Death Thread 2017 - GW is Cool, and Good - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Death Thread 2017 - GW is Cool, and Good

Avenging Dentist: Oct 1, 2005; oh my god is that a circular saw that does not go in my mouth aaaaagh

ijyt posted:

Seriously. I hate seeing people get so disillusioned with something they love that they decide to just drop it.

On the other side of this though lies the sunk cost fallacy (and the related phenomena of aspirational gaming and "bad gaming's better than no gaming"). Even if 40k remained perfectly static, many people would eventually drop it because they've grown and changed as people. While 40k requires a pretty substantial investment of time and money, if you're not getting much out of it anymore, you shouldn't feel bad for giving up on it and doing something that you enjoy more.

ijyt posted:

At least wait to see what's up before going away on rumours.

I've been out for over a decade. I only even got back into following what GW does because of how hilariously they hosed up the AoS launch (the "legacy" rules for WHFB armies were probably the most laughable of them all).

ijyt posted:

Tough, makes me sad, but I'll see where this hobby is going.

I stopped considering GW as "the hobby" a while ago, and now that I'm getting back into tabletop stuff, I've instead chosen to get involved in games that fit my interests better (namely, better models, smaller startup costs, and better competitive support). Even if GW turned around and became a truly "good" company, I still wouldn't get back into their ecosystem because they just don't do what I'm personally interested in anymore.

Avenging Dentist fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Mar 30, 2017

# ? Mar 30, 2017 00:41

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# ? May 16, 2024 16:22

ijyt: Apr 10, 2012

Avenging Dentist posted:

On the other side of this though lies the sunk cost fallacy (and the related phenomena of aspirational gaming and "bad gaming's better than no gaming"). Even if 40k remained perfectly static, many people would eventually drop it because they've grown and changed as people. While 40k requires a pretty substantial investment of time and money, if you're not getting much out of it anymore, you shouldn't feel bad for giving up on it and doing something that you enjoy more.

Honestly, now that I've thought about it, and written then deleted a ton of posts. Its not the game, or the setting I've come to be unable to tolerate.

Its people seeking to change it. Its forums. Its the modern online posters, and its the generational gap.

I mean no offense, and that is why I'll be adding a lot of people to my ignore list (this is the ONLY forum I need to use it on, funny for such a 'well moderated' forum...) but thats what its come to.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 00:44

Mango Polo: Aug 4, 2007

Avenging Dentist posted:

While 40k requires a pretty substantial investment of time and money, if you're not getting much out of it anymore, you shouldn't feel bad for giving up on it and doing something that you enjoy more.

As I was reading the thread discussing the hero-centric trend in recent story developments, and a shift towards more hopeful, less grimdark tone, something had occurred to me. While the tone of Guilliman's return suggests that the Imperium might finally get a fighting chance to prevail, or at least to push back the threats, at its core WH40K is a dark setting where hope it at a premium (and when it exists, it tends to feed Tzeentch). This created an apparent discrepancy between the hopeful tone of Gathering Storm III (the ending thereof), and what we know about the 30 years of accumulated lore and atmosphere.

Then, it struck me. What if Guilliman's crusade-to-be is not a movement to save the Imperium, but a last-gasp effort that would see the remaining resources at Terra's command expended in a Quixotic quest to reconquer the galaxy, only to fall victim to overstretch, invasions, plagues, and what not?

There was a real-world parallel to this in Western history - the attempted reconquest of Italy, North Africa, and Spain by Eastern Roman Emperor Justinian in VIth century. While successful for a time (and achieving a number of spectacular military victories), Justinian's conquests were already fraying within years of his death, and his territorial gains were completely reversed less than a century after his death, while leaving the Empire in dire financial straits, weakened militarily, and without a strong dynastic line of succession (given that Justinian's successors were considerably weaker, which led to a major crisis half a century later).

Now, there was more to the historical precedent, including the early VIIth century Byzantine-Persian total war, the rise of the Arabs, and other factors, but for the purpose of this analysis, we can disregard them. We are, after all, discussing a fictional universe which is not by any means retelling real-world history.

So, back to 40K.

Guilliman restarts a Crusade, followed by everything the Imperium can muster, and maybe has some successes. The Crusade overextends its reach, or perhaps runs out of steam. The Imperium is back where it was before, and possibly even worse off, since it spent much of its precious reserves on attempting to push back the darkness. This seems very much in line with 40K ethos.

Here is the kicker. GW fluff writers have been known to partake in historical, literary, and mythological inspirations, sometimes employing clever puns or in-jokes. I would not put it past GW to do something similar here - especially since there is an interesting connection.

You see, Justinian was not a military commander during Byzantine reconquest of the West. Instead, this duty fell to one of the foremost generals of the time... an Eastern Roman named Belisarius.

Belisarius... which is not at all dissimilar to the name of a prominent player in the Gathering Storm series - Belisarius Cawl, responsible for the resurrection of Guilliman and directly involved with the events of the Crusade.

Now, it might be a coincidence, but I would not put it past GW to use the name as a subtle hint of what is to come, while keeping with the inherently tragic nature of the universe. This would be very... fitting for our beloved grimdark.

So, what do you think? Does this hold water, or do you think it is most likely a coincidence?

# ? Mar 30, 2017 00:45

Crackbone: May 23, 2003; Vlaada is my co-pilot.

I SNIFF BUTTS LIKE GW
\

# ? Mar 30, 2017 00:50

Safety Factor: Oct 31, 2009; Grimey Drawer

Lord_Hambrose posted:

To me (and I've been in and out of the hobby since 3rd Edition), what makes the Dylan Thomas poem--and by analogy the 40k setting--so compelling is that the light is dying, so to speak.

Thomas writes:
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light

And what stirs my soul about that verse is the defiance it embodies. Night falls inevitably. But to rage against it nonetheless, when weaker than you were, and knowing that you cannot change the movement of the heavens, is inspiring. It is the same, to me, with the 40k universe. The grand ideals of the Great Crusade have been cast down and perverted. The Imperium has lost much of its technological and other progress. The once-proud Emperor is now a corpse-god, bound to the Golden Throne and enduring an eternity of torment in order to seal the daemon-infested webway gate at the heart of the Imperial Palace that his son Magnus inadvertently tore asunder. The Imperium of Man is beset on all sides, and from within, by enemies. It has developed into an incredibly oppressive, theocratic, authoritarian regime. The doomsday clock is ticking ever closer to midnight.

But it is not midnight yet. The galaxy should be certainly doomed, but it isnt. And not because of the bold actions of a few cartoonishly important heroes, but because of the millions of people fighting and dying for every inch, in an uncaring galaxy, every day, for ten thousand years. That is why it matters "that Eisenhorn stabbed Quixos with the reforged Barbarisater in the caves of Farness Beta," that "the Tanith 1st (and Only) made their epic stand outside the gates of the Civitas Beati," and that "the Ultramarines 1st Coy. died to a man underneath the northern polar fortress of Macragge." No individual life or death will swing the fate of mankind, but knowing that and still making the ultimate sacrifice anyway is that much more meaningful. Knowing your life won't sway the balance but giving it anyway, in the face of utter darkness, takes the highest kind of courage. The idea of staring into the abyss and spitting defiantly at the thirsting gods who stare back,is what has kept me invested in the story of this universe for the last 10-15 years. The clock ticks onward, and no one man (or Primarch) can hold back the hand before it strikes midnight. The Imperium has no choice but to pile bodies in front of it, jam the clockwork with the bodies of its heroes and commoners, in the hopes of staving off that final, last tick.

I agree that there should be hope. But hope here is a candle sputtering in a vast, windy darkness, yet somehow refusing to go out. Courage and defiance in the face of seemingly impossible odds. Once one man, or a few, seem to inexplicably turn the tide, it devalues the billions who over ten millennia could not. A ray of hope is necessary, but only a ray.

We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

I would love to hear whether others agree or disagree.

The grim darkness of despair is a meme that misrepresents substancial peripheral bits of the setting. Logistically, it just couldn't be that bleak and have continued on for as long as it did. It had to be at least a semi-stable system. This time I'll build the case around Guard Logistics.

Suppose we had a world. A fairly typical Imperial world in many ways congruent to our own. Nice, tolerably stable, reasonably industrialised. Keeps up with its tithes.

Wham! let's hit it with an Ork Waaugh. A nice healthy waaugh, that requires global mobilisation to avoid imminent overrun of the planet. Governor Gondorius calls for aid. The munitorium assesses this and dispatches several army groups from the neighbouring half dozen systems, including the Rohanicus system naturally. Was a time when the fluff would note that an average global conflict like this would take a few years to sort out after which poor Gondorius' world would likely need a generation or two to recover and start tithing again.

Okay, so, to make this stable over the greater Imperium we draw the notion that worlds are collapsed under planet wide assaults like this on average no more than once every three or so centuries. If they got ploughed under much more often than that they couldn't regenerate fast enough to sustain the mutual defence system. That's three hundred years of relative peace and prosperity for your average imperial citizen. That's actually not bad for a setting billed as 'constant warfare'.

Yes, there's pretty much a war somewhere within your planets muster radius every generation that draws off so many promising sons and daughters to their dooms. Tragic in it's own way, but not nearly as nonsensically bleak as some people like to put it.

To think of this another way, pick some famous campaign, like one of the Armageddon ones. Look up the orders of battle with respect to just how many world committed their guard tithe to that conflict. Figure that to justify this the Munitorum must've figured all those other worlds were relatively safe and secure enough to draw off all their best defenders to rally to the worth of Armageddon.

Enormous tracts of the Emperors millions of worlds must have spent most of the last ten thousand years in relative peace and prosperity.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 00:51

Mango Polo: Aug 4, 2007

Safety Factor posted:

The grim darkness of despair is a meme that misrepresents substancial peripheral bits of the setting. Logistically, it just couldn't be that bleak and have continued on for as long as it did. It had to be at least a semi-stable system. This time I'll build the case around Guard Logistics.

Suppose we had a world. A fairly typical Imperial world in many ways congruent to our own. Nice, tolerably stable, reasonably industrialised. Keeps up with its tithes.

Wham! let's hit it with an Ork Waaugh. A nice healthy waaugh, that requires global mobilisation to avoid imminent overrun of the planet. Governor Gondorius calls for aid. The munitorium assesses this and dispatches several army groups from the neighbouring half dozen systems, including the Rohanicus system naturally. Was a time when the fluff would note that an average global conflict like this would take a few years to sort out after which poor Gondorius' world would likely need a generation or two to recover and start tithing again.

Okay, so, to make this stable over the greater Imperium we draw the notion that worlds are collapsed under planet wide assaults like this on average no more than once every three or so centuries. If they got ploughed under much more often than that they couldn't regenerate fast enough to sustain the mutual defence system. That's three hundred years of relative peace and prosperity for your average imperial citizen. That's actually not bad for a setting billed as 'constant warfare'.

Yes, there's pretty much a war somewhere within your planets muster radius every generation that draws off so many promising sons and daughters to their dooms. Tragic in it's own way, but not nearly as nonsensically bleak as some people like to put it.

To think of this another way, pick some famous campaign, like one of the Armageddon ones. Look up the orders of battle with respect to just how many world committed their guard tithe to that conflict. Figure that to justify this the Munitorum must've figured all those other worlds were relatively safe and secure enough to draw off all their best defenders to rally to the worth of Armageddon.

Enormous tracts of the Emperors millions of worlds must have spent most of the last ten thousand years in relative peace and prosperity.

Some kids I knew in high school were into the game. I can only recall that the one who lived around the corner from me had Eldar, though I can't even remember what colours his models were. I think someone else had Ultramarines or maybe Blood Angels.

Anyway, Warhammer 40,000 didn't really interest me at that "golden age" of 12-14 in the early Nineties. Back then I had a Warhammer Fantasy Battle starter, the 4th Edition with the High Elves and Goblins, but never bought anything past that.

To be honest, wargames never really interested me at all, probably because I'm not interested in competitive games. I was more interested in Dungeons & Dragons and other tabletop roleplaying games, though even Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay never made an impression on me at the time.

Later on in high school I had a closer friend who also played 40K, and I learned more about it then, but I seem to recall he was also getting to that age of 16+ where he was still into it but faintly embarrassed by it, so not exactly trying to persuade his other friends to play it. Then he took up fencing and got really into that, so all of his spare time and money was invested in that (and he's been involved in fencing for 20 years, so it was probably the right call).

I didn't really get into 40K until after I'd been out of university for some time and got married. At some point after 2008, I don't remember when or what prompted it, I must have decided I'd give it a go, because I bought a copy of the 5th Edition starter, Assault on Black Reach - but I discovered that same starter all but untouched in 2014, which is when I got into 40K in a serious way.

What finally pushed me over the line was really the Horus Heresy novels. I had never really known that much about the 40K universe - I didn't even know the name Horus, really - but I did know the basic idea of the Chaos Space Marines and the Chaos Gods, and I'd always thought that the Thousand Sons had a cool Egyptian aesthetic. It didn't hurt that Tzeentch had seemed the most interesting of the Chaos Gods even back when I was briefly interested in Warhammer Fantasy Battle; I think there was something about that crescent moon-headed Sorcerer of Tzeentch that caught my eye.

So then, in the context of the Horus Heresy series, I then became aware of the real backstory of the Thousand Sons, and decided I might as well read the novels in order. I read extremely quickly, so I figured it wouldn't take me long to get to the 12th book . . . but then I thought I should try out the audiobook for Horus Rising, since I had a long drive to work. I love the audiobooks, but I'm not always in the mood for them, so it's taken me about 3 years to make it to my current point of being about 2/3 of the way through Deliverance Lost.

But in that time I've become really interested in 30K, at least in terms of collecting and painting models, and who knows what will happen once my wife and I manage to organise our move interstate in the next few months? Maybe I'll get into playing if we're close to a decent store or club down south.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 00:50

ijyt: Apr 10, 2012

Crackbone posted:

Models: still mediocre
Costs: still outrageous
Rules: still utter poo poo

WHY ARE YOU STILL ANGRY ABOUT GW FAAAAAAAAAAART

I never really know how I feel about the whole "it's just a game" line of argument.

On the one hand, it's trivially true. There are any number of things more important. Plenty of people collect WH40K who are doctors, lawyers, surgeons, EMTs, policemen, social workers - there are any number of careers where people make decisions which matter more than everything GW has ever produced every day. So yes, in the scheme of things, it is just toy soldiers. The developments in GW fluff will not annoy me a tenth of as much as certain political developments.

On the other, it is also a shared universe, a significant portion of many people's hard-won disposable income and free time, and a story that matters. It's not entitled or unreasonable to expect a certain level of respect from GW, or to be upset with the direction the setting is going.

There's also the fact that this thread is a space for WH40K discussion, so thoughts along the line of "WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT TOY SOLDIERS WHEN GUNDAMS IS MUCH MORE CONSEQUENTIAL?!?!?!?!?" aren't that constructive.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 00:59

tallkidwithglasses: Feb 7, 2006

Crackbone posted:

I SNIFF BUTTS LIKE GW
\

# ? Mar 30, 2017 00:59

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

I feel like the horror tag is getting less ironic the more posts I see today.

TKIY posted:

Grimdark is going away. AoS moved to high fantasy and tossed it's grimdark element away when it lost the Empire and vampire counts etc.

40K is following AoS in the rules side and I'd imagine the flavor will change in a similar way.

I don't know how much of the Age of the Emperors fluff will resemble 40k at all.

AoS has eternal warfare against blood-soaked lunatics who're somehow slowly poisoning infinity with people who kill humans on the off-chance they're corrupted being the good guys. It's still pretty grimdark, it's just stopped orientating the camera on anyone it's possible to care about (maybe there's human viewpoint characters in the novels but so far basically the only people who show bare skin in AoS are the bad guys who're also mad max villains).

Also the "It's a generational thing, protagonists can't be grounded now" thing is dumb. Fourteen year olds like invincible space marine heroes, did do and always will do. People in their 40s don't have a monopoly on liking characters with flaws.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:01

Ilor: Feb 2, 2008; That's a crit.

Mango Polo posted:

May be a bit of a counter view, but I enjoy 40ks complexity over other systems. I agree that at entry level its good to have a simplified set of rules, but tbh thats achieved by simply limiting what the beginner learns with. The additional special rules, customisation, buffs/debuffs and situational things such as the cover system, nightfighting etc are all what separates it from other games.

Let me introduce you to Infinity, friend...

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:02

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Ilor posted:

Let me introduce you to Infinity, friend...

^^^Infinity is boss and you should play it. If some of the models bug you proxy them with something else because the core mechanics are genuinely brilliant.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:03

Its Rinaldo: Aug 13, 2010; CODS BINCH

ijyt posted:

Sorry to see you go, dude.

Seriously. I hate seeing people get so disillusioned with something they love that they decide to just drop it.

I wasn't having a go at you. Didn't want to imply any personal enmity. (That and I don't remember exactly how it went )

Hopefully you follow the development of the story and find something you want to come back for.

I look at my warhammer fantasy armies (Tomb Kings and WoC) sitting in their cases and play Total Warhammer then look at Age of Sigmar. Then I get sad. Then I go fiddle with my air brush as I practice on sweet robot anime butts in Infinity and I'm less sad

I intentionally don't post in any of the other GW threads because I don't really have anything constructive to say about Fantasy as I'm still legit mad (probably stupidly so) about what happend to WFB and if people are enjoying and making a earnest attempt at enjoying I don't want to piss in their cereal t

Its Rinaldo fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Mar 30, 2017

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:04

ijyt: Apr 10, 2012

spectralent posted:

Also the "It's a generational thing, protagonists can't be grounded now" thing is dumb. Fourteen year olds like invincible space marine heroes, did do and always will do. People in their 40s don't have a monopoly on liking characters with flaws.

Hah! Just this morning I saw a picture of a Tartaros terminator with a reaper autocannon and started making autocannon sounds while pretending I held one, and I'm 37.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:04

Lord_Hambrose: Nov 21, 2008; *a foul hooting fills the air*

Bad Moon posted:

sweet robot anime butts in Infinity and I'm less sad

Yee

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:07

Mango Polo: Aug 4, 2007

spectralent posted:

Also the "It's a generational thing, protagonists can't be grounded now" thing is dumb. Fourteen year olds like invincible space marine heroes, did do and always will do. People in their 40s don't have a monopoly on liking characters with flaws.

I have to admit I enjoy that the story is moving forward more significant now despite the cockups. I started with 40K in 1995 and since then literally nothing has really happenend in 40K, everything was on the brink of destruction, just 5 seconds to midnight, it just needs a small push and everythin will fail etc etc...
No big campaign I participated in (2nd War for Armageddon and the 13th black crusade), despite GW said otherwise, had any impact on anything, it was the status quo ad infinitum, which got cockingly boring after such a long time in the hobby if you like stories and background material in your favorite universe. So GS is a nice change of pace and yes, after the first trilogy the universe looks a little bit less grimdark. But i can foresee some things, that might happen when the story progresses further:
- The Emperor finally dieing, plunging the whole galaxy into darkness until he is reborn
- The 13th black crusade wreaking havoc after that in one half the Imperium, maybe even destroy Terra in the process
- the big waagh that was brewing wreaking the ofter part of the Imperium
- Cypher reaching the rock, getting to Lion el'Johnson but it is revealed that the actual Dark Angels aren't so loyal and were just good at disguising their true allegiance to Chaos (yeah, it's a trope but the Fallen could be the last remnants of the loyal Dark Angels)
- The Tau taking advantage of the situation in the Imperium and starting a new war for more worlds
- The Tyranids finally arriving in full force to battle with everybody

it's just.. there is so much potential for more War and grimdark and cocks at the Moment that the small "light at the end of the tunnel" now is just a mere candle getting snuffed out.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:08

ijyt: Apr 10, 2012

Mango Polo posted:

I think a generation gap is in play here as well.

What is the average age of the people upset about the changes we've seen and are allegedly getting soon?

40-ish? Almost certainly over 30. I'm 47 myself.

Praise Russ! Maybe I'm NOT the oldest guy on this board!

And amen to you. If ever we meet IRL, I owe you an amasec.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:08

Safety Factor: Oct 31, 2009; Grimey Drawer

Mango Polo posted:

Some kids I knew in high school were into the game. I can only recall that the one who lived around the corner from me had Eldar, though I can't even remember what colours his models were. I think someone else had Ultramarines or maybe Blood Angels.

Anyway, Warhammer 40,000 didn't really interest me at that "golden age" of 12-14 in the early Nineties. Back then I had a Warhammer Fantasy Battle starter, the 4th Edition with the High Elves and Goblins, but never bought anything past that.

To be honest, wargames never really interested me at all, probably because I'm not interested in competitive games. I was more interested in Dungeons & Dragons and other tabletop roleplaying games, though even Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay never made an impression on me at the time.

Later on in high school I had a closer friend who also played 40K, and I learned more about it then, but I seem to recall he was also getting to that age of 16+ where he was still into it but faintly embarrassed by it, so not exactly trying to persuade his other friends to play it. Then he took up fencing and got really into that, so all of his spare time and money was invested in that (and he's been involved in fencing for 20 years, so it was probably the right call).

I didn't really get into 40K until after I'd been out of university for some time and got married. At some point after 2008, I don't remember when or what prompted it, I must have decided I'd give it a go, because I bought a copy of the 5th Edition starter, Assault on Black Reach - but I discovered that same starter all but untouched in 2014, which is when I got into 40K in a serious way.

What finally pushed me over the line was really the Horus Heresy novels. I had never really known that much about the 40K universe - I didn't even know the name Horus, really - but I did know the basic idea of the Chaos Space Marines and the Chaos Gods, and I'd always thought that the Thousand Sons had a cool Egyptian aesthetic. It didn't hurt that Tzeentch had seemed the most interesting of the Chaos Gods even back when I was briefly interested in Warhammer Fantasy Battle; I think there was something about that crescent moon-headed Sorcerer of Tzeentch that caught my eye.

So then, in the context of the Horus Heresy series, I then became aware of the real backstory of the Thousand Sons, and decided I might as well read the novels in order. I read extremely quickly, so I figured it wouldn't take me long to get to the 12th book . . . but then I thought I should try out the audiobook for Horus Rising, since I had a long drive to work. I love the audiobooks, but I'm not always in the mood for them, so it's taken me about 3 years to make it to my current point of being about 2/3 of the way through Deliverance Lost.

But in that time I've become really interested in 30K, at least in terms of collecting and painting models, and who knows what will happen once my wife and I manage to organise our move interstate in the next few months? Maybe I'll get into playing if we're close to a decent store or club down south.

I grew up next to Salem, MA (aka where the original witch hunters came from) and went to school there as a kid. It's the kind of place that is utterly unto itself, and hard to describe to outsiders until you've seen it. I guess Portland, OR or Amsterdam, NL would be the closest comparisons, but wrap those up in a sleepy New England village and you have Salem.

There was/is a shop downtown that sells cigars, porn, and Dungeons and Dragons stuff (you can't make this stuff up)*. My brother and I would go in there from time to time when we were downtown [and when the staff bothered to keep us from peering into the forbidden sections] and would head the dusty back section. They had all sorts of comics, 70's Star Trek/Star Wars, Babylon 5, D&D, and other "crap." As 11-13yr olds raised on LOTR and Star Trek, we were in heaven. That's where we stumbled onto this "warhammer-not-warcraft" stuff. Needless to say, overblown super soldiers with guns shooting aliens was more engrossing than anything we could imagine. We would head back there and devour the books as we could. For whatever reason the 40k stuff grabbed our attention while the WFB stuff seemed like a boring LOTR clone.

I eventually saved up money to buy the Blood Angels Codex (2nd/3rd edition?) and then the Angels of Death Dark Angels/Blood Angels one. We had never played a tabletop game before so didn't bother to understand the stats and just got them for the fluff. My brother got the Dark Eldar codex just to be different. I don't know how our parents never turned a few pages to figure out what had our 12-yr old jaws dropped.

Anyways, 40k was always on the peripheral or background until Dawn of War vg series. Passing interest in the universe would come and go. Then fast forward another ten years and here I am, hopeless.

*Not my review, but an incredible bit of reading:
"While I am not a smoker or a cigar connoisseur, I've become infatuated with the musty atmosphere of this store, and will sometimes be found, poking through the endless boxes of comic books, towards the back. I've found that I enjoy sifting through the back issues at this store over Harrison's Comics (only a walk around the corner) more extensive (and pocket-sinking collection.) The concept of a store that appeals primarily to cigar enthusiasts and sexual deviants, while also catering to the nerd herd is a bizarre one indeed, but it also bridges many gaps in becoming simply another niche cigar joint that exudes sleaziness. This place may polarize passers by, and it certainly isn't a place where one might invite their right-wing, evangelical father to pal around with. Nonetheless, beneath the grime and leisure-suited, used car salesman mood of the store, this a great outlet to silently geek out with Star Trek memorabilia and dig through the heaps of pulpy Marvel or DC comics that seem to have accumulated an unnecessary amount of dust--if you are patient, you may strike a real catch over the expensive rates on comics at other stores.

I have given the Red Lion Smoke Shop four stars, only due to the fact that the staff aren't the most friendly bunch, and they have, visibly maltreated a few customers who've never asked for the hassle. Either way, if you feel ripe for a pit stop at a truly unique hobby shop that's weathered through Salem's consumer culture revolution, and if you're comfortable with the sometimes shifty attitude that radiates from the store, then mark this down as a must-visit avenue for cigar-smoking and geek goodies alike."

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:10

ijyt: Apr 10, 2012

Ok lets lets get back on topic:

With everything that has been happening recently, I have been thinking a lot about our great hobby, and how much we invest versus what we should reasonably expect in return for our hard earned cash.

The rumour mill has been flying for nearly a year now about a possible 8th edition, and that has just stepped up with the most recent releases being primarchs for both loyalists and traitors. There is concern that GW aren't telling the truth where resetting/majour changes concerning both fluff and rules are concerned as we begin to see a similar pattern between 40K and AoS emerging. There is debate on the nature of the rumours which is fracturing the community into 3 groups, the "yes", "no", "and I don't care" sections for AoS style rules changes.

Many people are wondering whether it's worth continuing to purchase, including the new releases, as they have no idea whether things will be playable in the near future or not.

What I would expect from Games Workshop would be an annual calendar, which needs only to be basic, stating the rules releases for the year.

Example:

Jan-March: 3 Book campaign adding details of X warzone including 1, 2, 3, races.
Apr-Jun: FAQ/Errata for X system, Codex release for faction 9,23,57.
July-Sept: 3 Book campaign leading to release of games system B #edition

So on and so forth.

No real details other than who is involved, and whether there is an edition change. This could be released at Christmas the preceding year to generate interest, and actually give people a way to plan their spending, and look at gifts that are due.

Sure, Chaos are really feeling conflicted, between having the oldest main codex available, to some updated books including Magnus and Traitor Legions, and Marines have been feeling the love with Guilliman and Angels of Death. Guard are also feeling the pain, with an old codex, along the same lines as some of the xenos too.

We aren't asking for majour secrets, or to stop GW bringing out shiny new toys which are a surprise. All we are asking for is a little more information to allow us to better plan our hobby.

Am I wrong here? *This isn't a hate post*

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:19

Mango Polo: Aug 4, 2007

ijyt posted:

Ok lets lets get back on topic:

With everything that has been happening recently, I have been thinking a lot about our great hobby, and how much we invest versus what we should reasonably expect in return for our hard earned cash.

The rumour mill has been flying for nearly a year now about a possible 8th edition, and that has just stepped up with the most recent releases being primarchs for both loyalists and traitors. There is concern that GW aren't telling the truth where resetting/majour changes concerning both fluff and rules are concerned as we begin to see a similar pattern between 40K and AoS emerging. There is debate on the nature of the rumours which is fracturing the community into 3 groups, the "yes", "no", "and I don't care" sections for AoS style rules changes.

Many people are wondering whether it's worth continuing to purchase, including the new releases, as they have no idea whether things will be playable in the near future or not.

What I would expect from Games Workshop would be an annual calendar, which needs only to be basic, stating the rules releases for the year.

Example:

Jan-March: 3 Book campaign adding details of X warzone including 1, 2, 3, races.
Apr-Jun: FAQ/Errata for X system, Codex release for faction 9,23,57.
July-Sept: 3 Book campaign leading to release of games system B #edition

So on and so forth.

No real details other than who is involved, and whether there is an edition change. This could be released at Christmas the preceding year to generate interest, and actually give people a way to plan their spending, and look at gifts that are due.

Sure, Chaos are really feeling conflicted, between having the oldest main codex available, to some updated books including Magnus and Traitor Legions, and Marines have been feeling the love with Guilliman and Angels of Death. Guard are also feeling the pain, with an old codex, along the same lines as some of the xenos too.

We aren't asking for majour secrets, or to stop GW bringing out shiny new toys which are a surprise. All we are asking for is a little more information to allow us to better plan our hobby.

Am I wrong here? *This isn't a hate post*

I will make this clear, first and foremost, this is not a discussion of your thoughts and feelings on this Coming of the storm, hating the new fluff or any of that crap. I don't care for a great deal of this myself, but I have no interest in wasting my time lamenting over a Golden Age past or however we may perceive to be the present state of the 40k lore. You want to do that, go to one of the dozen other discussion and news threads.

This is a hypothetical discussion of what may come to pass and what may we feel the repercussions will be for such actions. It is as much a discussion of the rammifications of transgressions and how we may feel things could turn in this regard. It can be viewed as potential canon or viewed as an alternating path like the many 'alternate heresy' scenes that a few people have played with.

So let's discuss, what I like to call, the Secession of Orphans.

First, let's talk about what we know. We know that Guilliman has returned, the Primarch who remade the Imperium after the Scouring into the system that has persisted for 10,000 years while corroding and degrading into the monstrous mortis-cult empire that we all know. We know that he will be officially recognized as the Lord Commander of the Imperium and is assuming some sort of role in or above the High Lords of Terra. We know that Guilliman was entombed in the stasis field before the Imperium turned to the worship of the Emperor of a God and thus, scorns the concepts of such faith.

Next, let's discuss the hypothetical, discuss the things that I believe we have a good hunch of, though there is no absolute confirmation. We can assume that, as Lord Commander of the Imperium once more, he will likely command of the Imperium's military and, perhaps in turn attempt to assume claim authority over Space Marine chapters. Perhaps that won't be the case, but I find it unlikely that he won't. The second hypothetical is the potential coming of this new Legion or Space Marine 2.0 that may be coming with 8th Edition 40k. The third hypothetical could be the potential purging of Imperial Faith. I don't necessarily think this will happen, as I think Guilliman is smart enough to know that trying to get rid of this would have some major problem but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

The Codex Astartes is a system of organization that most chapters follow to some form of concept. It is not only a guideline of military application but also a treatise identifying the autonomy of the Space Marine chapters that has been recognized for 10,000 years and has been engrained in their traditions and very identity as Adeptus Astartes.

Now, the Secession of Orphans.

Imagine this with me.

Consider yourself a Chapter Master of the Space Marines who has held control over a sector distant from Terra and Ultramar. You are Lord Warden Osric Domalde, master to the Space Marine chapter, Knights of the Black Sun. You and your brothers have protected this distant part of the Halo region of the Imperium and the people who dwell in this sector since the 33rd Millenium. You are not sons of Guilliman, but you do not know your true origins. You follow the Codex Astartes and the traditions of your Chapter with staunch loyalty to your Chapter and the Emperor above all. More than anything, you value the power of your Chapter's autonomy, to protect and serve the Imperium as your Chapter sees fit and you continue this tradition of loyalty and freedom in equal measure since as long as your Chapter's libtrarium has transcribed... This is the way, I feel, that many Chapters will understand their nature. Quite a hefty number of Chapters have little to no understanding of their origins. They have no father or their father died long ago. You are an Orphan.

Now imagine your surprise when you come to find, out of some sheer miracle, that the Lord Commander Guilliman has returned. And with it, he has demanded you bend the knee to him. Having assumed command of the Imperium's military he has thus called your chapter, as with every other chapter to answer his call and fight under his banner, to defend your land in his name and that of the Imperium. The man who had written the treaty of your autonomy, who fell in battle and immortalized and a saint of the Imperial Creed has suddenly returned and demanded you forgo all freedom and tradition to fight for him.

What's more, there's rumor of this 'new Astartes' who fight for Lord Guilliman, some new construction of genetic manipulation from Mars, bastardizing the perfection of the process to create Adeptus Astartes that has been laid in stone since the authority of the Emperor himself. To not only demand you abandon your autonomy but also to shame the very name of the Adeptus Astartes and everything they stand for. To spit on the authority of the Emperor himself and his sacred decrees.

What would you do?

Secession?

The Secession of Orphans is the concept of Guilliman assuming authority backfiring in his face, this coming age of 'progress and reason' utter anathema to everything the Imperium stands for and has known since the Horus Heresy. Space Marine chapters would break when their autonomy is called into question. Forge Worlds would excommunicate when the bawk in horror at the rampant and hedonistic butchery of the Machine God's most unquestioning commandments. Shrine Wolrds declaring the apostasy of this 'False Saint' who has dared to assume command in the Emperor's place and rebuke their faith. The Imperium remembers the horrors of the Age of Apostasy and the Mad Lord Vandire. I can't imagine any would see wish to see that again... And I can believe many would not be willing to take the risk.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:22

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

ijyt posted:

What I would expect from Games Workshop would be an annual calendar, which needs only to be basic, stating the rules releases for the year.

This is a pretty basic expectation, yeah. It's not as universal as it should be (looking at you Battlefront) but I'd say a majority of companies have some attempt at a schedule and the fact GW doesn't when GW has a historical trust problem from pulling rugs out is pretty baffling.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:22

ijyt: Apr 10, 2012

spectralent posted:

This is a pretty basic expectation, yeah. It's not as universal as it should be (looking at you Battlefront) but I'd say a majority of companies have some attempt at a schedule and the fact GW doesn't when GW has a historical trust problem from pulling rugs out is pretty baffling.

Looking forward to the answers to these questions myself!

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:26

Avenging Dentist: Oct 1, 2005; oh my god is that a circular saw that does not go in my mouth aaaaagh

ijyt posted:

Its people seeking to change it. Its forums. Its the modern online posters, and its the generational gap.

I mean, I don't really care about changing 40k; it is what it is, and from my perspective, I think it's in the process of collapsing under its own weight. If people like it, I don't really care (although I do think it's very seriously flawed).

The main reason I like this thread is because it opened my eyes to other games (and miniatures companies) out there that are more up my alley. :shobon:

Now if someone would just make some 28mm-scale Overwatch figures I would be all over that poo poo.

Avenging Dentist fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Mar 30, 2017

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:32

Crackbone: May 23, 2003; Vlaada is my co-pilot.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:34

kingcom: Jun 23, 2012

Came back to this thread to see a whole lot of shitposting, what happened? Did GW finally put Ham 40k in a reality ball?

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:36

Crackbone: May 23, 2003; Vlaada is my co-pilot.

Here's my new armylist:

5 BloodSlayers
5 BloodKillers
5 BloodSlaughterers
5 BloodSoakers
5 BloodBasters

Total Points: NONE LOL ITS A GAME OF GENTLEMAN AGREEMENTS

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:35

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Avenging Dentist posted:

I mean, I don't really care about changing 40k; it is what it is, and from my perspective, I think it's in the process of collapsing under its own weight. If people like it, I don't really care (although I do think it's very seriously flawed).

The main reason I like this thread is because it opened my eyes to other games (and miniatures companies) out there that are more up my alley.

Now if someone made some 28mm-scale Overwatch figures I would be all over that poo poo.

I feel like that's probably basically malifaux.

At least, in the sense of "A team of guys with individual superpowers you're trying to make work together to beat your opponents to objectives".

spectralent fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Mar 30, 2017

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:35

Avenging Dentist: Oct 1, 2005; oh my god is that a circular saw that does not go in my mouth aaaaagh

spectralent posted:

I feel like that's probably basically malifaux.

At least, in the sense of "A team of guys with individual superpowers you're trying to make work together to beat your opponents to objectives".

Nah, I just wanted to paint a Winston and Roadhog model.

I have a few Malifaux figures and they look nice, although that range is hit-or-miss for me.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:45

ijyt: Apr 10, 2012

Avenging Dentist posted:

I mean, I don't really care about changing 40k; it is what it is, and from my perspective, I think it's in the process of collapsing under its own weight. If people like it, I don't really care (although I do think it's very seriously flawed).

The main reason I like this thread is because it opened my eyes to other games (and miniatures companies) out there that are more up my alley.

Now if someone would just make some 28mm-scale Overwatch figures I would be all over that poo poo.

Oh yeah like I said earlier to spectralent 40k isnt exclusive there are tons of cool games to play (apart for warmachine). Guild ball is very cool!

Is Overwatch like infinity?

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:46

Safety Factor: Oct 31, 2009; Grimey Drawer

kingcom posted:

Came back to this thread to see a whole lot of shitposting, what happened? Did GW finally put Ham 40k in a reality ball?

Seriously, this thread. :cripes:

We have an extremely small amount of information released, hardly anything to even start speculating about. The released things are rule concepts, nothing is put in stone yet by GW. If that makes you put your hobby on pause, then do that...though personally I don't really see the point of coming here to brag about something like that.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:49

Avenging Dentist: Oct 1, 2005; oh my god is that a circular saw that does not go in my mouth aaaaagh

ijyt posted:

Is Overwatch like infinity?

In all honesty, Overwatch's design has made me warm a bit to Infinity's design, but one of the things I really like about Overwatch is the huge amount of stylistic variety in the heroes.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:50

Its Rinaldo: Aug 13, 2010; CODS BINCH

Avenging Dentist posted:

In all honesty, Overwatch's design has made me warm a bit to Infinity's design, but one of the things I really like about Overwatch is the huge amount of stylistic variety in the heroes.

To me Overwatch is cyberpunk poured through The Incredibles lens while Infinity is more or less straight cyberpunk

# ? Mar 30, 2017 01:54

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

ijyt posted:

Oh yeah like I said earlier to spectralent 40k isnt exclusive there are tons of cool games to play (apart for warmachine). Guild ball is very cool!

Is Overwatch like infinity?

There are good opinions in the thread again I'm scared.

Avenging Dentist posted:

In all honesty, Overwatch's design has made me warm a bit to Infinity's design, but one of the things I really like about Overwatch is the huge amount of stylistic variety in the heroes.

Yeah; it's a really colourful, stylish game. It'd be nice to see that on a table.

I kind of wonder what an Overwatch tabletop game would be like, now. It'd be interesting to have a game that's 100% based on "hero" models that each have a power and gimmick. Even stuff like the Warmahorde and Malifaux things

Bad Moon posted:

To me Overwatch is cyberpunk poured through The Incredibles lens while Infinity is more or less straight cyberpunk

I dunno if I'd call Overwatch cyberpunk, personally; it's not very -punk, it's downright optimistic in a lot of places, and I can't think of much that's all that cyber, either. Sombra is, but it doesn't generally deal with either the cybernetic or cyberspace aspects I'd associate with the prefix. It feels like near-future sci fi.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 02:04

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

Looking for some advice and thoughts.

Going to have a studio do six drop pods for me, and I approached three different ones for pricing.

Frontline Gaming
Paintedfigs.com
Epicdiestudio

Frontline has failed to respond to two separate inqueries. Epic responded immediately with an estimate of about $950, including purchase, assembly, magnetization, etc.

PaintedFigs which sells itself as a quality at a lower price came back with a much lower estimate in the range of $550.

Hard to argue with a $400 price diff especially when you are saving for a future house, but at the same time going through the galleries of the two different studios I'm not really confident in PaintedFigs quality. I have seen nice armies painted by them in person but I worried I'll get something less than satisfying if I cut costs.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 02:13

Kung Fu Fist Fuck: Aug 9, 2009

this thread got real fuckin meta all of a sudden

# ? Mar 30, 2017 02:23

Hamshot: Feb 1, 2006; Fun Shoe

Death throes of a dying thread. Dane cook blowjoberer posting direct copies of other SA posts into this thread instead of mocking them openly in the thread they came from because it isn't the cuddly hate box echo chamber he feels comfortable in. Crack bone posting sup-par artificial memes in the hopes one will take off but instead gets ignored, resulting in him trying even harder like a toddler in a tantrum responding to being ignored by increasing volume.

RIP Death thread. The forums were at the same time too abrasive and too sensitive for you.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 03:12

Chill la Chill: Jul 2, 2007; Don't lose your gay

This thread's been dying ever since boom^3 was banned. He was part of the heart and soul of these threads, along with moola and LP.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 03:15

Crackbone: May 23, 2003; Vlaada is my co-pilot.

Death thread death thread?

# ? Mar 30, 2017 03:16

panascope: Mar 26, 2005

Chill la Chill posted:

This thread's been dying ever since boom^3 was banned. He was part of the heart and soul of these threads, along with moola and LP.

What about me? I've been here since page one.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 03:17

NTRabbit: Aug 15, 2012; i wear this armour to protect myself from the histrionics of hysterical women

bitches

I think the real question is, why are the cult members from the bad thread trying so hard to get the death thread gassed now, of all times?

# ? Mar 30, 2017 03:17

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 16, 2024 16:22

Chill la Chill: Jul 2, 2007; Don't lose your gay

panascope posted:

What about me? I've been here since page one.

Spontaneously post some gundams to keep morale up from time to time then. It wasn't an honor, it was a duty.

# ? Mar 30, 2017 03:18

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Death Thread 2017 - GW is Cool, and Good

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