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nopantsjack posted:People who enjoyed having their old game thrown in the trash while GW allowed them to play the new bad game with their armies rules replaced by bad jokes are probably gonna love 8th to be fair. OK, I just watched a really good video essay, and it kind of inspired me to plant this here. Now, I’ll start off by saying I don’t nearly get ingrained into the Lore as much as some gamers. I don’t buy every book, and I read one every few months or so. But I do understand generally what is going on and what has happened, recognize key characters, and know the story-arcing themes of races. But lore does matter to me, and this is my opinion on how GW has made mistakes and can do better. PART 1: Comparisons with the Warhammer Old World - End Times - Age of Sigmar progression The End Times (and Age of Sigmar that came after) essentially invalidated all the general Lore for Warhammer Fantasy. The effect is the same as retconning WFB out of existence, as whatever happened in WFB had little effect on what happens in AoS. So, why would GW do this, when it is mostly poor storytelling? Well, their goal wasn’t really story driven at all, but instead driven by the need (or want) to create something entirely new and invalidate the old. The small references to WFB are mostly done to appease the customer base and maintain some justification for models. GW wanted to create better trademarks for IPs, and create new models that didn’t really fit WFB’s lore, while also changing gameplay entirely. In their eyes, these goals could not have been met without the End Times. Part 2: 40k and the Future Now we are seeing the progression of the storyline for Warhammer 40k. Thankfully, GW isn’t likely to AoS 40k, as 40k is the cash cow and doesn’t really need complete upheaval like WFB did. But GW obviously wants to sell more models and books, and story progression is the easiest way to do that. “Curse of the Wulfen,” “Wrath of Magnus,” and “Fall of Cadia” all meet GW’s goals of more books and more models, and don’t really change the dynamics of the galaxy to massive degrees. Yes, the Space Wolves took a beating, and Cadia is now gone. But these groundbreaking events need to happen for the story progression to feel important. Nonetheless, none of the factions is destroyed or culled, and it just flows into the next story arc. Old foes and allies have returned, new characters are brought to the fore, and the future is uncertain but in motion. Now I think that this is all promising. Obviously for anything to work there needs to be good writing, and it can be very hard to trust GW with progressing a storyline with their history in WFB. But at the end of the day, GW knows the best way to sell models and books is to accompany them with story progression. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as long as GW has learned lessons in their past mistakes and willing to improve. D&D 3.5 aside (which primarily survives due to a very odd quirk of copyright in the OGL), these games have wispy, zombie-like support at best. They live and breathe, but only barely, and they only really do so because they're fun systems. There's no useful example of a game background era that "sticks around," because there's nothing tangible to be had for it. It's fiction. It lives in our heads. Though, really, I don't think this is the reason people are displeased. The oft-repeated point of "but nothing's stopping you from ignoring it" is itself doing some pretty big ignoring of what people get and like out of a setting like 40K's. At the end of the day, it's a hobby that naturally requires external inspiration, and most of that comes from the people who make the hobby products. The spigot gets turned off, and there's nothing new to interact with. It's a game world, not a religion. Engagement isn't a monastic activity. People want to go where the product goes, but the product's going in a place a lot of people don't want it to. It may not be The End Times in the sense that 40K won't face the ignoble steamrollering that poor ol' WHFB got. The Emperor will still be on his Throne, kicking out the oldies for Navigators to jam to, and his Imperium will stand against the Gods of Chaos (well, minus one before too long, I'd wager), but all indications are that it's going to be a radically different place in terms of tone, focus and engagement than the setting that preceded it. Quite a few of us aren't pleased by that, and I don't think that's without cause. Whatever one wants to say about the merits of an advancing timeline, the fact is that the GW of today just doesn't cut it in terms of pure writing quality to execute on that advancement with anything like the competency it requires. Just look at these pages from the Fall of Cadia if you need an example. If you think that's the kind of material that should be used to birth the new era of 40K, well, I don't know what to tell you. You must not think much of 40K. I can't even bring myself to call that junk "cartoonish." Cartoons are, after all, are capable of subtlety, complexity and wit. With all that stacked up, it just doesn't seem worth it to try and carry forth the lonely banner of Oldhammer 40K. There's other games and setting with better background (and, God, do we even want to start up on the sadness and desolation of 40K's rules set right now?) that are actively being maintained at a satisfactory level of quality. Why settle for the garish parody that 40K is looking to become? Life's too short. Based on previous behaviour exhibited by Games Workshop, am I worried about the future of a games system I've been playing with for most of my life? YES. Based on a discussion I've had, the majority of people who want AoS style formatting and rules brought to the 40K setting are those who don't care about the lore, the setting, and have zero patience with actually creating something from their games. In my group, we have a saying "If the rules don't support a fluff event, we'll make arrangements." Want a Marine Librarian who is a master at summoning daemons to do his bidding? Sure! We use that one often when my Grey Knights come out, as my opponent likes a story as much as I do. Want a traitor guard company, but can't afford the Forgeworld book? Sure! Use the Astra Militarum codex, and deploy amongst your Chaos Marines! We have toyed with many ideas, some of which aren't board appropriate in nature, however if you are after a conversation about them, PM me for sure. However, there is ALWAYS a fluff based reason behind stretching or breaking things like the Allies Matrix. Nothing touches the core of the game. We are seeing story progression, new books and models, with rumours saying Loyal Primarchs might be returning (Which if in plastic would be cool), much the same way as End Times occured. Does 40K NEED anyting approaching an AoS style reboot? No. Not at all. Sure, some of the special rules need looking at, and how they interact with each other. However, that's the most it needs. The current edition has everything we could want to represent the stories we are telling on our tables. From a patrolling Imperial knight encountering allies and enemies, to a named character leading an assault on their opposing counterpart. I've had discussions and arguements with people who don't care about the lore, or tellign a story, they just want a game they can play once or twice, and move on. My suggestion to them has always been teh same. Want simple rules that are fast to play? Play Chess or Snakes and Ladders. 40K is an immersive hobby, very creative, and can be extremely cinematic. Forcing people who enjoy all aspects of teh hobby to put up with chess-simple rules, just because new gamers don't have the patience to learn about their hobby is wrong. For every new hobbyist with the attention span to learn, there are 3 or more impulse buyers who play with AoS style rules for a little while, then forget about it and move on to the next thing. It honestly feels like we are racing to the bottom here. What we might eventually end up with is Snakes and Ladders, with models we paint outselves. Is that what we really want? Main points in summary: 1) 40K is both the lore and the game. 2) Simple rules don't always work. 3) Want games you can "just play", play chess and snakes and ladders. 4) You get out what you put in.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:36
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Avenging Dentist posted:oh my gosh i'm so sorry i didn't know things were this bad for you There are some duds but most are pretty awesome.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:36
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TKIY posted:I've personally not a problem with third party models, as people have said there's quite a few cases where a third party produces a nicer sculpt than GW (especially some of their older models). I do have more of an issue with models that are questionable in what unit they're being used for, more so for models that aren't in the same sort of scale - the old "Why is your GW Daemon Prince larger than your third party Bloodthirster?" type of thing! Agree that this is annoying, but it would be better solved by GW not using true line of sight. But here we are Also it depends on the context. I played in a 4 player game awhile back where this was the proxy being used for the Necron Deceiver C'Tan and it was hilarious 
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Mar 30, 2017 18:36
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Avenging Dentist posted:oh my gosh i'm so sorry i didn't know things were this bad for you I think you have some kind of mental illness. People are allowed to like things you don't like.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:37
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Never forget
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Mar 30, 2017 18:38
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spectralent posted:how do you play epic without subbing models Exactly the same way you play battlefleet gothic: you buy then on ebay or you already own them because you were smart enough to see a good purchase when it was available. Yes they cost more now but they are 100% worth the price because you are not only getting a piece of hobby history, you are getting some of the most iconic sculpts in the entire hobbyverse. Yes there are firestorm armada (do NOT support spartan games, they are genuinely a bad company!) and full throttle rule sets and I GUESS x-wing/armada but they are the wrong scale. However if you are dedicated to the hobby you need to understand there is a certain commitment to be made - you are playing a narrative not Sorry! There a plenty of self-contained boardgames that don't require effort to play or time to invest, so many those are better suited to the denizens of this thread as many of you have displayed a clear lack of interest in putting the time in to enjoy this hobby to its fullest.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:39
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I kinda think they might declare Sigmar is a lost ptimarch and make the reality balls touch...
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Mar 30, 2017 18:41
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Mango Polo posted:OK, I just watched a really good video essay, and it kind of inspired me to plant this here. I have several major issues with paying for rules: 1) Changing any rules invalidates printed books immediately. 2) It adds another cost to an already expensive hobby, and is a genuine barrier to new players. 3) It limits knowledge of the rules because most people will not have access to all the rules. 4) It prevents any meaningful list-building software from being released (by anyone), and list-building from fairly involved options is a pretty major aspect of many GW games. 5) Most of the above is addressed by regular edition changes which are really more disruptive than they are helpful. Considering the surge of interest in a new edition followed by the long drop-off towards the end of one, call it a lot of effort for a net gain of nothing. I also completely reject that art/fluff books won't sell well if they don't contain rules. An enormous amount of the books GW sells are exactly this (novels, Apocrypha, Index Astartes, etc.), and the uptake of them is pretty high. What free rules *will* do for GW is a number of things: 1) It gives them complete control over the rules. Anything can be updated whenever they want, and the rules become "living". It also means that things like second-hand rule books or piracy are simply removed from the equation. 2) It frees GW from a rigid release cycle. If a faction could do with an extra model, they can just add the rule for it to the online ruleset/army list and release the model. Currently a lot of designs never even make a release because of the way the model releases are centred around army book releases. 3) It keeps players invested in the game (and buying models) if they feel they are relevant and included. Playing with a heavily kludged army book two/three editions out of date or with a get-you-by list printed in a magazine is the opposite of this. 4) Players will still spend their money, but on models and supplies rather than than on books. Since GW make the models in-house, this nets them the greatest profit. 5) Hosting the rules online drives players to the GW website (and store) which is actually a great marketing tool. 6) It makes it "easy" for anyone to pick up some models and start to get invested in the game without needing to pony up a lot of money on something they may not like. And with free rules, players who don't like it won't feel burned (and may therefore try again in the future). 7) It's cheaper for GW too if they don't have to print, store, and ship all those books. It frees up logistical resources for model models too. As for how shallow AoS is/isn't, that's really got nothing to do with the rulebooks. The setting was brand new and there wasn't 30 years of background to draw from. The novels that were released in support of AoS's launch were frankly awful, and a perfect example of why many people do ignore a lot of the fluff. That precedent is what has people so afraid of what may come in 8E when the storyline moves on. If you play with or pander to people who only care about building cheesy lists and winning, then it really makes no difference if they read the fluff or not, or whether the game is fun/balanced or not - those people will still do their thing, and you will still do yours. They will likely never play narrative scenarios for example, nor perhaps read the fluff - so why pretend that they will, or that it will make a difference when it hasn't to date? In the end, I really fail to see why people who like one type of gaming attitude always feel the need to impose it on everyone else. If you want to ignore the points and play a fluffy scenario, there's nothing that has ever stopped you. On the other hand, for those that want to play the game as a tournament format event, having points and army lists permits this; but you don't have to play in tournaments if you don't want to. I actually think (in my experience) that the great majority of people fall somewhere in between - and thus having free rules that are accessible, open, and balanced benefits everyone regardless of how they want to play, and that players will delve into the fluff that interests them (just as they've always done).
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Mar 30, 2017 18:42
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Avenging Dentist posted:oh my gosh i'm so sorry i didn't know things were this bad for you I don't get the hate for the GW range. Look at that line and tell me what in it is so bad that it's worthy of your scorn? I'll never understand this urge to demonstrably dislike something to fit with the cool kids.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:42
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Bad Moon posted:Never forget except sigmar has what I love bitch 
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Mar 30, 2017 18:42
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TKIY posted:There are some duds but most are pretty awesome. i thought gw was good for a while but that was back when the only non-gw figures i had seen were the amateurish mush-faced sculpts from reaper and the like and then someone introduced me to dark age, infinity, studio mcvey, etc, the first of which has patrick masson as one of their sculptors, and i realized that miniatures can look so much better than gw it's not even funny Xir posted:I don't get the hate for the GW range. Look at that line and tell me what in it is so bad that it's worthy of your scorn? I'll never understand this urge to demonstrably dislike something to fit with the cool kids. even in the best of cases, the poses are pretty static and the proportions are god awful. in many cases it goes much farther than that, such as having extra crap that actively undermines the design (this is common with a lot of their hero models, where no one told the sculptor to stop, so he just kept adding poo poo long after the model should have been done). sometimes they go even farther and make square-assed dwarves in t-poses but i generally don't criticize a range by its absolute worst model even if it is really bad in this case Avenging Dentist fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 18:44
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ijyt posted:Exactly the same way you play battlefleet gothic: you buy then on ebay or you already own them because you were smart enough to see a good purchase when it was available. Yes they cost more now but they are 100% worth the price because you are not only getting a piece of hobby history, you are getting some of the most iconic sculpts in the entire hobbyverse. Yes there are firestorm armada (do NOT support spartan games, they are genuinely a bad company!) and full throttle rule sets and I GUESS x-wing/armada but they are the wrong scale. Well said m8
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Mar 30, 2017 18:45
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Gw models have high resolution especially compared to something super garbage like mantics elves but I stopped liking them as kits (the majority at least, some still are customisable which is what I crave) some time ago and think lately they look more and more poorly posed despite being more detailed than ever.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:48
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Safety Factor posted:I have several major issues with paying for rules: I don't have a problem with them charging $50 for the hardcover rulebooks they release. They're usually very well put-together, and I really like printed materials. What I do have a problem with is them charging $50 (or even $30) for digital copies of the rules. Those rules should be low-cost, or available with a subscription fee, on the understanding that they'll be updated regularly. Likewise, the physical books should carry with them the implication/warning that they'll be invalidated quickly, but come with vouchers/coupons for free digital downloads. Currently, GW handles this is in the worst way possible, but it seems like they're moving to a digital strategy for 40k that has regularly-updated army lists and rules, with "seasonal" changes. Which is a good change, but it'll depend on the final implementation. All that said, I see why they charge for the rules, though--unlike their competitors, GW has players who are playing with armies bought/painted 10+ years ago. If they aren't interested in a new army, the only way to get revenue out of them is to convince them to buy a new rulebook. Which isn't an enviable business position to be in. I'm not saying this justifies the model they've decided to do (I think free rules with subscription-based access to a full, continually-updated rules library is the way to go), but I don't fault them for sticking to printed rules this long either.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:49
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Avenging Dentist posted:i thought gw was good for a while but that was back when the only non-gw figures i had seen were the amateurish mush-faced sculpts from reaper and the like I bought infinity models and I realized chunky plastic is sometime okay. I am not loving pinning a 1mm wide by 3mm long piece of metal to a model. That poo poo went in the garbage.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:50
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nopantsjack posted:Gw models have high resolution especially compared to something super garbage like mantics elves but I stopped liking them as kits (the majority at least, some still are customisable which is what I crave) some time ago and think lately they look more and more poorly posed despite being more detailed than ever. yeah if someone says "mantic figures are as good as/better than gw" they are either a) loving insane, b) talking strictly about ease of assembling a large army, or c) thinking exclusively of the half-dozen decent sculpts they've produced in their lifetime TKIY posted:I bought infinity models and I realized chunky plastic is sometime okay. I am not loving pinning a 1mm wide by 3mm long piece of metal to a model. That poo poo went in the garbage. pinning is extremely simple and the only thing i worry about with infinity-style figures is protruding stuff breaking, but gw has the same issue with a lot of their figures that said, if you don't like the hobby side of things i'd recommend buying some single-part figures instead of gw, who feels the need to break up even basic-rear end models into a half-dozen or so parts Avenging Dentist fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 18:50
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Mar 30, 2017 18:52
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Broken Record Talk posted:Well, AoS is a new system starting a new mythos from scratch. People didn't let it grow, like everything it needs time to do so. AoS didn't spring out of a vacuum. They shat all over an existing game and setting then tossed it into the dumpster. People still feel a little raw about it and find some dark humor in watching it happen again.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:52
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this is pretty cute
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Mar 30, 2017 18:53
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Avenging Dentist posted:i thought gw was good for a while but that was back when the only non-gw figures i had seen were the amateurish mush-faced sculpts from reaper and the like  - "A good model", Avenging Dentist
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Mar 30, 2017 18:53
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Mango Polo posted:
this is pretty cute
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Mar 30, 2017 18:54
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The frostgrave box sets are the models I crave at the moment, lots of variety and they even look like GW models did before everyone quit. Forgeworld has some pretty talented modellers still, I like a decent amount of their 30k stuff. Also the solar auxilia look sweet and they were just some dudes passion project apparently.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:54
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Safety Factor posted:I have several major issues with paying for rules: 2) The hobby, no matter if it is GW, or Malifaux, or whatever, is already expensive. If you can pay for models but can't afford a rulebook, maybe you should be looking for another hobby. 2a) I do, however, agree with you when it comes to 40+ codexes. If this is your argument, I'm on board. 3) This is ridiculous. You could say the exact same thing with digital distribution. I'd go as far to say that print makes rules more accessible, just like it makes information more accessible. Gutenberg's press is famous for a reason. 4) There are plenty of army builder options out there, plenty are free. 5) Yes, edition changes are disruptive, but they do shake things up and increase interest in a game system. Look how much people are talking about 8th ed. People are coming out of the woodwork saying they're excited for the edition because 7th is such a mess.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:53
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Mango Polo posted:
quote:but i generally don't criticize a range by its absolute worst model even if it is really bad in this case
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Mar 30, 2017 18:55
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berzerkmonkey posted:Let's play a game of chess - I'm going to use bottlecaps though, since I forgot my pieces at home. Trust me when I tell you what they represent, ok? It's just a game, am I rite? Sure, here's a sharpie to mark each piece up.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:55
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berzerkmonkey posted:4) There are plenty of army builder options out there, plenty are free. Yeah I ignored that one but it's pretty bonkers. Everyone I know that plays 40k uses a digital Army Builder and it usually gets updated with new books within a week of release
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Mar 30, 2017 18:55
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Mango Polo posted:
Bad anime aside that looks about the same quality as a lot of GWs range they're still charging loads for. Fwiw I don't really like infinitys models although some do look sweet. I think I remember really liking the look of the combined alien army starter guys.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:55
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Cat Face Joe posted:Sure, here's a sharpie to mark each piece up. sure here's a catalogue to order the right models
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Mar 30, 2017 18:56
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berzerkmonkey posted:1) No, it just modifies a particular sentence/section. An FAQ or update doesn't invalidate anyone's printed book. Are you referring to an edition change? The internet is the better Gutenberg's press.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:56
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Mango Polo posted:
lol people always trot this one out as some killer blow against Infinity. 1. That model is old as hell and has been replaced. 2. There's actually way worse ones than that.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:56
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nopantsjack posted:Bad anime aside that looks about the same quality as a lot of GWs range they're still charging loads for. please stop flicking through the same 1989 catalogue you've had since you were 8
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Mar 30, 2017 18:57
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Cat Face Joe posted:lol people always trot this one out as some killer blow against Infinity. sorry I don't believe 1. this thread has taught me that companies cannot absolutely not ever change and they will always be bad, so infinity is weeaboo trash and so is corvus belli.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:58
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You also linked to a sculptor who flippin loves making himself some 28mm tittays so....?
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Mar 30, 2017 18:58
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Cat Face Joe posted:Sure, here's a sharpie to mark each piece up. But that isn't the argument - the argument was that it doesn't matter what you use in a game, whether they be 28mm Germans, sci-fi knights, or coasters. The guy across from me isn't going to write "GUARDSMAN WITH PLASMA GUN" across the model's chest.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:58
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 -"This makes me hard", Avenging Dentist
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Mar 30, 2017 18:58
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Cat Face Joe posted:lol people always trot this one out as some killer blow against Infinity. also if we're just going to show the worst models a company has ever produced i'll just post gw's pygmies for a full page
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Mar 30, 2017 18:58
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TheChirurgeon posted:I don't have a problem with them charging $50 for the hardcover rulebooks they release. They're usually very well put-together, and I really like printed materials. berzerkmonkey posted:1) No, it just modifies a particular sentence/section. An FAQ or update doesn't invalidate anyone's printed book. Are you referring to an edition change? 2) List Building Software: This has always been a grey to black area anyway in regards to 3rd parties reproducing the rules from copyrighted sources. Battlescribe is the worst for this, though some aspects have begun to refer to the BRB. A lot of people use Battlescribe to replace the codexes/supplements. If GW developed/bought Battlescribe and continued with the model they are using, then there would be no copyright issue. 3) There is a lot of competition for digital storage space. When smartphones were first released, 8GB was seen as huge, now, 16GB is BARE MINIMUM most people can cope with, with options up to 128GB if not more. So, storing downloaded rules means you have to sacrifice other aspects of your life. Toting a rulebook or however many around isn't so bad in some cases. 4) New Players: Since GW brought out the Getting Started Boxed Sets, they have all included a "Straight from the box" formation, and many instruction books now have BASIC profiles etc. While this enables new players to get things going in a basic manner, how are they going to know which model (for example) is the sergeant, or get painting ideas/exposure to other chapters without the wealth of information in the codex? 5) New editions: This has been an issue since 3rd edition was dropped. GW seem to be searching for something from 40K, and they don't appear to have found it yet. I've thought that 7th edition is one of the best editions I have played after 2nd. It is deep, provides many new ways to build armies, and with the new range of large models, allows for some great story-driven games/campaigns/narratives/scenarios to be played out. At the end of the day, free rules can only take you so far, yes, there is the "living" aspect to it, however, if we are approaching the best rules system GW can design, there should be fewer edition-wide changes, but what is the "cost" of free rules? Will all other Marine chapters be wiped out because GW only includes Ultramarines Transfers in their boxes now? Will Ultramarines become the ONLY Codex chapter allowed in the era of "free rules" to ensure GW don't have to rerelease multi-chapter sheets? There is no such thing as a "Rigid Release Cycle", in the sense you mean. It's something that has evolved from 3rd edition, and, when they didn't get it quite right, they started tinkering with it more frequently. I mean, 7th isn't really an old system now, is it? 8th could benefit from something more along the lines of this: Update rulebooks with the FAQ/Errata either incorporated into the material (little text boxes that ask/answer questions as they go) or as a reference section at the end. Update all non-decurion codexes to fit the same as codexes after Space Marines. Run a yearly faction supplement, or even half-yearly with a book like Angels of Death, nothing too out of most people's budget, but something that re-energizes the faction, and brings it in line with the others. OR Publish all rules books with tear-out pages, where the pages can be included in a binder/set of pockets, and pages are re-released as and when they need to be. When new units are released for a faction, those rules appear in White Dwarf initially, then when there are enough new releases, an AoD style book, with, yup, tear out pages to add to the Codex. Remember, White Dwarf HAS been a vessel for new units and rules, and is coming back towards that. However, ensuring every rule is free, and should always be so? You don't get the durability from home-printed that you do from published.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:59
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Xir posted:The internet is the better Gutenberg's press. Tell that to the guy in the convention center that can't get Internet access because he's not staying at the adjacent hotel.
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Mar 30, 2017 18:58
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Mango Polo posted:
if you insist 
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Mar 30, 2017 19:00
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Mango Polo posted:
i would play this game
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