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spectralent posted:Sure. I'm just not convinced given GW's track record they're really going to sit and do a lot of soul searching about what really needs to go in a ruleset and what's just sacred cows they won't kill and stuff that seems "fun". I mean, this is the company that made both LotR and Epic and did nothing with either of them. Epic 40k and Armageddon were both Jervis. LotR was Alessio, the Perry brothers and Brian Nelson.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:44
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MikeCrotch posted:Epic 40k and Armageddon were both Jervis. LotR was Alessio, the Perry brothers and Brian Nelson. Were the Perrys/Nelson involved in the rules-making? I knew them solely as sculptors.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:47
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Mango Polo posted:Did you miss a most important part? They could even sell binders for the rules sheets that warhams nerds will buy and it'll offset the "free" rules they release. Even better, they could make some for tournaments or organized play kits and and...  Imagine instead of buying a $50 codex, you buy $20+ (limited edition variants too, obviously) binders and the $10 "parchment pack" of plastic sheets that will hold the printed rules in them but have a grainy overlay to make the pages look like tomes~ Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 23:48
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Mango Polo posted:Did you miss a most important part? Sorry. I should have precised "minute fluff details". If players do not care about why your jump pack dudes are black instead of red, it's often because they either don't care about the fluff of the game versus playing it, or because they don't find it good. Is it because it reveal how poo poo GW are at balancing things, with super duper guys like termies being regarded as unfieldable trash? Or is it because it shut down bullshit gentlemen's agreements like "B b but it's the Death Company! You shouldn't slaughter them from 48" on turn 1! Mooooooooom!"? Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Mar 29, 2017 |
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Mar 29, 2017 23:50
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Perhaps they could sell the rules in 52 parts in all good newsagents to complete the binder, each release coming weekly and the first purchase just 99p (future releases £5.99)
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Mar 29, 2017 23:51
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MikeCrotch posted:Epic 40k and Armageddon were both Jervis. LotR was Alessio, the Perry brothers and Brian Nelson. man, I remember raging about JJ's 40K design years ago, playing 3e. it's weird to think people are nostalgic for his work now.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:53
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Skinty McEdger posted:Perhaps they could sell the rules in 52 parts in all good newsagents to complete the binder, each release coming weekly and the first purchase just 99p (future releases £5.99) Even better, in sealed booster packs. Got em, got em, need em, got em...
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Mar 29, 2017 23:53
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Iceclaw posted:E: ^ Subtility. Sure. Like uuuuuuh. Wait. The fascist parody that's now played dead straight? You even refered to litteral Space Nazi as the good guys. Think about that.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:55
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Iceclaw posted:Sorry. I should have precised "minute fluff details". If players do not care about why your jump pack dudes are black instead of red, it's often because they either don't care about the fluff of the game versus playing it, or because they don't find it good. A very good point, for all their name, Games Workshop doesn't really consider themselves a game company, for whatever reason. Everything is for selling models, period. They, accurately, realized that people like having stories to go along with their models, so they have a game, fluff, and books to go along with them. To get the most out of it, they also sell them. If you can get money for the game and fluff, why not sell it? The problem with that is, a lot of up and comers in the industry are selling their models, but giving their rules away for little or nothing. Every dollar not spent on a book is spent on models. Corvus Belli still sells books for rules and fluff for Infinity, but they aren't required as they provide an army builder and all the rules by digital format. Spartan Games does similar for their older games (their newer Halo and Taskforce games are not yet available for download). Privateer Press has provided the rules for each model for free since the beginning, and for the last year you can get the general rules for download. Dream Pod 9 have free rules for their Heavy Gear series. Hawk Wargames and Catalyst Labs haven't done it for Dropzone/Fleet and Battletech yet, but they can be considered outliers at this point. AoS' base rules are already free. You pay for expanding the playstyle of the game if you want to get very formal, but that's it. And there is always the option to run the models with the free 9th Age or Kings of War rules. TL;DR: There is no point selling rulebooks if fewer and fewer people buy them in favor of using another game's ruleset.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:55
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Safety Factor posted:The will to appeal to a broader audience may indeed motivate the shift to a more Manichean and positive 40k. GW has always tried to grow and that's fine. One could even argue the Tau were created solely for that reason. But that may be the most radical change we've seen and it sacrifices, in my humble yet pretty awesome opinion, much of the tone, the flavour of what brought many of us to the hobby in the first place. The Tau bringing what many perceive to be anime (though I totally made my Tau anime because of the robots) influence into the game is no different than the initial crop of pop culture icons from the game's inception.
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Mar 29, 2017 23:59
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Chill la Chill posted:The Tau bringing what many perceive to be anime (though I totally made my Tau anime because of the robots) influence into the game is no different than the initial crop of pop culture icons from the game's inception. Ever since 3rd Edition, the little details like this have died off. Astartes chapters got Flanderized into one-note factions. Chaos got whipped with the Nerf-bat repeatedly. Rule of Awesome replaced grimdark as the people writing the setting gradually forgot not to take it too seriously. Necrons got fleshed out (pardon the pun) and then retconned. The story of the Horus Heresy got turned from a monster story writ large into a Great Tragedy with the fallen primarchs turned into Misunderstood Tragic Figures. My own viewpoint is that these changes don't actually impact the baseline level of grimdark at all. That level dropped dramatically the very instant Tau became a thing. I'd like to have my quirky, so-grim-it-gets-funny setting back, but if I can't have it, frankly I'm totally fine with what we have, where Rule of Awesome applies, because I don't see recent events through the same lens. Yes, RG is back. Yes, maybe the Aeldari have a path ahead that might let them avoid their doom. Yes, this recent book ended on a hopeful statement of the Imperium riding a wave of blood to a new future. But we have also lost Cadia, the Maelstrom and Eye of Terror are both swollen to massive proportions, Ghazgkull is still out there assembling that GREAT WAAAGH, the Hive Fleets are still inbound to eat everyone,... I could go on, but the threats are still there and they're still species-level. The Galaxy is still a vast place where you will not be missed.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:08
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Safety Factor posted:40K has been getting less and less "grimdark" ever since 3rd Edition. Go back and look at the original setting. Whole sectors of space were cut off for generations by warp storms. Space Marine chapters were effectively independent mercenary companies (who had their own Military Police, because posthuman soldiers on a drunken rager need to be kept in check). Mottos on vehicles and helmets in Astartes and Guard forces alike included "Born to Kill," "Smile as you Go Under," and so forth. Look at the early artwork- it's post-apocalyptic in a way that nothing has been since 2000. Is it really ever grimdark when the plight of the common man feels like nothing more than a sterile statistic with zero emotional impact on account of its absolute banality with zero empathetic connection? Sure stuff from the third edition reads pretty grim, but there's no real punch in the gut from it because the common human is faceless. What I want is just some proper world building instead of leaving an empty, dull, underdeveloped universe with the thin excuse of "it's a sandbox". Gimme a novel series without any powerful individual or even a soldier, but a completely vulnerable citizen living in the middle of a Hive World and dealing with the issues that arise from the plight of the average man. Then maybe those statistics will have meaning when another faceless bajillion die. But without empathy, any change in the fluff resulting in mass death with have absolutely zero weight behind it unless it involves your/my dudes getting hit. Although in regards to literature, focusing on key individuals high up in the organization of the major factions is a SERIOUS problem that must absolutely end and what is making the Horus Heresy so awful. 40K performs best when it is about small stories set within the universe that ultimately achieve and change nothing. Not huge novel serious with M.K. Shyamalan "revelations" which are completely unnecessary and do nothing but stir up drama in the fanbase and destroy the importance of small scale character pieces. The best thing about the old Black Library was how virtually every book was about something and someone completely different.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:12
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Grimdark is going away. AoS moved to high fantasy and tossed it's grimdark element away when it lost the Empire and vampire counts etc. 40K is following AoS in the rules side and I'd imagine the flavor will change in a similar way. I don't know how much of the Age of the Emperors fluff will resemble 40k at all.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:15
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Safety Factor posted:The will to appeal to a broader audience may indeed motivate the shift to a more Manichean and positive 40k. GW has always tried to grow and that's fine. One could even argue the Tau were created solely for that reason. But that may be the most radical change we've seen and it sacrifices, in my humble yet pretty awesome opinion, much of the tone, the flavour of what brought many of us to the hobby in the first place. Thing is, the tone has grown to be really disturbing to an onlooker. It's, to a point, presenting an unholy fusion of the catholic church at its worst and Nazi Germany as awesome, heroic, good guys. That is cargo culting as its finest, and while I can excuse old timers for not realising it, since they started out when the satire was actual satire, it's still sketchy as hell.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:17
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TKIY posted:Grimdark is going away. AoS moved to high fantasy and tossed it's grimdark element away when it lost the Empire and vampire counts etc. [Depth and breadth] The great appeal of 40k for me has been the richness, rather than depth, of the setting. That's not to denigrate the longer stories and fantastic novels that have sprung up, but the thing that really caught my eye back in the dying years of Rogue Trader and the early years of 2nd edition were the bits of colour text. Few were more than three or four paragraphs, and virtually none were connected. They covered everything from new scribes being told to rejoice, as their work would never be finished; tank crews chatting about an unfortunate crew whose heating broke down; hiveworlds that died in a single night to a rebellious population; and sorcerors storing their favourite memories in crystal so he wouldn't go mad (again). None of my favourites really involved 'Boy's Own' action stuff. Instead, each created a worm's eye view of the inhabitants of this horrible time period. In a few short sentences, the writers would conjure worlds and cultures and characters that really sparked my imagination. They helped to create a sense of the galaxy as a vast and mostly empty place, dotted about with jewel-like planets that were all unique, rich and individual. The background didn't go into them, and that left them open to make your own stories. These stories were tiny details in a vast and uncaring galaxy, and I loved that sense of scale and potential for creativity. The individuals didn't sound ground-down or miserable. They were doing things that were normal and everyday for them – and that lack of awareness about the pointlessness or fragility of their lives is what helped to create pathos. Importantly, it wasn't 'grimdark' as it has subsequently been caricatured. 40k's roots aren't nihilistic – while there has always been the sense of an oppressive Imperium – horrible, inadequate and doomed – that was very rooted in the real-world politics of the 80s. There was a similar tongue-in-cheek understanding that you weren't meant to root for the crumbling authoritarian Imperium or its spokespeople. Just like 2000AD's Judge Dredd, 40k was a darkly humorous mirror. The crux, then, was the shift from breadth – a broad canvas to create your own characters and stamp out your own campaigns and stories; to depth – looking into the details and losing that god's eye view of the galaxy. 40k moved from a personal viewpoint to the third-person archetype characters – savage Ghazgkhull, noble Dante and so forth – and in so doing, started down the line of giving people more and more detail. Colour schemes, awards, campaigns, histories – all very cool, and I certainly gobbled it up; but that brought with it a shift in tone. +++ I prefer the sense of 'unknown setting to explore and create' to the 'ongoing narrative' for two reasons. The first is that narratives need to have arcs and closure to remain compelling. However much you love a story, there is a natural length to it. We all know a book, a film or television series that went on too long. The second is that the sense of a crumbling empire appeals to the historian in me. Because early 40k was more concerned with setting a tone than with filling in the details, there was always a sense of something more to find out – archaeology as opposed to narrative. So, I'd reject the idea that there's a deliberate split between 'grimdark, nihilistic, mature' 40k of RT and 'energetic, comic-book superheroes' of the current era, because I think that's unfair. There were always hints of hope in 40k, it's always been gloriously over-the-top, and it's always revelled in being self-aware enough not to get too po-faced and earnest. Beyond hoping for a cleaner game in rules terms, I'll be blithely continuing with my own little corners of the galaxy. The background is collaborative. If you don't like the direction GW are taking it, drop down from the god's eye view and find your way into the underhive warrens and echoing halls of the everyday inhabitants. Whatever happens between the semi-mythical heroes and villains of the story, you'll never hear about it – except in half-truths, irrelevant legends and propaganda – and the only certainties are that there'll always be someone (probably a bit scabby) with a rusty shiv, ready to kill you for your shirt. Importantly, there will always remain an oppressive, doomed feeling to the galaxy – whoever 'wins' is going to find their victory turn to ashes; and the galaxy fall into war again. After all, the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:16
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Without going into too much detail about it, because honestly I might need the money one day, there was a previous commissioning editor at the Black Library who at one point was making a push towards getting some writers to do some shorts/novels about the setting away from the battle field. Some people had some ideas and pitches accepted only to have the offers rescinded when they made the decision that all warhammer novels needed to have a battle element to them, which led to the spacemarine battles series.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:17
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TKIY posted:Grimdark is going away. AoS moved to high fantasy and tossed it's grimdark element away when it lost the Empire and vampire counts etc. Exactly, things change for better or worse, and you cannot please everyone while chasing the next cash infusion. All I ask is don't piss on me and tell me it's raining. The setting had a tone, for a VERY long time, and to many of us that was it's hook and why it was successful. It's within GWs rights to change it, just don't tell that it's still 40k. It isn't. This is going to feel like how WFB players felt in the end, the ones who armies DIDN'T get outright deleted.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:17
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ijyt posted:What I want is just some proper world building instead of leaving an empty, dull, underdeveloped universe with the thin excuse of "it's a sandbox". Gimme a novel series without any powerful individual or even a soldier, but a completely vulnerable citizen living in the middle of a Hive World and dealing with the issues that arise from the plight of the average man. Then maybe those statistics will have meaning when another faceless bajillion die. But without empathy, any change in the fluff resulting in mass death with have absolutely zero weight behind it unless it involves your/my dudes getting hit. That's basically what I tried to do with 40k roleplaying (via a modified Inquisitor system) before I realized that I was rewriting everything wholesale and that my time would be better spent elsewhere. Ultimately though, while I don't have any love for 40k anymore, it's not really so much that 40k has gotten worse (although it has) as that I'm not 12 years old anymore. Even looking back at the stuff from when I liked 40k, I just have to shake my head and laugh at how bad my taste was back then.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:17
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ijyt posted:Exactly, things change for better or worse, and you cannot please everyone while chasing the next cash infusion. I suppose you may consider me one of those people who was resistant to the idea of the setting moving forward in terms of story. For a long time I have been committed to the idea that it is a setting and not a story, therefor not in need of advancement. It was two minutes to midnight for literally decades for a reason - the Imperium stood on the precipice of oblivion, a long road set in motion by the Horus Heresy. The setting itself, dystopian and grim, lent itself to countless stories, both hopeful and hopeless. The whole universe of 40k has revolved around the fortunes, fates and mishaps of the Imperium. For myself, the darkness was enticing. But here we have something that challenges this ingrained attitude. New content, new developments, new story. Of course, I only speak as someone who is invested in the Imperium's side of the setting. My interest in Chaos is not as strong, but it still represents a major part of how things are in 40k. I care what either side is up to because they are both each other's worst enemy. Their destinies are intertwined. The reawakening of Guilliman was a major and irrevocable change to the setting that was one of those things I, among others, felt apprehensive about (and had done, about the general concept of bringing back the loyalist primarchs, for years). Such a strong narrative shift will not only affect things within the game and the community, but would also set a precedent for the future. The way things were won't be how they are any more. I suppose it's an inevitability, really. Sooner or later, something had to change. Had to 'progress'. Not that I'm saying that I thought it was necessary, mark you. Except, you already know that by now. So. The setting has moved on, albeit treading over ground already trodden... and yet not. But we won't go into that. What exactly is the point to resisting at this juncture? Stubbornness? Maybe. But let's get to the point. I have next to no influence on the setting*. I don't have the ear of any of the development team. I have no real way to conform universal canon to how I like it (and I shouldn't, with the exception of my own scribblings and personal 'head-canon'). The setting will move on with or without me. I can be the rock, immovable and largely unchanging, or I can be the water. Adapt to what I like (or tolerate), jettison what I don't. So, Guilliman now walks again? Okay. Cadia is gone? That's a shame but... okay. Do I have to like all of the details? Not really - for instance, I ignore 90% of the Clan Raukaan supplement as canon (but there are still small parts that I can let lie). I can live with these changes decently enough. It's not easy to dig yourself out of an entrenched position but the quote I have kept in my signature for years seems quite relevant right now... TL;DR - The world will always move on. With you, or without you.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:19
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The fact that GW resurrected the Necromunda rules apparently unaltered for their new game doesn't give me hope they'll learn anything from previous games. We have 30 years of development they could have applied.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:21
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Avenging Dentist posted:That's basically what I tried to do with 40k roleplaying (via a modified Inquisitor system) before I realized that I was rewriting everything wholesale and that my time would be better spent elsewhere. Ultimately though, while I don't have any love for 40k anymore, it's not really so much that 40k has gotten worse (although it has) as that I'm not 12 years old anymore. Even looking back at the stuff from when I liked 40k, I just have to shake my head and laugh at how bad my taste was back then. The problem is no one person (or group of people) has any right to dictate to anyone else what 40k is or isn't. Games Workshop doesn't even have that right, and they MAKE the game. Telling someone the game they are playing isn't 40k is like telling a gaming group they're playing D&D wrong because it isn't 2nd Edition. If you don't like the direction the game is going, that's your prerogative. But it doesn't give you the authority to tell people that the game they may be enjoying isn't 40k. It still is. Whether you want to continue playing it is up to you. If you have friends that feel the same way, there is nothing stopping you from playing whatever version of the game suits you. If you want to ragequit because the setting no longer matches your sensibilities, again, your prerogative. Just remember....whatever happens, the galaxy will not miss you.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:21
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40k novel: The Jungle in a hive world. 40k novel: Canticle for Leibowitz. Safety Factor posted:40K has been getting less and less "grimdark" ever since 3rd Edition. Go back and look at the original setting. Whole sectors of space were cut off for generations by warp storms. Space Marine chapters were effectively independent mercenary companies (who had their own Military Police, because posthuman soldiers on a drunken rager need to be kept in check). Mottos on vehicles and helmets in Astartes and Guard forces alike included "Born to Kill," "Smile as you Go Under," and so forth. Look at the early artwork- it's post-apocalyptic in a way that nothing has been since 2000. Thanks for the insight. I started right past that, in 4e, so I only ever hear about and see idealized versions of the older fluff. I ascribe much of it with what was then the current pop culture ideals, and I'm sure it would've been different had 40k been started in, say, the booming economic internet powerhouse of the US in the 90s. Maybe they could've used a more '80s style of hyperviolent and darker anime instead? It existed, hell, the whole gundam series before Gundam Wing was rather dark in a bleak war-torn environment. But I can't fault them for wanting the more heroic good guy mobile suit anime look at the turn of the century. I only ever knew the 40k as it was then, and as far as I can remember, the satire of 40k was already well underway when I frequently visited Dakka and 4chan for turning into the thing it once used to make fun of.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:22
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Ashcans posted:The fact that GW resurrected the Necromunda rules apparently unaltered for their new game doesn't give me hope they'll learn anything from previous games. We have 30 years of development they could have applied. I think a generation gap is in play here as well. What is the average age of the people upset about the changes we've seen and are allegedly getting soon? 40-ish? Almost certainly over 30. I'm 47 myself. I consider Die Hard one of the best action movies ever made. It had a believable main character. He survived and killed the bad guys because he had training and experience, and he drat well took cover when he was being shot at. Compare that to the action movies being made in the last 10 years or so. The difference is stark. GW has noticed as well. They're moving from the grim darkness that appeals to the older players who grew up when Clint Eastwood was still a relevant action star to a more bombastic setting that appeals more to younger players that really enjoyed the Transformers movies. Younger players give you blank stares when you compare a game between 2 Guard armies to Hamburger Hill or Apocalypse Now. You MIGHT get some recognition if you mention Saving Private Ryan, but no guarantee. Simply put, what the new generation of players find entertaining is very different than what the older generation likes. GW is recognizing that, and shifting their flagship product to reflect what younger customers like in their entertainment.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:22
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Mango Polo posted:GW is recognizing that, and shifting their flagship product to reflect what younger customers like in their entertainment.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:26
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Mango Polo posted:I suppose you may consider me one of those people who was resistant to the idea of the setting moving forward in terms of story. For a long time I have been committed to the idea that it is a setting and not a story, therefor not in need of advancement. It was two minutes to midnight for literally decades for a reason - the Imperium stood on the precipice of oblivion, a long road set in motion by the Horus Heresy. The setting itself, dystopian and grim, lent itself to countless stories, both hopeful and hopeless. The whole universe of 40k has revolved around the fortunes, fates and mishaps of the Imperium. For myself, the darkness was enticing. That's a big shitpost.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:28
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Chill la Chill posted:Well they certainly aren't doing it right when the Custodes aren't doing side-relaxed and front lat spread poses like Jojo characters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3k8g5oX97E
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Mar 30, 2017 00:28
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TTerrible posted:That's a big shitpost. For you.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:27
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Chill la Chill posted:Well they certainly aren't doing it right when the Custodes aren't doing side-relaxed and front lat spread poses like Jojo characters. Here's what I think. I don't like when there is no advancement of the setting. Yes, I've heard the idea that 40k is not a story but instead a setting (that stories are told within). I don't disagree, but I'll also say that it's hard to get invested in any story if it doesn't have any impact on the setting (ie doesn't change anything beyond that system/planet). WWI and WWII radically changed the world we live in (our own setting), yet those are collection of real-life stories. Problem for 40k is that it can't get much more grimdark than it already was without everything falling apart. If the Imperium was to survive, it seems it really did need Guilliman to return and a small Eldar alliance. Otherwise, Abaddon would have taken Terra fairly easy this time around, Emps would have died, Chaos would have destroyed all order in the galaxy, and nothing strong enough would remain to stop the Tyranids/Orks/Necrons from mopping up whatever remains. So I am (for now) OK with how Gathering Storm has developed. Could it have been done better? Of course. The whole thing seemed like a huge sweep of developments for releases of just 9 models total (though they are nice models). But I do think that things had to get better before the Imperium... as long as they get worse. If the future is just Guilliman and his armies curbstomping all who stand before him, it's going to get boring real quick. But if every other faction gets some nice counterpunches in, this is an appropriate development. And the galaxy is still in way worse straits than in 30k. The Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, and Daemon Primarch led-Chaos are all on the prowl, and every one of these factions should have some time in the sun to beat some Imperial skulls. So to say the Grimdark is gone seems premature. The Imperium is no longer on a knife's edge, but at the same time there are WAY too many threats for anyone to argue Imperial victory is inevitable now.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:28
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This is the only canon I care about in the 40k universe.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:30
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Iceclaw posted:Thing is, the tone has grown to be really disturbing to an onlooker. It's, to a point, presenting an unholy fusion of the catholic church at its worst and Nazi Germany as awesome, heroic, good guys. That is cargo culting as its finest, and while I can excuse old timers for not realising it, since they started out when the satire was actual satire, it's still sketchy as hell. Chill la Chill posted:40k novel: The Jungle in a hive world. 40k novel: Canticle for Leibowitz. 40k is far too complex for me to articulate why it was so interesting, and why whatever this new setting they're cooking up is so different. But I will try to hit a major point. Grimdark is not just about the bodycount, or the corruption of the Imperium, the stakes involved, or even the lack of hope. Ignoring the slew of literary problems with GW's handling of such things, GW is keeping all of that with their new fluff (except the hope part). Instead, they are getting rid of one of the key themes of 40k's macro-setting. Grimdark is all of those things mentioned before; but at the heart of it is the theme that what humanity has lost, can never be redone. This sense of tragedy resonates, from the very opening blurb of 40k (which they're going to have to change to fit with this new universe they are creating). Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods. It is the core around which everything else fits, and informs and infuses the entire mood of the setting. Tell me, how does the revival of Guilliman or the sudden, McGuffin creation of better Angels fit with this cardinal value and macro-direction of the setting as it was? At this point in the story 'progression' we might as well have skipped the 10,000 years and retconned it so that Gullimen never was crippled for all the meaning and heft his death/stasis has had. People say they need hope in the setting to not be completely turned off. I agree to an extent. But hope in the dark millennium comes from the more down to earth elements of flesh and blood, fire and steel, faith and grit of the sons and servants of the distant gods/demigods that came before. While they are no longer with us, we continue the fight in their name, even against such powerful darkness encompassing us, even amongst the unmitigated eternal carnage and slaughter and laughter of thirsting gods.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:30
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tallkidwithglasses posted:Enjoyment of things is subjective and it seems a little spergy to try to come up with some sort of KPI to analyze the objective best way to spend disposable income??? Like, you can't quantify enjoyment, dude. *eats mcdonalds, shits on living room floor, plays AoS*
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Mar 30, 2017 00:32
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Also, those butts? GW still smellin' em.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:33
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ijyt posted:If you don't like the direction the game is going, that's your prerogative. But it doesn't give you the authority to tell people that the game they may be enjoying isn't 40k. I don't think anyone is making that sort of definitional argument. The only arguments I've seen against 40k are that it's a poorly-designed system (by a variety of subjective and objective measures) and that the fiction is unappealing to a lot of people. Like, nobody says that St. Anger isn't a Metallica album; they just say it's bad. At most, if someone says, "This isn't 40k", what they're saying is, "This isn't what drew me to 40k," and I think it's a bit disingenuous to intentionally misinterpret a metaphorical statement like that.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:33
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Mango Polo posted:But I do think that things had to get better before the Imperium... as long as they get worse. If the future is just Guilliman and his armies curbstomping all who stand before him, it's going to get boring real quick. But if every other faction gets some nice counterpunches in, this is an appropriate development. You just described AoS's plot here. That is not a vote of confidence.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:33
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Models: still mediocre Costs: still outrageous Rules: still utter poo poo WHY ARE YOU STILL ANGRY ABOUT GW FAAAAAAAAAAART
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Mar 30, 2017 00:34
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Crackbone posted:Models: still mediocre Sorry to see you go, dude. Seriously. I hate seeing people get so disillusioned with something they love that they decide to just drop it. I wasn't having a go at you. Didn't want to imply any personal enmity. (That and I don't remember exactly how it went  )Hopefully you follow the development of the story and find something you want to come back for.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:35
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mi yag
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Mar 30, 2017 00:35
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Avenging Dentist posted:I don't think anyone is making that sort of definitional argument. The only arguments I've seen against 40k are that it's a poorly-designed system (by a variety of subjective and objective measures) and that the fiction is unappealing to a lot of people. Like, nobody says that St. Anger isn't a Metallica album; they just say it's bad. At least wait to see what's up before going away on rumours. I have been holding a candle out for Templars ever since they were rolled. Now it seems they won't even have anything else. Tough, makes me sad, but I'll see where this hobby is going. Hastings tolds us a rumour of how he perceived things. 9 months ago. One thing is certain. If the new SM comes to pass and it's all Guilliman "gene-seed" I'm done with the hobby 40k wise.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:36
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To me (and I've been in and out of the hobby since 3rd Edition), what makes the Dylan Thomas poem--and by analogy the 40k setting--so compelling is that the light is dying, so to speak. Thomas writes: Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light And what stirs my soul about that verse is the defiance it embodies. Night falls inevitably. But to rage against it nonetheless, when weaker than you were, and knowing that you cannot change the movement of the heavens, is inspiring. It is the same, to me, with the 40k universe. The grand ideals of the Great Crusade have been cast down and perverted. The Imperium has lost much of its technological and other progress. The once-proud Emperor is now a corpse-god, bound to the Golden Throne and enduring an eternity of torment in order to seal the daemon-infested webway gate at the heart of the Imperial Palace that his son Magnus inadvertently tore asunder. The Imperium of Man is beset on all sides, and from within, by enemies. It has developed into an incredibly oppressive, theocratic, authoritarian regime. The doomsday clock is ticking ever closer to midnight. But it is not midnight yet. The galaxy should be certainly doomed, but it isnt. And not because of the bold actions of a few cartoonishly important heroes, but because of the millions of people fighting and dying for every inch, in an uncaring galaxy, every day, for ten thousand years. That is why it matters "that Eisenhorn stabbed Quixos with the reforged Barbarisater in the caves of Farness Beta," that "the Tanith 1st (and Only) made their epic stand outside the gates of the Civitas Beati," and that "the Ultramarines 1st Coy. died to a man underneath the northern polar fortress of Macragge." No individual life or death will swing the fate of mankind, but knowing that and still making the ultimate sacrifice anyway is that much more meaningful. Knowing your life won't sway the balance but giving it anyway, in the face of utter darkness, takes the highest kind of courage. The idea of staring into the abyss and spitting defiantly at the thirsting gods who stare back,is what has kept me invested in the story of this universe for the last 10-15 years. The clock ticks onward, and no one man (or Primarch) can hold back the hand before it strikes midnight. The Imperium has no choice but to pile bodies in front of it, jam the clockwork with the bodies of its heroes and commoners, in the hopes of staving off that final, last tick. I agree that there should be hope. But hope here is a candle sputtering in a vast, windy darkness, yet somehow refusing to go out. Courage and defiance in the face of seemingly impossible odds. Once one man, or a few, seem to inexplicably turn the tide, it devalues the billions who over ten millennia could not. A ray of hope is necessary, but only a ray. We are not now that strength which in old days Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. I would love to hear whether others agree or disagree. 
Lord_Hambrose fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 00:38
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Oh please. Most stories are small scale conflicts that have nothing to do with the state of the setting at large.
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Mar 30, 2017 00:41
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