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Is Communism good? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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375 | 66.25% |
| No |
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191 | 33.75% |
| Total: | 523 votes | ||
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Coohoolin posted:лол, ты ватник you don't know what this word means, долбоеб
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Mar 29, 2017 21:48
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:my line of descent means jack poo poo but me having grown up in russia and having gone through it's systems may have something to do with you хуйло поганое Well, I guess it does prove the low quality of post-Soviet education systems since you went with "ethnically Russian", ya palooka! I know people who grew up in the USSR both before and after its collapse, and they appear to have a variety of opinions, but that must just be an artifact of my degraded blood lmao.
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Mar 29, 2017 21:47
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Fiction posted:How old are you? Are you confusing communist Russia with the Russia we pillaged the economy of? no you see putin is an imperialist just like the stalin so they're literally the same thing
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Mar 29, 2017 21:47
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:so we agree that full on central planning economy with no free market whatsoever is really bad? im glad The issue for the Soviets is by the 1920s is that while private agriculture was doing better (and prices were lower to an increased supply) then Soviet Union was running out of surplus revenue to invest in heavy industry (the prices for industrial goods spiked). Maybe some elements of the NEP could have been retained but the Soviet Union did need some type of "Five Year Plan" especially inordinate investment in coal, oil, and steel production. Granted, I also think price controls are pretty garbage in the long term. They may be useful for a relatively emergency situation in a large country, but if they go on too long your economy is going to completely meltdown. I think the primary issue with talking about command economies is exactly what causes them to fail. Usually, it isn't "corruption" itself but tying industries to unworkable prices or setting unrealistic quotas. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 21:49
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Ardennes posted:The issue for the Soviets is by the 1920s is that while private agriculture was doing better (and prices were lower to an increased supply) then Soviet Union was running out of surplus revenue to invest in heavy industry (the prices for industrial goods spiked). Another large issue was labor shortages, which is why Stalin cut wages to force women into the workforce.
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Mar 29, 2017 21:50
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:you don't know what this word means, долбоеб я понимаю сто ето очен харашое, спасибо болшои.
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Mar 29, 2017 21:52
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I met a guy who graduated from university in 1991 and spent the rest of the 90s homeless and barely employed but he was probably a stealth Ukrainian or something.
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Mar 29, 2017 21:52
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Coohoolin posted:я понимаю сто ето очен харашое, спасибо болшои. я всегда знал что ты просто ебашишь по клаве без одной мысли в голове когда постишь
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Mar 29, 2017 21:56
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Brainiac Five posted:They aren't free markets. Guess we don't have the right blood quantum to understand your posts, though! Free market isn't supposed to be present on an intracorporation level, you idiot.
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Mar 29, 2017 22:03
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So if I follow the line of conversation here, 1990s economic reform in the former USSR was awful, which retroactively justifies Stalin's atrocities, also Putin is good and not an imperialist. The mental processes of idle bougie quasi-intellectuals are hell of a drug.
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Mar 29, 2017 22:07
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steinrokkan posted:Free market isn't supposed to be present on an intracorporation level, you idiot. Steinrokkan, the point is so far above your head it's in danger of shooting down satellites. Hint: why aren't corporations or families run as free markets internally? steinrokkan posted:So if I follow the line of conversation here, 1990s economic reform in the former USSR was awful, which retroactively justifies Stalin's atrocities, also Putin is good and not an imperialist. You couldn't follow a line of conversation with a map and bloodhounds.
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Mar 29, 2017 22:08
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Communism is worse than fascism, the worse parts of fascism like the police state were cribbed from communists.
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Mar 29, 2017 22:27
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hakimashou posted:Communism is worse than fascism, the worse parts of fascism like the police state were cribbed from communists. Huh, how weird, hakimashou doesn't consider mass murder to be the worse parts of fascism.
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Mar 29, 2017 22:30
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Huh, how weird, hakimashou doesn't consider mass murder to be the worse parts of fascism. Their victims weren't brown enough for his tastes.
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Mar 29, 2017 22:40
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"the worse parts of fascism" jfc man
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Mar 29, 2017 22:49
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steinrokkan posted:So if I follow the line of conversation here, 1990s economic reform in the former USSR was awful, which retroactively justifies Stalin's atrocities, also Putin is good and not an imperialist. More like for all the glory of capitalistic reform the state of Russia still has major issues, and authoritarian power stays in control. Capitalism is not inherently democratic, nor is communism. Quick exercise, what is "good" in your view? Can you name a state that exemplifies it, and who's ideology is not currently falling apart?
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Mar 29, 2017 23:24
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Huh, how weird, hakimashou doesn't consider mass murder to be the worse parts of fascism. They cribbed that from genocidal communism too When the Nazis took power in Germany, communists in Russia had already murdered more than ten million people. hakimashou fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 23:30
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I'm not sure the nazis were necessarily the bolshevik fan club. Like that seems up there with "palestinians convinced hitler to do the holocaust" in terms of stupid ideas.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:39
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White Rock posted:More like for all the glory of capitalistic reform the state of Russia still has major issues, and authoritarian power stays in control. Capitalism is not inherently democratic, nor is communism. While there's no utopic society, it doesn't create a categorical equivalence between all imperfect states in terms of their behavior, and neither does it justify any particular action of any particular individual or state. What I care about is Russia continuing its imperialistic streak, and shitheels justifying it with banal whataboutism, which is about as infuriating and despicable as Conservatives making up apologies for the War on Terror.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:43
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OwlFancier posted:I'm not sure the nazis were necessarily the bolshevik fan club. Heinrich Muller got his job as head of the gestapo in large part because of his expertise and admiration for communist secret police methods... the Nazis explicitly studied and imitated the communists in this regard. There were some Nazis who considered the mass murder of functionaries, professionals and intellectuals 'too bolshevik' but sadly didnt win the argument. hakimashou fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 23:43
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OwlFancier posted:I'm not sure the nazis were necessarily the bolshevik fan club. Let's not give him more ideas, now. After all we're talking with someone who thinks that the poor widdle nazis would have been super good if it wasn't for those wily reds. EDIT: Like, consider the following in context with the dude's latest drivel: hakimashou posted:Even in places where communists failed to enact their gruesome plans, there was still often a lot of suffering and death as a result of the necessary resistance to their efforts. Seems like the nazis weren't the only ones cribbing judging by the unironic lifting of neo-nazi talking points here. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 23:44
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hakimashou posted:They cribbed that from genocidal communism too Ten million? You must be skipping over some chapters of the Black Book, you must be more diligent in working with your Red Scare pamphlets if you are going to prove that Communism is worse than Nazism.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:46
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hakimashou posted:There were some Nazis who considered the mass murder of functionaries, professionals and intellectuals 'too bolshevik' but sadly didnt win the argument. Right, that would have dealt with the one flaw of an otherwise untarnished ideology.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:47
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hakimashou posted:They cribbed that from genocidal communism too Hello to anyone reading the thread who wasn't sure that half of "anti communists" really just have far right sympathies.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:48
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Cerebral Bore posted:Let's not give him more ideas, now. After all we're talking with someone who thinks that the poor widdle nazis would have been super good if it wasn't for those wily reds. The Nazis were just as bad as the communists, the problem is that we stopped with destroying the nazis. And the other problem is that people seem to think its somehow OK to apologize for or idolize to try to mitigate the genocidal crimes of the communists. Nazi loving degenerates are thankfully stamped out, but their identical counterparts on the communist side aren't.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:48
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steinrokkan posted:While there's no utopic society, it doesn't create a categorical equivalence between all imperfect states in terms of their behavior, and neither does it justify any particular action of any particular individual or state. What I care about is Russia continuing its imperialistic streak, and shitheels justifying it with banal whataboutism, which is about as infuriating and despicable as Conservatives making up apologies for the War on Terror. But you're making these accusations wildly instead of reading people's posts, as if someone who was pro-Stalin would necessarily be in favor of Putin's reactionary authoritarianism because after all, they're both oppressive governments. It's inane.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:48
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Brainiac Five posted:But you're making these accusations wildly instead of reading people's posts, as if someone who was pro-Stalin would necessarily be in favor of Putin's reactionary authoritarianism because after all, they're both oppressive governments. It's inane. It is a wild and rambling tangent on my part, but some people upthread somehow got from Soviet Russia to economic collapse to Putin to imperialism. I giess I overreacted, I have a hair trigger for whenever somebody hints at lionizing Putin as a foil to western degeneracy, on account of being surrounded by people who love to do that. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 23:52
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Stalin was quite reactionary and authoritarian for an avowed communist, to be fair. I mean, the dude didn't like jews or gays, turned a blind eye to Beria and Yezhov's excesses, made exemptions for the Georgian Orthodox church because his mammy was religious and all kinds of stuff like that. If he was some austere, ideologically pure agent of ruthless revolutionary zeal it'd be one thing, but Stalin the leader was just a right wing strongman wrapped in a red flag at the end of the day, very much a prototypical Putin.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:53
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TomViolence posted:Stalin was quite reactionary and authoritarian for an avowed communist, to be fair. I mean, the dude didn't like jews or gays, turned a blind eye to Beria and Yezhov's excesses, made exemptions for the Georgian Orthodox church because his mammy was religious and all kinds of stuff like that. If he was some austere, ideologically pure agent of ruthless revolutionary zeal it'd be one thing, but Stalin the leader was just a right wing strongman wrapped in a red flag at the end of the day, very much a prototypical Putin. Nah, I don't think that's really tenable. Plenty of communists have been antisemites and homophobes, have overlooked murderous violence, justified religious institutions, etc. and if we declare them all secretly right-wing we're certainly feeling better about ourselves but not really asking why all these right-wingers manage to pass themselves off as communists. Certainly Stalin wasn't very far off from many other Bolsheviks in terms of what he found acceptable or not. steinrokkan posted:It is a wild and rambling tangent on my part, but some people upthread somehow got from Soviet Russia to economic collapse to Putin to imperialism. I giess I overreacted, I have a hair trigger for whenever somebody hints at lionizing Putin as a foil to western degeneracy, on account of being surrounded by people who love to do that. Oh, no biggie, I hate those motherfuckers too.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:55
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TomViolence posted:Stalin was quite reactionary and authoritarian for an avowed communist, to be fair. I mean, the dude didn't like jews or gays, turned a blind eye to Beria and Yezhov's excesses, made exemptions for the Georgian Orthodox church because his mammy was religious and all kinds of stuff like that. If he was some austere, ideologically pure agent of ruthless revolutionary zeal it'd be one thing, but Stalin the leader was just a right wing strongman wrapped in a red flag at the end of the day, very much a prototypical Putin. Stalin did kill more of the KPD politburo than the Nazis did, so he's kinda got that going on. I'm not gonna defend him but capitalism tends to poo poo itself left untended and that's what a bunch of people argue right now.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:57
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The Nazis weren't bad "because they were right wing," they were bad because they were genocidal and brutally repressive. Communists aren't bad "because they are left wing," they are bad because they are genocidal and brutally repressive. The stuff printed on their flags doesn't make a communist in 2017 different from a neo-Nazi in any way that matters. Its the same people, deep down.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:58
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hakimashou posted:The Nazis weren't bad "because they were right wing," they were bad because they were genocidal and brutally repressive. Look at you trying to walk back your unironic nazi apologia.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:59
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The entire liberal notion of checks and balances makes no sense in advanced capitalism because accumulations of capital tend to result in entities powerful enough to steer whatever divided power they need to their ends. Who cares about the senate and house when you can literally buy both.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:00
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rudatron posted:Claims of a 'religion following' is also nothing but ideological propaganda. Even in it's heyday, marx was treated as a major scientific figure of the marxist theory, not a prophet. Saying that marxism is 'religious' is based on absolutely nothing, and the only reason the accusation is leveled is pure ideology. It's 2017, not 1894. The debates are over and the case is closed. You can be a religious fanatic about anything but the glove really fits when it's an ideology based around a guy who said a bunch of weird psudo-mystical poo poo two centuries ago. You can use more modern economic frameworks (or data) to say almost anything - there is no reason to self-identify with Marx unless you're deliberately trying to drape yourself in that weird flag. Panzeh posted:The entire liberal notion of checks and balances makes no sense in advanced capitalism because accumulations of capital tend to result in entities powerful enough to steer whatever divided power they need to their ends. Who cares about the senate and house when you can literally buy both. Or that doesn't happen. Real life will tell.
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Mar 30, 2017 01:10
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i think everyone should be forced to live comfortable, materially secure lives with the exact same standard of living as everyone else around them. that to me is communism and i think it's just dandy.
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Mar 30, 2017 01:36
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Uh, Marx is not remotely mystical. It's literally called dialectical materialism for a very good reason.
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Mar 30, 2017 01:46
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asdf32 posted:It's 2017, not 1894. The debates are over and the case is closed. You can be a religious fanatic about anything but the glove really fits when it's an ideology based around a guy who said a bunch of weird psudo-mystical poo poo two centuries ago. You can use more modern economic frameworks (or data) to say almost anything - there is no reason to self-identify with Marx unless you're deliberately trying to drape yourself in that weird flag.
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Mar 30, 2017 03:55
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OwlFancier posted:Uh, Marx is not remotely mystical. It's literally called dialectical materialism for a very good reason. What it's called and how it's treated by it's proponents are not the same thing.
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Mar 30, 2017 04:10
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The debate is over to the same extent the debate about the Nazis is over. You'll have some people who refuse to admit they were bad, but everyone else has figured it out. The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on. Look to Britain and May vs Corbyn.
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Mar 30, 2017 04:10
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hakimashou posted:They cribbed that from genocidal communism too Lol, massive genocide, and in particular genocide on the basis of race, was not invented by the Soviet Union. In fact there are many more well-established capitalist genocides organised with modern tools that the Nazis used as inspiration.
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Mar 30, 2017 06:49
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