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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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33 | 6.38% |
| No |
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343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
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54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
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71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
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16 | 3.09% |
| Total: | 416 votes | ||
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Crowsbeak posted:Michigan doesn't have a population that large. numbers hard oog quote:A total of 7,481,074 Michigan residents were registered to vote as of Thursday, Oct. 13 -- the highest number ever for a presidential election, according to numbers from the Michigan Secretary of State office.
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Mar 30, 2017 04:03
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Brainiac Five posted:Why did you bring up his conclusions to smear the interpretation based on the raw data, you weasel? Like I said, it's not just his conclusions - the data itself turned out to be inaccurate. It greatly overestimated how many voters stayed home, which is why the writer's conclusions were so wrong.
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Mar 30, 2017 04:25
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Majorian posted:Like I said, it's not just his conclusions - the data itself turned out to be inaccurate. It greatly overestimated how many voters stayed home, which is why the writer's conclusions were so wrong. You are avoiding the question, so it seems pretty clear that you hosed up, but won't admit to it, and this will have to shape how people read your posts in the future.
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Mar 30, 2017 04:28
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I was referring to effectronica say 910,000 as 2% of Michigans population i see that was fixed.
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Mar 30, 2017 04:33
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Crowsbeak posted:I was referring to effectronica say 910,000 as 2% of Michigans population i see that was fixed. Are you going to give me the locations of your fellow Nazi cloning experiments or not, bucko?
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Mar 30, 2017 04:33
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Majorian posted:Like I said, it's not just his conclusions - the data itself turned out to be inaccurate. It greatly overestimated how many voters stayed home, which is why the writer's conclusions were so wrong. quote:There is still much more evidence to come, and the major post-election surveys have not yet been released. The data sources I’m working with have small samples. There is enough evidence, however, to reject the idea that racism was not central to Trump’s appeal simply because some of his voters had previously voted for Obama. So that's the second dataset that you've rejected. Dare we go for a third?
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Mar 30, 2017 04:35
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Brainiac Five posted:Are you going to give me the locations of your fellow Nazi cloning experiments or not, bucko? I value them not having to deal with a screeching drama queen, so no.
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Mar 30, 2017 04:38
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JeffersonClay posted:It seems very unlikely that they're ever coming back. This is just the last shoe to drop in the realignment that LBJ started. Priorities USA released a study last month that suggests otherwise. Their summary: quote:There is a real opportunity for Democrats to win back many voters who switched from Obama to Trump, as half (50%) say they had mixed feelings about voting for Trump. Just 35% of these “soft” Obama-Trump voters have confidence that Donald Trump will do a good job as President and reaching these voters will be a key focus of Priorities USA’s efforts moving forward. quote:Obama-Trump voters feel especially squeezed economically and expect an economic and tax agenda from Trump that will benefit the middle class – not wealthy and corporate elites. More than half (58%) of soft Trump supporters feel their income is falling behind the cost of living. As such, Obama-Trump voters support reducing taxes on the middle class, but also support ensuring corporations pay their fair share of taxes. quote:Soft Obama-Trump backers were drawn to Trump because of his business persona and the perception he is not a typical politician. Undercutting that appeal will be key to winning them back. These voters are particularly concerned that Trump will break his promise of “giving power back to the people” and that he will put the interests of wealthy elites and big businesses first. JeffersonClay posted:So that's the second dataset that you've rejected. Dare we go for a third? If you've got one that doesn't contain serious methodological issues that taint its conclusions, I'm all ears. 
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Mar 30, 2017 04:42
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So, Obama-Trump voters are middle class, not working class. Would ya look at that.
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Mar 30, 2017 04:58
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Majorian posted:Priorities USA released a study last month that suggests otherwise. Their summary: quote:If you've got one that doesn't contain serious methodological issues that taint its conclusions, I'm all ears. You just posted an online survey with 800 responses from a progressive PAC without the questions or the crosstabs or anything other than the summary. C'mon dude.
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Mar 30, 2017 05:00
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In other news of ho the Democratic Party has to clean house. http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/326442-debbie-wasserman-schultz-dems-are-already-a-grassroots-party Yeah, being able to beg a pay day loan ceo for superpac money is not grassroots.
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Mar 30, 2017 05:33
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JeffersonClay posted:Can we see the actual questions and results somewhere? I can't find them with a bit of poking around. Global Strategy Group and Garin-Hart-Yang don't seem to have released their crosstabs, but they're both reputable firms, 800 respondents is a pretty average sample size for a survey of this manner, and quite frankly, I trust Priorities USA's data analysis much more than a Salon hack's. The website that still hosts Amanda "BERNIE BROS BACKSTABBED US!" Marcotte doesn't hold much credibility. Priorities USA supported Clinton pretty fervently in 2016, so you should like them too. Here's the bottom line: your argument rests on the assumption that the Democrats will not be able to recapture white blue collar workers in the Rust Belt who traditionally voted for them. There is no evidence that supports this. The evidence I have provided suggests the opposite: that by recommitting itself to its principles of economic justice (not to the exclusion of other central principles, like antiracism), these voters can, in fact, be brought back into the coalition. e: Crowsbeak posted:In other news of ho the Democratic Party has to clean house. http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/326442-debbie-wasserman-schultz-dems-are-already-a-grassroots-party This is why your candidate lost to Donald Trump, JC. This is how badly the centrist wing of the Democratic Party missed, and continues to miss, the point. Majorian fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 05:58
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Majorian posted:This is why your candidate lost to Donald Trump, JC. This is how badly the centrist wing of the Democratic Party missed, and continues to miss, the point. We can argue over how racist Obama -> Trump voters might or might not be, and we can disagree over whether it is possible to get those voters back, but regardless of what the answers to those questions may be, it seems to me that between Trump and Brexit a lot of people in the West have decided they are sick of this poo poo and as a result we have reached end stage capitalism, in its current implementation anyway (i.e. corporate capitalism). Democrats can either figure out what they want to offer instead, or they can stick to the status quo and the same old poo poo and the electorate will choose whatever Trump's GOP offers in 2020, which is to say basically whatever Steve Bannon says. Tweaks to the platform and "smart improvements" or whatever the gently caress, aren't going to cut it, and if you think they will then you're going to lose. And make no mistake, 2020 Trump will be a different animal than 2016 Trump. 2020 Trump is going to go Full Hitler and if the best the Democrats can muster is "America is already great" then Full Hitler is going to work. If you want to know where the righteous fury and anger from the left is coming from (that is to say in addition to the odious personality of this or that centrist fuckwad), then it's coming from this: we're looking down the barrel of a gun, and the centrists are busy trying to figure out how much of a dodge is too much of a dodge - too much effort for the return (not getting your brains blown out). I mean the only reason we might get another crack at this is the incredible incompetency and stupidity both of Trump himself and the people he surrounds himself with, and a GOP establishment caught flat-footed by a win they totally did not expect. Were it not for that, fascism very likely could have already sealed the deal last year. That may still turn out to be the case. Try to at least act like you understand you're living on borrowed time, for gently caress's sake.
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Mar 30, 2017 07:50
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This thread in a nutshell.
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Mar 30, 2017 09:31
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I too, agree with the idiotic mewlings of a Stein voter who unironically retweets Russian propaganda.
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Mar 30, 2017 10:24
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stone cold posted:By appealing to Trump voters who were one time Obama voters, over the people who didn't vote, you somehow don't see how that would be a slap in the face to the people Trump has sought to oppress and these people enthusiastically nodded along to? Again, why don't we appeal to the people who didn't vote? For a more interesting look at Michigan, check the results ftom Arab and Muslim voters compared to 2008 and 2012.
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Mar 30, 2017 10:34
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Brainiac Five posted:I really don't know how someone can say "these policies will benefit all people in the Rust Belt" and simultaneously insist they're not using "a rising tide lifts all boats" rhetoric. Trump told rust belt voters that the wealthy global liberal elite hosed them over. What did Clinton have to say?
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Mar 30, 2017 11:22
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Brainiac Five posted:I really don't know how someone can say "these policies will benefit all people in the Rust Belt" and simultaneously insist they're not using "a rising tide lifts all boats" rhetoric. There's nothing inherently wrong with a "rising tide lifts all boats" arguments. It's not a logical fallacy or anything.
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Mar 30, 2017 11:27
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Crowsbeak posted:You're reloading what? Also want people to vote dem? Dont be a drama queen its rath unbecoming. "you're a Nazi! You're a nazi!" I continue to insist as I shrink and transform into a corncob
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Mar 30, 2017 11:32
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The idea that policies aimed towards helping the working class and/or the poor are somehow inherently in opposition to policies aimed towards helping minorities is pretty weird unless you assume that there is no significant amount of poor and/or working-class minority people. Needless to say this assumption is pretty suspect on multiple levels.
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Mar 30, 2017 12:11
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Brainiac Five posted:So, Obama-Trump voters are middle class, not working class. Would ya look at that. Yeah, and GDP is growing great! Lets be real there is no such thing as the "middle class" at this point. There's the professional upper class who can afford to live in cities and there's people working sub subsistence wages to get by.
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Mar 30, 2017 13:35
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Fiction posted:Yeah, and GDP is growing great! The professional upper class that lives in Detroit and Flint. The bourgeoisie, defined as "people Fiction makes less money than",- Dead Cosmonaut posted:Trump told rust belt voters that the wealthy global liberal elite hosed them over. So why do we want anti-semites to vote for us again?
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Mar 30, 2017 14:16
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It is pretty loving cool to realize that "eat the rich", for poo poo-for-brains college students like Fiction, now means violence against social workers, unless they happen to live in the authentically Volkisch countryside.
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Mar 30, 2017 14:17
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Brainiac Five posted:It is pretty loving cool to realize that "eat the rich", for poo poo-for-brains college students like Fiction, now means violence against social workers, unless they happen to live in the authentically Volkisch countryside. There are plenty of poor people in cities too. It's just becoming increasingly hard for them to live there because the politicians supposedly representing them think everything is hunky dory now that their lobbyist handlers' businesses have recovered.
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Mar 30, 2017 15:18
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Pretending the Democrats are anything other than a party for rich people who just don't want to openly hate minorities so they can keep good business is sad.
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Mar 30, 2017 15:19
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Fiction posted:Pretending the Democrats are anything other than a party for rich people who just don't want to openly hate minorities so they can keep good business is sad. Whoa buddy. Be careful. You're dealing with radical centrists in this thread, and they don't take kindly to criticism of das partei.
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Mar 30, 2017 15:25
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Fiction posted:There are plenty of poor people in cities too. It's just becoming increasingly hard for them to live there because the politicians supposedly representing them think everything is hunky dory now that their lobbyist handlers' businesses have recovered. So you're gonna make your stand on "Detroit and Flint are filled with the bourgeoisie, by which I mean social workers and engineers" while graciously acknowledging that there might be proletarians in cities, hypothetically. Have you ever been outside of New York/San Francisco? This is a serious question, if you're just ignorant then there's no call to get mad at you but if you're willfully ignorant, that's another story. Anyways, don't think the Great Recession is actually what caused rents in some cities to skyrocket you stupid rear end in a top hat.
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Mar 30, 2017 15:26
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I'm curious about what leftist theory defines class struggle as between the uneducated and the educated, but I'm sure that you got it from some asinine Intercept/Jacobin article and are unable to even articulate what the "professional class" is without wikipedia handy.
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Mar 30, 2017 15:30
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Brainiac Five posted:I'm curious about what leftist theory defines class struggle as between the uneducated and the educated, but I'm sure that you got it from some asinine Intercept/Jacobin article and are unable to even articulate what the "professional class" is without wikipedia handy. I'm come from the RUST BELT, motherfucker 
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Mar 30, 2017 15:55
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:I'm come from the RUST BELT, motherfucker I really appreciate how you guys boast about how you're dysenteric assholes and proud. Really ties your posts together.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:01
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I love that centrist Dems think they can win without recapturing the white working class voters that they lost in November.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:02
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Majorian posted:I love that centrist Dems think they can win without recapturing the white working class voters that they lost in November. I love that you, as a member of the professional class defined as the true enemy of the working class by Fiction, are willing to sacrifice your life for the sake of catering to racist middle-class white people and defeating identity politics race hustlers like John Lewis and Tom Perez. I will shed one single tear when it goes down, in the last rathole the reactionary and Bernieist forces will have retreated to, misspelled signs decrying "centrists" scattered about in the feculence.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:07
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The sheer number of urbanites with college degrees willing to recognize that they are the REAL bourgeoisie, unlike centrist tankie notions of "relationship to the means of production" defining bourgeois and proletariat, and thus willing to die for the real proletariat, rural white people, it's extremely noble and beautiful and it would be a real shame if any of them backed out because of nauseating sentimentalism.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:13
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Brainiac Five posted:I love that you, as a member of the professional class defined as the true enemy of the working class by Fiction, are willing to sacrifice your life for the sake of catering to racist middle-class white people Got any evidence to back up the claim that Obama-to-Trump voters in the Rust Belt are middle class, or are you just flailing, as usual?
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Mar 30, 2017 16:18
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Surely if I use lots of smart sounding words I will sound smart
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Mar 30, 2017 16:17
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Majorian posted:Got any evidence to back up the claim that Obama-to-Trump voters in the Rust Belt are middle class, or are you just flailing, as usual? You approvingly quoted an article saying they were, but I'm more intrigued by the self-loathing on display here. Surely it can't be the case that you have selfishly adopted Comrade "Fiction's" sparkling, incisive, genius class analysis where all hegemony derives from college education for the purposes of pandering to some form of depression? Or are you merely fetishizing based on incomes and thus denigrating the idea of the middle class?
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Mar 30, 2017 16:21
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Centrist Dems need to believe the middle class is still a factor in the economy even though the trade deals they helped cut and pass long since took away the jobs which created a middle class in the first place.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:23
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Fiction posted:Centrist Dems need to believe the middle class is still a factor in the economy even though the trade deals they helped cut and pass long since took away the jobs which created a middle class in the first place. So how many bourgeois social workers have you executed in the name of the Revolution, comrade? I have personally butchered over a dozen engineering student animals and five mathematicians.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:25
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Hillary won among voters whose primary concern was the economy (Obama lost to Romney on this). Trump dominated on immigration, and national security. People in this thread need to recognize that working/middle-class white voters are not single issue voters. You are not going to win them back by abandoning neoliberal economics. It's also funny to see the hatred for centrist Democrats, when they are all that is standing between you and one party rule. If the GOP were able to drop the overt bigotry, but keep every other part of their platform, we would probably be looking at decades of single party rule. The country is far more right wing than people like to believe.
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Mar 30, 2017 16:27
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TyrantWD posted:It's also funny to see the hatred for centrist Democrats, when they are all that is standing between you and one party rule. If the GOP were able to drop the overt bigotry, but keep every other part of their platform, we would probably be looking at decades of single party rule. The country is far more right wing than people like to believe. You mean the same people who hosed up so bad that the US is practically a one-party state?
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Mar 30, 2017 16:35
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