gently caress.
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Mar 28, 2017 04:51
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Railing Kill posted:See, it's like "The Inner Light," except it's us that has to live a whole lifetime trapped in our ~imaginations~ Janeway would suck at Roy.
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Mar 28, 2017 05:29
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skooma512 posted:Janeway would suck at Roy. Janeway would absolutely go back to the carpet store after cheating death. Every. single. time. Something about "duty" and "honor".
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Mar 28, 2017 05:37
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TNG_S6: Worf starts seducing a teenager, then ghosts the gently caress out when he finds out her dad was a Romulan. Worf tears apart a happy community because he's a bullshit little man.
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Mar 28, 2017 07:53
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I was just thinking about that episode where Riker's in a simulated possible future where it's 15 years later, he's captain of the Enterprise, he has a son, Data's his first officer, the crew includes Cardassians and Ferengi, Picard is the Federation ambassador to the Romulans... and Worf got Data's old job.
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Mar 28, 2017 10:03
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Wheat Loaf posted:I was just thinking about that episode where Riker's in a simulated possible future where it's 15 years later, he's captain of the Enterprise, he has a son, Data's his first officer, the crew includes Cardassians and Ferengi, Picard is the Federation ambassador to the Romulans... and Worf got Data's old job. The one where his son turns out to be the only real person and he's stuck on a planet where the kid got dumped with a mind-reading holodeck? And then the kid reveals his true form, and it's like a Mighty Morphin Power Ranger-level costume?
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Mar 28, 2017 10:28
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I don't remember that part. I thought it was the Romulans using some kind of mind control device on him. Haven't watched it in ages, granted.
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Mar 28, 2017 11:50
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PostNouveau posted:The one where his son turns out to be the only real person and he's stuck on a planet where the kid got dumped with a mind-reading holodeck? You're right! I watched that not so long ago, and how cheap and awkward the costume looked really stuck out at me. 
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Mar 28, 2017 13:01
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