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X-O posted:I mean what is the takeaway for a company though when you launch a book like Silk or Patsy Walker and the sales just aren't there? Sure you can say all you want that we need more books like that, and I will miss the hell out of Silk, but if the market doesn't support the statement that you need books like that then you obviously don't. Again as much as you want to think of this as an art it's a business foremost. If people don't buy the books it's an easy indicator that there's either no demand for it or there's some kind of pushback against it. I'm not calling for keeping books that don't sell going but IMO it's analyzing the market and coming back with the wrong conclusion that will result in them doing something dumb like say worst possible case, cancelling Ms Marvel or All-New Wolverine because "too much diversity" I think Lurdiak has it right, books like Silk get lost in the shuffle because of the constant pushing of events, it's always been the case, this is just a new excuse to ignore that.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:43
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There's probably something in that the people who spend literally 80-100 bucks a week on books alone aren't buying Ms. Marvel or Spider-Woman, and the people who are buying those books are only buying one or two books a week. And the former group probably spends a lot more money on merchandise as well. I mean, videogames aren't exactly the same as comic books, but the high spending category in both probably has decent overlap and this just came out. http://kotaku.com/look-at-this-699-witcher-3-statue-1793882458
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Mar 31, 2017 22:47
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Skwirl posted:There's probably something in that the people who spend literally 80-100 bucks a week on books alone aren't buying Ms. Marvel or Spider-Woman, and the people who are buying those books are only buying one or two books a week. And the former group probably spends a lot more money on merchandise as well. It sucks that the latter audience is basically a captive to the whims of the former. Skwirl posted:I mean, videogames aren't exactly the same as comic books, but the high spending category in both probably has decent overlap and this just came out. I don't want to buy a $700 statute of her or anything but I like Yenn 
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Mar 31, 2017 22:49
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The whole "too many events" argument is just scapegoating. If the book is being interrupted by events I can buy that argument. But a reader of Silk isn't going to stop reading Silk because of completely unrelated events like Inhumans vs X-Men or Civil War II. At least they shouldn't if they're smart. They should just not read those event books. If they abandon Silk then they're not sending a message that will be heard because those event books are going to sell way more than Silk anyway and they're only hurting a book that won't survive otherwise.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:50
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No I mean some people who might be interested in books like Silk aren't paying attention to them because they're not part of events. I think part of the problem too is that Marvel at least seems to have no idea how to cater to different audiences for their superhero books, at least where monthlies and digital vs physical buyers are concerned.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:50
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X-O posted:The whole "too many events" argument is just scapegoating. If the book is being interrupted by events I can buy that argument. But a reader of Silk isn't going to stop reading Silk because of completely unrelated events like Inhumans vs X-Men or Civil War II. At least they shouldn't if they're smart. They should just not read those event books. If they abandon Silk then they're not sending a message that will be heard because those event books are going to sell way more than Silk anyway and they're only hurting a book that won't survive otherwise. Actually there is an alarming trend of pull list customers skipping tie in books.
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Mar 31, 2017 22:53
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Tbf silks last issues were clone conspiracy tieins
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Mar 31, 2017 22:54
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It sucks there's pushback but for some reason there's a large portion of the comic community for superhero comics that just wants the same poo poo from childhood spoon fed to them. Years ago it was always the phrase "We're taking Spider-man back to his roots." and it's like "Goddamnit, get away from the roots. Trees are supposed to grow."
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Mar 31, 2017 22:55
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Rhyno posted:Actually there is an alarming trend of pull list customers skipping tie in books. Sweet vindication Do you think Marvel is better at targeting their collections to a wider crowd than their monthlies? Gatts posted:It sucks there's pushback but for some reason there's a large portion of the comic community for superhero comics that just wants the same poo poo from childhood spoon fed to them. Years ago it was always the phrase "We're taking Spider-man back to his roots." and it's like "Goddamnit, get away from the roots. Trees are supposed to grow." These people can never be pleased, they bitch if stuff changes and bitch if it stays the same too, then they still buy stuff. At least that's how it used to be don't know if Sam Hyde's fan army are are actually dropping stuff if a lady appears
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Mar 31, 2017 22:55
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Rhyno posted:Actually there is an alarming trend of pull list customers skipping tie in books. Yes this has been the case for a while and was part of what I was stating. I was talking about Silk which did not tie-in to any of the big events this past year like Civil War II or Inhumans vs X-Men. So blaming its sales on events doesn't hold water. And if the argument is that it gets buried and forgotten because it doesn't tie into events then what the hell is it supposed to do? Get cancelled. And it did.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:00
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enigmahfc posted:It also doesn't help that a lot of comic book buyers are, like, really close-minded people. There may be some of that. Some of the most weirdly conservative people I've ever known were also massive nerds. More accurately, however, I think it's that there's too much safety and security in modern genre work, regardless of medium. It's choking out original ideas and making it difficult to expand your audience. In the video games space, for example, you don't get to do poo poo at major publishers right now unless you're either working within an established franchise or you're trying to establish a franchise. It's causing a big exodus to small indie studios. In the context of Marvel, the current diversity initiative is a catch-22, and it's one that a lot of fans don't realize is there. Marvel's current editorial crew is probably the least white and male it's ever been; Quesada's Cuban, Axel Alonso is a Mexican guy married to a Korean lady, Sana Amanat is Pakistani, etc. They understand and appreciate the criticism that Marvel's main cast of characters is overwhelmingly white and male, and they'd like to do something about it, because they want to expand their audience. However, because that audience are a bunch of nerds, Marvel can't just introduce a bunch of brand-new characters and call it good. Whenever they've tried, nobody buys the book and it either lurches to an early death or it bounces across major crossovers for a couple of years before being quietly canceled. For as much as they may vocally complain, the fans have spoken, and they have overwhelmingly said that they are in this hobby because they really, really want more of the same thing they grew up on, and they get truly irate if you gently caress with their supply. What Marvel's done, effectively, is said outright that they're a lot more interested in getting new people into stores than they are in keeping the old people on the hook, which is a sensible approach unless you're one of the whinier old people.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:03
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X-O posted:Yes this has been the case for a while and was part of what I was stating. I was talking about Silk which did not tie-in to any of the big events this past year like Civil War II or Inhumans vs X-Men. So blaming its sales on events doesn't hold water. And if the argument is that it gets buried and forgotten because it doesn't tie into events then what the hell is it supposed to do? Get cancelled. And it did. Anyway my point that I think got a little lost was that if their takeaway is "Diversity is the only reason these books fail" and don't do anything but I don't know put a cap on non-white characters or some poo poo, I don't think it's going to magically result in everything selling better across the board, no matter how much WerthamInAction declares it an eternal victory
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Mar 31, 2017 23:16
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I don't know much about the business side of things so my question is whether Marvel or DC are good at growing their overall comics business in the first place. Things like diversity or event comics or relaunches are okay for arguing about how the pie gets divvied up but has the pie been getting any bigger? Do customers tend to grow their overall comic book spend as more titles entice them or do they have a limit and only pick up a new comic only if they drop another one?
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Mar 31, 2017 23:16
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Lobok posted:I don't know much about the business side of things so my question is whether Marvel or DC are good at growing their overall comics business in the first place. Things like diversity or event comics or relaunches are okay for arguing about how the pie gets divvied up but has the pie been getting any bigger? Everything I know about the business side is based on things I've read and what people have told me so take it with a grain of salt but from my understanding the pie grows but not massively and in different ways, like there's a lot of people who are only digital, or buy collections and also if Marvel feels Unlimited subscriptions don't "count" then that's stupid.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:20
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Unlimited subs count as making money. But they don't really do anything beyond that. Like they're not counting a read issue of Silk on MU as a Silk sale and nor should they.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:26
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It just feels like the Big 2 are each two different publishing companies smashed together in terms of monthlies vs collections/unlimited, you know?
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Mar 31, 2017 23:28
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Lightning Lord posted:Everything I know about the business side is based on things I've read and what people have told me so take it with a grain of salt but from my understanding the pie grows but not massively and in different ways, like there's a lot of people who are only digital, or buy collections and also if Marvel feels Unlimited subscriptions don't "count" then that's stupid. You mention subscriptions and it makes me think trying to grow new comics at Marvel must be so maddening. Getting someone to try a new TV show is easier because once the cable subscription is paid for the only limit on how much TV a person can watch is time. But if you had to pay for each new series you wanted to watch then you might feel as though you'd have to stop watching one of your other favourites. It'd be great if tons of people started buying Hellcat or whatever but if customers need their Spider-Man every month then what do you do?
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Mar 31, 2017 23:30
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I bet there've been more mentions of Silk in these last two pages than the last six months of thread.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:33
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Teenage Fansub posted:I bet there've been more mentions of Silk in these last two pages than the last six months of thread. Poor, poor Silk. Was she really a target for internet crazies though? I always felt they were more angry about USURPERS like Sam Wilson as Cap
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Mar 31, 2017 23:35
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Lobok posted:You mention subscriptions and it makes me think trying to grow new comics at Marvel must be so maddening. Getting someone to try a new TV show is easier because once the cable subscription is paid for the only limit on how much TV a person can watch is time. But if you had to pay for each new series you wanted to watch then you might feel as though you'd have to stop watching one of your other favourites. This is what a lot of people don't understand. In an ideal world you could have Jane Foster get powers and have her own identity that isn't taking over for Thor but that book wouldn't make it past issue 10 if it even got that far. With the name Thor on the cover that books is going to sale at a certain level regardless. You're even going to have a certain whiny, but admittedly smaller, section of the readership that hates Jane Foster still reading because it's a Thor book and they never would have picked up the book otherwise. There's very few people that can launch a Big 2 book with a completely new idea and have it not fall into cancellation territory quick. And that's a problem right there. Really only a creator can do it. You can't have some young up and comer have a good idea for a book and expect it to get made at DC or Marvel. Not because those companies are resistant the idea of new stuff, but because it's not feasible because the readers won't buy it.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:38
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Lobok posted:You mention subscriptions and it makes me think trying to grow new comics at Marvel must be so maddening. Getting someone to try a new TV show is easier because once the cable subscription is paid for the only limit on how much TV a person can watch is time. But if you had to pay for each new series you wanted to watch then you might feel as though you'd have to stop watching one of your other favourites. Cancel spiderman imo
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Mar 31, 2017 23:40
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I'd still like to blame Clone Conspiracy for Silk's cancellation. That was 4 issues in a row to tie-in an event that launched a few dead-on-the-water books, like Prawler. Not that Silk had amazing numbers and was going to live forever, but CC being what dropped the numbers to death makes sense.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:41
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Marvel is on a roll today. Look at half of the stories on the front page of BC right now. https://www.bleedingcool.com/
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Mar 31, 2017 23:41
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X-O posted:This is what a lot of people don't understand. In an ideal world you could have Jane Foster get powers and have her own identity that isn't taking over for Thor but that book wouldn't make it past issue 10 if it even got that far. With the name Thor on the cover that books is going to sale at a certain level regardless. You're even going to have a certain whiny, but admittedly smaller, section of the readership that hates Jane Foster still reading because it's a Thor book and they never would have picked up the book otherwise. Also part of the problem is why should big name people bring their best ideas to the work for hire cape world when they can get an Image book going?
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Mar 31, 2017 23:44
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ArmyOfMidgets posted:I'd still like to blame Clone Conspiracy for Silk's cancellation. That was 4 issues in a row to tie-in an event that launched a few dead-on-the-water books, like Prawler. Not that Silk had amazing numbers and was going to live forever, but CC being what dropped the numbers to death makes sense. Silk was pretty much done before Clone Conspiracy even started. If anything it was a last ditch effort to save the book. Also as a Spider-Man title with an obvious tie to the event in Jonah (he's been present more in that title than Amazing Spider-Man) you pretty much had to tie into it.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:45
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X-O posted:This is what a lot of people don't understand. In an ideal world you could have Jane Foster get powers and have her own identity that isn't taking over for Thor but that book wouldn't make it past issue 10 if it even got that far. With the name Thor on the cover that books is going to sale at a certain level regardless. You're even going to have a certain whiny, but admittedly smaller, section of the readership that hates Jane Foster still reading because it's a Thor book and they never would have picked up the book otherwise. Yeah, that's why Riri is becoming (or became, I mostly only read Marvel on Unlimited) Iron-Man instead of getting a differently titled book and Miles Morales book is just called Spider-Man (I seriously can't believe there were people here who thought Miles should be called Spider-Boy when he entered the 616, was that Mr President?)
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Mar 31, 2017 23:46
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Skwirl posted:Yeah, that's why Riri is becoming (or became, I mostly only read Marvel on Unlimited) Iron-Man instead of getting a differently titled book and Miles Morales book is just called Spider-Man (I seriously can't believe there were people here who thought Miles should be called Spider-Boy when he entered the 616, was that Mr President?) Riri is actually Ironheart. But the cover of the book is the title that matters in this case. Also it's a Bendis book, so it's going to sell a comfortable number based on that alone.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:47
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Aren't comic book sales in general declining anyway? It's not that big of a shock that new characters and just about anybody that's not an A-lister isn't selling all that well to begin with.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:53
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Lightning Lord posted:Also part of the problem is why should big name people bring their best ideas to the work for hire cape world when they can get an Image book going? So, is that (part of) why Geoff Johns has been the top writer at DC for near on 15 years now? Because he seems like a guy who'd be content doing nothing but DC Comics his entire life.
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Mar 31, 2017 23:57
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Frankly, if the recent run of Venom is selling well then I say burn it all down to the ground. Flash was such a step up for Venom as a character, and this new guy is just Cringe McEdgeLord to an extreme.
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Apr 1, 2017 00:10
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Shinjobi posted:Frankly, if the recent run of Venom is selling well then I say burn it all down to the ground. Flash was such a step up for Venom as a character, and this new guy is just Cringe McEdgeLord to an extreme. It seems like right after the first or second issue they put out the promo art of Eddie coming back, so that probably got some people to stick around or even brought some other people in.
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Apr 1, 2017 00:16
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Wheat Loaf posted:So, is that (part of) why Geoff Johns has been the top writer at DC for near on 15 years now? Because he seems like a guy who'd be content doing nothing but DC Comics his entire life. There are some guys who have so many ideas that they can go ahead and burn a few on work-for-hire (Mark Waid, Al Ewing, arguably Warren Ellis) and some who are such fans of the material that they're living the dream and feel no particular compulsion to leave (Johns, Dan Slott). For most of the up-and-comers, though, that's perfectly accurate: they'd make more money in the long run if they simply used a well-regarded run or two at a Big Two company in order to raise their profile, then slink right back to Image with a creator-owned pitch. Marvel even seems to be encouraging that at the moment.
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Apr 1, 2017 00:17
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The financials of Image versus Big 2 hire are so whacked I'm surprised anyone writes for the bif 2 for more than a couple years to get established. I can't remember who, but someone like Hickman or Fraction said they make more money off a 10K selling Image comic than a 40K selling Marvel or DC book.
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Apr 1, 2017 00:21
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Wonder how many fans of the Big 2 only buy from the Big 2. My MU subscription is great not just for letting me read more Marvel but also because the money I used to spend on Marvel trades now goes to buying stuff from Image, Dynamite, etc.
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Apr 1, 2017 00:28
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Skwirl posted:The financials of Image versus Big 2 hire are so whacked I'm surprised anyone writes for the bif 2 for more than a couple years to get established. I can't remember who, but someone like Hickman or Fraction said they make more money off a 10K selling Image comic than a 40K selling Marvel or DC book. I believe that was Gillen.
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Apr 1, 2017 00:30
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Wheat Loaf posted:So, is that (part of) why Geoff Johns has been the top writer at DC for near on 15 years now? Because he seems like a guy who'd be content doing nothing but DC Comics his entire life. Johns has actually done a creator owned comic, Olympus with Butch Guide. It was put out through Humanoids when they had their North American publishing deal with DC. Apparently it's bad.
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Apr 1, 2017 00:31
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Personally as much as I love some of the big names on the big books I also like to see newer people. I mean people completely wrote Dennis Hopeless off after the apparently terrible Avengers Arena (that I never even read) but he goes and puts out solid books like Cable and X-Force and All-New X-Men that are good. And then ends up writing the most charming and possibly best run of Spider-Woman ever. And he's not a guy that can go and make a killing on an Image title right now. But in a few years if he keeps getting better Marvel projects he will be able to do that.Skwirl posted:The financials of Image versus Big 2 hire are so whacked I'm surprised anyone writes for the bif 2 for more than a couple years to get established. I can't remember who, but someone like Hickman or Fraction said they make more money off a 10K selling Image comic than a 40K selling Marvel or DC book. Yeah the biggest names can do that. But anything less than the big names have a hard road ahead of them doing it that way. I'm sure Hickman is making more on East of West than he did Avengers because he owns East of West. But I imagine Frank Barbiere made more writing Avengers World than he does for something like Violent Love even though that's his.
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Apr 1, 2017 00:31
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X-O posted:Personally as much as I love some of the big names on the big books I also like to see newer people. I mean people completely wrote Dennis Hopeless off after the apparently terrible Avengers Arena (that I never even read) but he goes and puts out solid books like Cable and X-Force and All-New X-Men that are good. And then ends up writing the most charming and possibly best run of Spider-Woman ever. And he's not a guy that can go and make a killing on an Image title right now. But in a few years if he keeps getting better Marvel projects he will be able to do that. I think Arena was definitely Hopeless trying to made lemonade out of the hatchetman assignment he was handed
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Apr 1, 2017 00:33
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The diversity thing has multiple problems in tackling it. Firstly, I have to wonder exactly how big of an effect the people who outright don't like it are having. I don't think they're the majority, or even equal in size to the people who are either in favor or don't care. You get hardly any of them here (which is not a big sample size I know) but even on reddit where there tend to be more of them they're also consistently among the most voted down posts. I haven't gotten the impression that they're a big portion of the comic reading population. I think one issue is that the same people who push for diversity are largely also very in favor of supporting independent comics over big companies like Marvel. They want to see the landscape of Marvel and DC change but they also want to support the creators who have more freedom in what they do. So as has been talked about already, the money they can spend is being split not only between Marvel and DC but all these smaller creations as well. And I don't know about DC but Marvel has a -lot- of comics running right now. Then we also have an issue at Marvel where certain writers want to tackle diversity but are kind of bad at writing about certain aspects of it. Champions is a good example of this, even people who would normally like what it's going for are NOT into the writing at all. I usually buy any comic with Kamala in it but I could not continue to support that crappy comic when there were better ones out there. Usually the more diverse comics that end up being better written are the ones written by people who have more experience in the subject matter, such as Wilson's Ms. Marvel or Coates' Black Panther. I'm not sure how popular Black Panther actually is but Ms. Marvel is still going strong last I heard. Anyway that's just what I think. I don't have as informed an insight into all this as a lot of you.
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Apr 1, 2017 01:04
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Ms. Marvel's physical sales have slipped really badly of late, haven't they?
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