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Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition? This poll is closed. |
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| Jeremy Corbyn |
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95 | 18.63% |
| Dennis Skinner |
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53 | 10.39% |
| Angus Robertson |
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20 | 3.92% |
| Tim Farron |
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9 | 1.76% |
| Paul Ukips |
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7 | 1.37% |
| Robot Lenin |
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105 | 20.59% |
| Tony Blair |
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28 | 5.49% |
| Pissflaps |
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193 | 37.84% |
| Total: | 510 votes | ||
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Also it's irrelevant to how a new leader does, who would be better off having more time to put their stamp on the party. You think how labour performs now is irrelevant to labour's fortunes in the future? Horse poo poo. It will take years to undo the damage being done. Call me a red tory all you like - the actual Tories loving love what you've done to the Labour Party.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:13
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Britian is booming post-Brexit! quote:More than 100 people queued up for the opening of Poundworld in Sutton High Street.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:44
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Benjamin Arthur posted:Whats the point in a "slightly left leaning" Labour leader on a political spectrum where neoliberlism dominates the centre? Theres not really much opposition in advocating policies that essentially entrench the status quo. Like, if we're going that way then what's the point of participating in parliamentary politics? Because you're not going to have wide scale left wing candidates winning until you have removed the poison from the well as far as "being socialist" goes. I'd hoped a Corbyn leadership would have achieved this and dragged politics a bit to the left and was even willing to sacrifice the 2020 election for that on the basis that there didn't really look like much in the way of hope of winning in 2020. Corbyn as leader was absolutely the right thing to do at the time, but it's not worked. Clinging on to him on the basis that the other potential replacements aren't left wing enough when the alternative is another 5 years of Tory government seems like missing the forest for the trees. Personally, I have serious concerns about 5 more years of Tory government gutting the NHS I rely upon, the benefit system I have often relied upon, and myriad of other public services that I and other poor folk have had to use and without which we'd be up poo poo creek. Ultimately, all I've come away from the Corbyn experiment with is a sense that neoliberalism isn't going to be beaten through the ballot box without things getting a whole heap worse, and I simply can't see myself surviving through that particular bout of accelerationism. Sorry if that seems selfish. Also, we're talking about social democrats rather than actual neoliberals here, but sure, overreact and obsess about ideological purity, that's definitely proven to be a winning strategy many times in the past 150+ years of left wing history. Oh dear me posted:When did I suggest giving up? You're the one who's apparently willing to accept Keir loving Starmer as Labour leader. How is keeping Corbyn as leader not giving up on the 2020 election? With all the best will in the world, he's as unpopular as gently caress and has proven to have the media savviness of a dead moose. Like I said above, I just can't afford 5 more years of Tory government, sorry. Wish I could. Hell, maybe I'd even be willing to suffer through 5 more years if there was a prospect of light at the end of the tunnel, but where the gently caress is that meant to come from, do tell. Jose posted:so would pissflaps and Miliband got us a tory majority Yeah, I'm under no illusions that Miliband would be a shoo-in to win in 2020, but he'd still do better than Corbyn. With the reduction of 50 MPs next year, we're already looking at a massive uphill struggle as it is. "So would Pissflaps" is a terrible argument for remaining hitched to the sinking ship of Corbyn's leadership btw. Pissflaps can remain annoying (& he wants Labour to lose the election purely for the sake of schadenfreude so yeah, gently caress Pissflaps, that's even worse than accelerationism) and yet not be wrong about Corbyn being bad for Labour's electoral chances. I don't get how "Corbyn is electoral poison" is somehow a contentious statement but there we go. Guess it's similar to the liberals in America looking for a million excuses for why their "bae" Hilary lost, rather than just confronting that she was a poo poo candidate with poo poo policies, who ran a poo poo campaign that seemed to ignore how the President is elected. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 16:44
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No. I don't want labour to lose the next election. I want labour to win the next election.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:59
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I think you're kidding yourself if you think replacing the leader will win the next election for Labour. In order to do that you'd have to get the media on side, and in order to do that you have to sell out to the owners of the media, which means going Tory. If you rely on the NHS, you should probably be supporting the people who support it (Corbyn and his team), not proposing replacing them with people who will continue to destroy it (the PLP and whatever goblin the Daily Mail convinces them to run as leader). All that Corbyn standing down would achieve is moving Labour to the right and proving that the scummy tactics of Murdoch and the PLP are successful and should be emulated.
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Mar 31, 2017 16:59
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Dariusz does not sound very anglo-saxon. e: I thought it said "Britain is becoming post-Brexit", nevermind carry on
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Mar 31, 2017 17:01
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Gort posted:I think you're kidding yourself if you think replacing the leader will win the next election for Labour. In order to do that you'd have to get the media on side, and in order to do that you have to sell out to the owners of the media, which means going Tory. If there's anything that Farage and Trump have proved, you don't really need the media to support you; you need the media to notice you.
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Mar 31, 2017 17:06
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Old Granny wants to get in their first before those millennials get their grubby hands on her £1 bargains.
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Mar 31, 2017 17:24
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Some more Brexit polling: https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/847096671976767489 https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/847096129590300677
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Mar 31, 2017 17:25
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Pissflaps posted:Because if he leaves before the next election labour will be haunted by 'Jezza would have won'. So the PLP systematically undermining him since his victory and holding a pointless second leadership contest has had no impact whatsoever on how Labour is perceived by the electorate? Pissflaps posted:You think how labour performs now is irrelevant to labour's fortunes in the future? Horse poo poo. It will take years to undo the damage being done. Labours still suffering from the damage done by Tony Blair, lumping all the blame on Corbyn is typically simplistic of you. The fact still remains though, your answer to beating the Tories is essentially to emulate them, which in turn removes socialism entirely from mainstream political discourse in this country.
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Mar 31, 2017 17:43
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 TinTower posted:If there's anything that Farage and Trump have proved, you don't really need the media to support you; you need the media to notice you.
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Mar 31, 2017 17:44
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Benjamin Arthur posted:So the PLP systematically undermining him since his victory and holding a pointless second leadership contest has had no impact whatsoever on how Labour is perceived by the electorate? According to polling data, the impact is negligible. quote:Labours still suffering from the damage done by Tony Blair, lumping all the blame on Corbyn is typically simplistic of you. The fact still remains though, your answer to beating the Tories is essentially to emulate them, which in turn removes socialism entirely from mainstream political discourse in this country. Thatll be the damage of three labour governments in a row? Boring 'red tory' shite that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Vulnerable people and public services will pay the price of Corbynism. It's an abject failure.
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Mar 31, 2017 17:47
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Gort posted:I think you're kidding yourself if you think replacing the leader will win the next election for Labour. In order to do that you'd have to get the media on side, and in order to do that you have to sell out to the owners of the media, which means going Tory. How is Jeremy Corbyn leading Labour to having an even smaller number of MPs helping the NHS though? Because that's the end result here; an even smaller Labour Party, gains for the Liberals and Tories, none of which actually helps reverse the rightward slant of the country or protects public services. Even if I pretend to agree that in all circumstances the 2020 election is unwinnable for Labour, I'd rather have more Labour MPs than less, whether that's enough to reach a majority or not. If we were talking about the prospect of a strong, left-wing opposition, I could stomach that, but that's not what we've got, is it? I dunno, at what point are you willing to accept that Corbyn is a write-off, that the idea was good, the intentions were noble, but that at the end of the day, we need an end to Tory government really loving soon?
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Mar 31, 2017 17:48
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Maybe if you want a genuinely fair and compassionate society our parliamentary democracy just isn't the answer. 
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Mar 31, 2017 17:53
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Pissflaps posted:According to polling data, the impact is negligible. Polling data couldn't accurately predict Brexit or the outcome of the last general election. I doubt theres sufficient evidence that the PLP undermining Corbyn has had no effect on Corbyn or the Labour parties approval ratings unless you go looking with a hefty dose of confirmation bias. Done your way vulnerable people would lose the only party willing to improve their lives in a tide of striver v skiver "business friendly" anti-immigrant neoliberal shite.
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Mar 31, 2017 17:53
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Guavanaut posted:
Someone hacked his Twitter account to do one tweet in his style. 
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Mar 31, 2017 17:54
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forkboy84 posted:
Literally nobody in the Labour party is likely to deliver this.
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Mar 31, 2017 17:55
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Benjamin Arthur posted:Polling data couldn't accurately predict Brexit or the outcome of the last general election. I doubt theres sufficient evidence that the PLP undermining Corbyn has had no effect on Corbyn or the Labour parties approval ratings unless you go looking with a hefty dose of confirmation bias. But at least they'd be wearing red ties instead of blue while they were selling off the social safety net. That's the important thing my dude; you're missing the big picture here.
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Mar 31, 2017 17:56
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Benjamin Arthur posted:Done your way vulnerable people would lose the only party willing to improve their lives in a tide of striver v skiver "business friendly" anti-immigrant neoliberal shite. The last Labour government improved many peoples lives.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:01
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forkboy84 posted:I dunno, at what point are you willing to accept that Corbyn is a write-off, that the idea was good, the intentions were noble, but that at the end of the day, we need an end to Tory government really loving soon? I'm with Pissflaps in that we need to keep the Tory Government in so that the British people know that they shat the bed, that they must lie in it no matter how long it takes.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:01
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Extreme0 posted:I'm with Pissflaps in that we need to keep the Tory Government in so that the British people know that they shat the bed, that they must lie in it no matter how long it takes. The problem with this is that many people prosper under Tory governments. It's the vulnerable that suffer.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:03
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Oberleutnant posted:But at least they'd be wearing red ties instead of blue while they were selling off the social safety net. That's the important thing my dude; you're missing the big picture here. and with those sweet media connections we won't have to wait 6 hours for answers on Labour policies; we can read about them straight from their source in the Murdoch press
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Mar 31, 2017 18:03
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Benjamin Arthur posted:Literally nobody in the Labour party is likely to deliver this. Judging by the success of Theresa May so far, I have no idea how you can come to that conclusion, but again, even if you accept the most pessimistic view, why is it better to keep Corbyn and have a smaller Parliamentary Labour Party than it is to have a different leader who is still on the left but is not as completely loving divisive internally and have a a bigger, stronger Labour opposition? Oberleutnant posted:Maybe if you want a genuinely fair and compassionate society our parliamentary democracy just isn't the answer. Entirely agree. Nothing genuinely transformative or revolutionary is going to come from Westminster. But while it exists, I'd rather it work to reduce how terrible poo poo is even a little, because I can't really afford anything else. Extreme0 posted:I'm with Pissflaps in that we need to keep the Tory Government in so that the British people know that they shat the bed, that they must lie in it no matter how long it takes. I certainly envy anyone well enough where the destruction of what's left of the welfare is acceptable so long as they get some schadenfreude at people with false consciousness. Does seem rather dickish though.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:04
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Oberleutnant posted:Maybe if you want a genuinely fair and compassionate society our parliamentary democracy just isn't the answer. Agreed. I think Corbyn supporters should abandon it entirely.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:05
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Pissflaps posted:The last Labour government improved many peoples lives.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:07
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forkboy84 posted:to have a different leader who is still on the left Pretty sure we'd[*] all be happy with this. It's not on offer. The people who want to ditch Corbyn want to make sure it is never on offer. quote:I can't really afford anything else. gently caress off with this, you're not the only poor here. e: [*] Corbyn supporters I mean, not Pissflaps Oh dear me fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Mar 31, 2017 |
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Mar 31, 2017 18:08
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I agree, but Tony Blair ended up poisoning the public's perception of himself and the Labour Party by extension by being a lying, maniacal warmonger. Even if you personally think the good he did outweighs that that's not how the general public sees it. Yet he won an election even after the invasion of Iraq and I don't recall it being a talking point in 2010 and certainly not in 2015. Any reputational damage has been personal, not to the party. I of course welcome evidence to the contrary.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:09
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forkboy84 posted:Judging by the success of Theresa May so far, I have no idea how you can come to that conclusion, but again, even if you accept the most pessimistic view, why is it better to keep Corbyn and have a smaller Parliamentary Labour Party than it is to have a different leader who is still on the left but is not as completely loving divisive internally and have a a bigger, stronger Labour opposition? Many of the Blairites are not on the left and have open disdain for the left. No potential leader has the ability not to be divisive because the Labour party is pretty split between a mostly leftist membership and a mostly neoliberal PLP. I'm sorry for your predicament genuinely, but personally I don't think there's any real chance of things improving soon, but there remains a chance in the long-term as long as Labour remains a genuine ideological alternative.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:10
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Oh dear me posted:Pretty sure we'd[*] all be happy with this. It's not on offer. The people who want to ditch Corbyn want to make sure it is never on offer. Rather than loving up the labour party by trying to make it something it isn't, wouldn't it make more sense to take an existing socialist party and focus on building up its popularity? Or even turn Momentum into a party? If there's a groundswell of support waiting to be tapped, thwarted by the dastardly PLP, why not sidestep it entirely?
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Mar 31, 2017 18:12
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Pissflaps posted:Rather than loving up the labour party by trying to make it something it isn't, wouldn't it make more sense to take an existing socialist party and focus on building up its popularity? Or even turn Momentum into a party? Labour is the socialist party, gently caress off to the Lib Dems.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:13
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Benjamin Arthur posted:Labour is the socialist party, gently caress off to the Lib Dems. Labour is the centre left party.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:16
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Pissflaps posted:Labour is the centre left party. The Liberal Democrats are the centre left party.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:18
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Benjamin Arthur posted:Many of the Blairites are not on the left and have open disdain for the left. No potential leader has the ability not to be divisive because the Labour party is pretty split between a mostly leftist membership and a mostly neoliberal PLP. I'm sorry for your predicament genuinely, but personally I don't think there's any real chance of things improving soon, but there remains a change in the long-term as long as Labour remains a genuine ideological alternative. No Blairite will win a leadership contest right now. I mean if we're going to dwell in fantasy politics, I'd rather put my hopes in a revolution from below happening than in any wing of the Labour Party winning an election. But we don't live in that, we live in the real world, with consequences. Oh dear me posted:Pretty sure we'd[*] all be happy with this. It's not on offer. The people who want to ditch Corbyn want to make sure it is never on offer. Well, it depends what who you define as "left enough", isn't it? Is Lisa Nandy not left enough purely because she supported the coup on Corbyn last summer? Because that's the extent of the case against her. If "has the same policies as Corbyn" then no, obviously it's not on offer. But after the Corbyn year I suspect you'll find the Labour right more willing to compromise with a left of centre candidate. No, John McDonnell won't be the next Labour leader, nor will Dennis Skinner. But a left of centre Labour government is better than a democratic Labour who aren't even organised enough to be a proper opposition. Also, I've not ever said I'm the only poor person, only that accelerationism is a terrible idea that hurts the poorest far more than anyone else, in the vague hope that the far right won't be better at capitalising on whatever disaster we end up in than the far left. And it has a direct impact on me, as it does on others.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:19
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Centre left is dead, labour is dead. There is no future for that kind of politics, people will rather vote right wing.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:19
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Benjamin Arthur posted:The Liberal Democrats are the centre left party. Oh dear. His Divine Shadow posted:Centre left is dead, labour is dead. There is no future for that kind of politics, people will rather vote right wing. Agreed. That's why Corbyn's attempts to move Labour further left have proved so popular.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:19
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Pissflaps posted:Oh dear. Did you just have an epiphany that theres the perfect party out there for your third way horseshit and that all this time arguing pedantically has been somehow wasted?
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Mar 31, 2017 18:22
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Benjamin Arthur posted:Did you just have an epiphany that theres the perfect party out there for your third way horseshit and that all this time arguing pedantically has been somehow wasted? No but I am resigned to Tory governments until at least 2030 thanks to people like you. Let's hope we're all healthy and wealthy enough to survive it.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:24
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Pissflaps posted:The problem with this is that many people prosper under Tory governments. It's the vulnerable that suffer. And yet no one will give a poo poo when they go to vote. You can moan about the vulnerable and the weak but the British people are like everyone else. A majorty will vote Tory for they don't care even if it makes them worse off. forkboy84 posted:I certainly envy anyone well enough where the destruction of what's left of the welfare is acceptable so long as they get some schadenfreude at people with false consciousness. Does seem rather dickish though. I loving love schadenfreude. The feeling of those who are against my ideals, suffering is like the greatest high I can ask for. forkboy84 posted:only that accelerationism is a terrible idea Too late. We are already on the track now. Quite an amazing subhuman species of parasites the British are. Pissflaps posted:No but I am resigned to Tory governments until at least 2030 thanks to people like you. This is why I love schadenfreude. I'm so getting off on this poo poo right now.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:26
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Pissflaps posted:Agreed. That's why Corbyn's attempts to move Labour further left have proved so popular. He pretty much failed in moving labour left.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:31
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Pissflaps posted:No but I am resigned to Tory governments until at least 2030 thanks to people like you. I quite enthusiastically support the Labour Party and its leader. If Labour manages to defeat the Tories somehow I don't think it will be thanks to people like you who have nothing beyond condescending pessimism to offer.
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Mar 31, 2017 18:32
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