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Yeah. I've been wondering if the approach from 95 is due to the nature of Japanese society. With conformity being key, does the limitless net afford the freedom to be something more authenticnor is it just simulacra? 17, being an American joint, is obsessed with individuality, so the violation of the self is much more of an issue.
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Apr 5, 2017 07:17
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FilthyImp posted:Yeah. I've been wondering if the approach from 95 is due to the nature of Japanese society. With conformity being key, does the limitless net afford the freedom to be something more authenticnor is it just simulacra? I think you're on to something there, and I like how you phrased it. I find your first point, transcending the boundaries of consciousness and escaping into the limitless net and what that means, is much more interesting than the oft-seen violation of the self. How many times have people in movies been turned into living weapons before saying at the end "No I'm not just a weapon, I'm me!" GitS '17 is a Robocop remake, and an inferior one at that. I'm way more invested in his journey than The Major's. Did this need to be an origin story? Delete the opening of her on the operating table (Why does a robot need to BREATHE? Seems like a massive vulnerability) and have The Major sure of herself and in command, THEN reveal everything she knows is a lie. That's way more interesting and fun. She might have had a personality then.
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Apr 5, 2017 07:38
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Alan_Shore posted:I dunno, I think "my consciousness was uploaded into a cyber brain, am I still me? Am I still human? What even is being human?" is more interesting than "Who am I? I don't remember, oh wait now I do." Your first example is not a character arc - which indicates that you've failed to read the five-point character arc outlined on the index card.
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Apr 5, 2017 07:55
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Your first example is not a character arc - which indicates that you've failed to read the five-point character arc outlined on the index card. Absolutely true. The second example is also not very representative of the film's character arc. It should be: "Who am I? I don't remember. Oh wait now I do. I allow you to murder this man. Now I am me."
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Apr 5, 2017 08:17
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And More posted:Absolutely true. The second example is also not very representative of the film's character arc. It should be: "Who am I? I don't remember. Oh wait now I do. I allow you to murder this man. Now I am me." Right; entire point of an outline is to add details and nuances until you have a two-hour film. People who've seen the movie know that "I am what I am" means specifically that Mira rejects both her real and virtual memories (as foreshadowed by Batou's musing about 'noise' during the interrogation scene), and instead overidentifies with her programming as an extralegal government killbot / agent of Justice. Unlike Batou, however, Major sees elements of truth in both her unsatisfactory backstories, and she builds on that. Similar cards would have been written for all the main characters. That means five points each, for at least 7-8 characters. Things become complex quickly, which is why the cards were made in the first place. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 08:42
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Alan_Shore posted:I think you're on to something there, and I like how you phrased it. I find your first point, transcending the boundaries of consciousness and escaping into the limitless net and what that means, is much more interesting than the oft-seen violation of the self. How many times have people in movies been turned into living weapons before saying at the end "No I'm not just a weapon, I'm me!" How long do you think a human brain would last in a body that wasn't breathing and, indeed, couldn't breathe?
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Apr 5, 2017 08:55
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Milky Moor posted:How long do you think a human brain would last in a body that wasn't breathing and, indeed, couldn't breathe? I don't know, the same amount of time it would last in a body without blood? It doesn't matter, it's a magic future with magic technology. There's limitless ways a fictional technology could keep a human brain alive without breathing. In fact if they wanted to go down the route of her adjusting to her cyber body, not needing to breathe would have been quite interesting.
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Apr 5, 2017 09:07
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General Dog posted:I'm sure Hollywood has learned its lesson. Going forward, instead of casting white actors in asian roles in anime adaptations, they will just not make anime adaptions. Bolded is probably the real reason as to why it's underpreformed in the US. Let's be real here. I mean sure we can talk about the "Blade Runner > GITS 95 > Matrix" cycle untill the end of time, theres no denying it's important. However, alot of people have just not heard about this before the whole whitewashing non controversy. Had the media coverage been about how this is based on the story that inspired the Matrix I think people would have been more interested. Besides they handled the supposed whitewashiing wonderfully in the film, in the sense that Scarlett Johansson is entirely a manufactured empty shell, the real major was some poor asian girl. GITS is not the ship that deserved to be torpedoed for casting a white woman as the lead. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 09:35
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:Bolded is probably the real reason as to why it's underpreformed in the US. Let's be real here. Don't discount that this movie was based on a cartoon with tits and blood and failed to deliver on both accounts.
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Apr 5, 2017 09:42
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Alan_Shore posted:I don't know, the same amount of time it would last in a body without blood? It doesn't matter, it's a magic future with magic technology. There's limitless ways a fictional technology could keep a human brain alive without breathing. In fact if they wanted to go down the route of her adjusting to her cyber body, not needing to breathe would have been quite interesting. I think he was talking about the psychological impact of that, which some few people already get to experience. There are blood oxygenation machines that people get hooked up that make it unnecessary for the lungs to do anything, and there are continuous flow blood pump heart replacements that keep people alive, albeit with a disconcerting lack of a pulse, the lack of which they clearly feel. http://www.sciencealert.com/watch-meet-the-bodybuilder-with-an-artificial-heart
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Apr 5, 2017 10:04
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Mithaldu posted:I think he was talking about the psychological impact of that, which some few people already get to experience. There are blood oxygenation machines that people get hooked up that make it unnecessary for the lungs to do anything, and there are continuous flow blood pump heart replacements that keep people alive, albeit with a disconcerting lack of a pulse, the lack of which they clearly feel. Nah, he was talking physiologically. Your link is cool! See that's something they could have had a conversation about, to expand on what it must be like to now have a robot body. Cos not breathing or having a pulse must be super weird and might make you feel less human.
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Apr 5, 2017 10:27
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Ah, yeah, missed the context a bit there. Speaking of things that actually think about the things a GitS movie should think about, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nexus_Trilogy delves into such things a good bit, and considering gits'17 while also reading those books gives me a good amount of mental dissonance.
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Apr 5, 2017 10:33
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Alan_Shore posted:Nah, he was talking physiologically. Your link is cool! See that's something they could have had a conversation about, to expand on what it must be like to now have a robot body. Cos not breathing or having a pulse must be super weird and might make you feel less human. I wasn't, actually. This is something you could infer from this being the GitS thread, a series which has dealt with the psychological impact of living in robot bodies and losing your physical connections to, and markers of, being human and what that means for the person inside the shell. edit: Like, go and watch the famous Motoko Rips Her Arms off scene. She's got like fake muscles and organic-looking components as much as she does metal. SAC demonstrates that full-body cyborgs need to eat special food. The shelling sequence in this film makes it fairly clear that Motoko is hardly a Terminator. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 11:23
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"Why does a robot need to breathe?" Asks Alan_Shore, unable to understand the difference between one of the mechanical geishas and the Major's full body prosthesis.
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Apr 5, 2017 11:29
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Milky Moor posted:"Why does a robot need to breathe?" Asks Alan_Shore, unable to understand the difference between one of the mechanical geishas and the Major's full body prosthesis. It could breathe mechanically though, there's many ways that could work that don't involve replicating regular human breathing. You really don't need that much oxygen to fuel a small piece of brain.
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Apr 5, 2017 11:31
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Milky Moor posted:I wasn't, actually. You said "How long do you think a human brain would last in a body that wasn't breathing and, indeed, couldn't breathe?" Now you're saying "I MEAN PSYCHOLOGICALLY why not INFER things" Just be clear! I just didn't see much of that in this movie. She has to take drugs, but turns out that's just to gently caress with her memories. She goes to a prostitute so she can touch someone. She does the diving but I found it very lacking compared to the original. Is there anything else that deals with living in a shell? I mean it wouldn't save this boring movie but it would add a bit of texture and depth to it. Maybe it was cut out, it used to be a lot longer I read. EDIT: Elman posted:It could breathe mechanically though, there's many ways that could work that don't involve replicating regular human breathing. You really don't need that much oxygen to fuel a small piece of brain. Exactly! Why breathe like a human if you're NOT a human? Or ARE you a human? They could address this, but they either didn't think about it or cut it out. Alan_Shore fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 11:35
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If you can't understand why you'd make a full-body prosthesis capable of closely replicating human breathing intuitively given that there is, after all, a human brain inside that had been breathing for twenty-something years then I have to wonder how you're even capable of breathing yourself.
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Apr 5, 2017 11:48
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This TNR panel with four actresses with Japanese backgrounds is the best thing that's been written about the movie. Goes to show that the Japanese aspect to it was completely off and fumbled.
ufarn fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 12:23
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Milky Moor posted:If you can't understand why you'd make a full-body prosthesis capable of closely replicating human breathing intuitively given that there is, after all, a human brain inside that had been breathing for twenty-something years then I have to wonder how you're even capable of breathing yourself. Of course but they push the "she's a weapon" angle so much and yet it has no real implications in the movie. She's just like a human in every way but better, there's no weirdness and certainly none that makes her any different from all the other weirdoes with cyber parts. I don't think she's even missing parts of her brain, it seemed complete enough when they showed it and that was never brought up. Instead of showing us why she feels off they just tell us that she does. Constantly. "You're not a shell, there's a ghost in you!"
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Apr 5, 2017 12:29
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:
Do some of you actually believe this?
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Apr 5, 2017 13:27
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I think it's undecided. While they could've cast a japanese actress, and probably should've cast a japanese voice actress (does the movie adress why ms ex-japanese speaks perfect american english?), there's no strong case that she should've been played by a japanese actress. The ethnicity of the shell has never been put clearly, and in gits her shell lies next to the caucasian one hijacked by the puppet master and is entirely identical save for eye/hair color.
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Apr 5, 2017 14:11
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In GITS 95, what's the symbolism behind the puppetmaster's female shell?
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Apr 5, 2017 14:21
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http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/ghost-shell-4-japanese-actresses-dissect-movie-whitewashing-twist-990956 Please read this perspective.
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Apr 5, 2017 14:21
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Keiko Agena: ... y'all ...
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Apr 5, 2017 14:39
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Mithaldu posted:Keiko Agena: ... y'all ... Care to elaborate ?
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Apr 5, 2017 14:46
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I'm easily amused. 
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Apr 5, 2017 14:47
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gohmak posted:http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/ghost-shell-4-japanese-actresses-dissect-movie-whitewashing-twist-990956 Are you serious, my dude? edit: "Japanese people are self-loathing", "They worship white people", "[that actress] was playing an American bitch", why wasn't the mom a tiger mom, why didn't they cast a non-Japanese Asian actress in a Japanese role (like that hasn't been a minefield historically), we want to see a new Asian-American movie star - why didn't they cast Michelle Yeoh?, 'edited for length and clarity'? They flip-flop between 'why would a Japanese company make white robots' and 'JAPANESE PEOPLE ARE ALL hosed UP AND LOVE WHITE PEOPLE' edit 2: Okay, I'll bite. What perspective is this? Beyond "four Asian-Americans think ScarJo was the Bad Choice but can't clearly elucidate why", of course. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 15:02
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Mithaldu posted:I think it's undecided. While they could've cast a japanese actress, and probably should've cast a japanese voice actress (does the movie adress why ms ex-japanese speaks perfect american english?), there's no strong case that she should've been played by a japanese actress. The ethnicity of the shell has never been put clearly, and in gits her shell lies next to the caucasian one hijacked by the puppet master and is entirely identical save for eye/hair color. Doesnt the guy at the opening dinner have the African guy listen to his daughters sing a short French song and go "in the time it took her to sing that song she learned the entire french language"
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Apr 5, 2017 15:12
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Oh yeah, fair enough. If you assume that means being able to learn how to speak a language with no accent, that'd fit.
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Apr 5, 2017 15:15
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Mithaldu posted:I think it's undecided. While they could've cast a japanese actress, and probably should've cast a japanese voice actress (does the movie adress why ms ex-japanese speaks perfect american english?), there's no strong case that she should've been played by a japanese actress. The ethnicity of the shell has never been put clearly, and in gits her shell lies next to the caucasian one hijacked by the puppet master and is entirely identical save for eye/hair color. You acknowledge there's a very strong case for casting for casting a Japanese or Asian actress, yet you're still playing the "BUT..." game. Most whitewashing happens not with adaptations in general, but long before scripts are written and casting calls are issued. The fact that there are still many clear-cut examples of whitewashing obscures the more insidious whitewashing that happens in cinema. In the case of GITS, ScarJo literally plays a robot with an asian's mind. And people are saying "the robot body was white" as if it was an unavoidable choice.
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Apr 5, 2017 15:32
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Seems that Paramount thinks the flop was due to whitewashing and poor reviews, not the IP. http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/entertainment/ghost-shell-box-office-poor-1.4052043
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Apr 5, 2017 15:33
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GRINDCORE MEGGIDO posted:In GITS 95, what's the symbolism behind the puppetmaster's female shell? Milky Moor posted:Are you serious, my dude? It's not something I would have picked up on, but it's right. quote:They flip-flop between 'why would a Japanese company make white robots' and 'JAPANESE PEOPLE ARE ALL hosed UP AND LOVE WHITE PEOPLE' And it's not a secret that Japan fetishizes the west and has a hard-on for Americana. There's a bunch of cultural baggage and beauty expectations that tend towards Western ideals. And a smart script could have mined this. "they took your life!" Could have easily been turned to "... But actually see here you chose this westernized body, all they did was train you to be an asset".
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Apr 5, 2017 15:34
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FilthyImp posted:And a smart script could have mined this. "they took your life!" Could have easily been turned to "... But actually see here you chose this westernized body, all they did was train you to be an asset". It did mine this, as evidenced by the the movie inspiring the linked conversation about Japanese beauty standards and the plausibility of a Japanese corporation choosing to make white bodies. It just didn't put it in the exposition. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 15:42
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gohmak posted:http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/ghost-shell-4-japanese-actresses-dissect-movie-whitewashing-twist-990956 There is one point I do agree on, although I think they're taking it the wrong way. quote:Okatsuka: ScarJo was probably lost. “OK, hold on. So I’m a Japanese woman. I used to be? Wait, I am. I talk to my boss [Beat Takeshi] in English even though he speaks to me in Japanese?” This sounds like something Jeremy from CinemaSins would whine about.
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Apr 5, 2017 15:49
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I'm taking the controversial stance that if you're white, you don't get to have an opinion on the whitewashing, and dismissing any opinions of Asian Americans or Japanese people is loving gross. This movie could have and should have had an Asian (American?) lead, but they had to go white (how well did that work out for you?). And they try to have their cake and eat it too, by saying she was JAPANESE ALL ALONG. Jesus her pronouncing Hideo was not good.Junior Jr. posted:This sounds like something Jeremy from CinemaSins would whine about. They're kind of right though. The world isn't fleshed out at all! If I hadn't seen the original I wouldn't even know what Section 9 does! One sentence where someone said "hey I was born English speaking but I love speaking Chinese so I do that instead" would establish so much.
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Apr 5, 2017 15:57
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Alan_Shore posted:I'm taking the controversial stance that if you're white, you don't get to have an opinion on the whitewashing, and dismissing any opinions of Asian Americans or Japanese people is loving gross. This movie could have and should have had an Asian (American?) lead, but they had to go white (how well did that work out for you?). And they try to have their cake and eat it too, by saying she was JAPANESE ALL ALONG. Jesus her pronouncing Hideo was not good This is correct not controversial. The whitesplaining in this thread is telling. gohmak fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 16:06
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Alan_Shore posted:If I hadn't seen the original I wouldn't even know what Section 9 does! Having not seen the original: it's an intelligence agency. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 16:12
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FilthyImp posted:The most relevant bits are how they completely botch the legitimacy of the interactions between Major and Mother. The director presented a dramaticised meeting, where the interviewees cite that a proper reaction would be contrite shame and reserved sadness. This is particularly funny because it's a moments you can clearly point to and go: "They didn't do their homework." Not only did they integrate whitewashing into the plot, they also hosed up doing it properly.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:16
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Going to see this later, admittedly somewhat against my will. I'm expecting it to be pretty poo poo judging from the trailers, the only thing I'm interested in is Batou's car which is a futuristic modified Lotus Esprit from the 80s...        
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Apr 5, 2017 16:23
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On one hand, an asian-american actress should've been cast as live-action Motoko, but on the other hand Scarjo was cast because she's one of the biggest Hollywood stars as of now, industry heads don't see her ethnicity, they see her fame and assets. Scarlett is a USP for this movie to make any money in home video and the box office. Recently, we're seeing a lot of popular movie stars who are specifically white and black, so there aren't many asians to look up to, the only new ones I can recall are Karen Fukuhara from Suicide Squad, and Tao Okamoto and Rila Fukushima from The Wolverine. But they haven't yet reached the same amount of fame as Scarlett Johansson. So from the looks of things, either they build up a huge reputation so that Hollywood starts really noticing them and possibly show potential for more asian stars, or some executive decides to cast one of them to play an asian lead character for an upcoming film in the future. Olympic Mathlete posted:Going to see this later, admittedly somewhat against my will. I'm expecting it to be pretty poo poo judging from the trailers, the only thing I'm interested in is Batou's car which is a futuristic modified Lotus Esprit from the 80s... This bothered me a little, because I kept thinking that's supposed to be some kitbashed Delorean.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:34
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