gohmak posted:All anime characters are Japanese unless stated otherwise. They will explicitly say "this character is from _______" and have some sort of art style to differenciate them from the other Japanese cast. But that's not what you said. "When they are styled as a specific ethnicity they are that specific ethnicity." 7c Nickel posted:You can, but those characteristics are culture bound and just because you think she doesn't look asian enough doesn't mean that you're right in interpreting the markers correctly. Oh. If you put robot eyes on that guy and lightened his hair, he'd look just like Batou. What does that mean?
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Apr 6, 2017 04:48
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gohmak posted:All anime characters are Japanese unless stated otherwise. They will explicitly say "this character is from _______" and have some sort of art style to differenciate them from the other Japanese cast. There's an amendment to that. I once had the privilege of being in a Q&A with Masami Obari, which, due to convention weirdness, became a lot more intimate than usual, leading to twenty people huddled around him as he spoke of anecdotes about the industry. One of the things I still remember, other than he did the transformation animation for Convoy, i.e. Optimus Prime, in the G1 Transformers, is that they added dark skin to the hero of Virus Buster Serge to make it more marketable overseas. Apparently, in the industry and Japanese culture, dark skin is "foreign" or "exotic".
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Apr 6, 2017 04:53
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Milky Moor posted:If you put robot eyes on that guy and lightened his hair, he'd look just like Batou. What does that mean? That you may be functionally blind. But still yes, Bato is much more racially ambiguous than anyone else in the cast. Sometimes his name is romanized as french, Bateau. Shirow Masamune has stated that he's styled after a minotaur. 7c Nickel fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 04:56
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Milky Moor posted:But that's not what you said. Yeah what I said. They are Japanese unless made clear they are not. What's hard about this?
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Apr 6, 2017 04:57
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Check his rap sheet, guys. I have another, very minor aesthetic gripe with the movie... Batou's eyes and the Major's tactical visor. I really like that in most versions, they look like a flat metal or plastic casing. Like they're so high tech they don't have external lenses. Light isn't passing through them. The Major's tactical visor looks more like an Oculus Rift than some kind of night vision. The 2017 movie put visible lenses in both of these things. I don't actually think they looked bad, or anything, but I missed the aesthetic I was used to.
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Apr 6, 2017 05:02
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gohmak posted:Yeah what I said. They are Japanese unless made clear they are not. What's hard about this? Because "styling someone" is not the same as "explicitly stating". This is not a complex idea. I'm not the one with problems of reading comprehension. 7c Nickel posted:But still yes, Bato is much more racially ambiguous than anyone else in the cast. How can he be racially ambiguous if his appearance doesn't correlate to anything except character traits, as you outlined with Paz? Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 05:12
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Milky Moor posted:Because "styling someone" is not the same as "explicitly stating". This is not a complex idea. Mostly because he has extremely pale hair, not blonde mind you, and because the giant nose of a bull head has some overlap with the westerners all have giant noses thing. Racial markers exist, but they're not the same racial markers you use because you didn't grow up in Japan. You're missing the meaning of some of them and misinterpreting others.
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Apr 6, 2017 05:21
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Snak posted:Check his rap sheet, guys. Some of the renditions have multiple indentions in the visor where it's believed those are small micro cameras. They could also be mistaken as rivets as well.  I about lost my poo poo when I saw these, because of how close they are to that concept.  It's a visor by a company called eSight that provides legal blind people the ability to see clearly again.
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Apr 6, 2017 05:22
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Young Freud posted:Some of the renditions have multiple indentions in the visor where it's believed those are small micro cameras. They could also be mistaken as rivets as well. Yeah, you're not wrong, those could be micro-cameras. But it still doesn't look like or parse as a camera or googles when you see it. In the 2017, the visor looks like a camera and the Batou's eyes have mechanical lenses.
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Apr 6, 2017 05:25
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7c Nickel posted:Mostly because he has extremely pale hair, not blonde mind you, and because the giant nose of a bull head has some overlap with the westerners all have giant noses thing. Racial markers exist, but they're not the same racial markers you use because you didn't grow up in Japan. You're missing the meaning of some of them and misinterpreting others. Snak is right. We are feeding a troll
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Apr 6, 2017 05:37
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gohmak posted:Snak is right. We are feeding a troll I'm just quoting your own contradictory arguments back at you to try and figure out how this whole thing works. It's not my fault if you can't make a coherent argument that doesn't refute itself like some kind of hosed-up ouroboros. It's also not my fault that either argument you choose to make (explicit VS implicit) doesn't lead back to your key point, that the Major is obviously Asian based solely on her physical appearance that matches almost 1:1 with a figure you called Caucasian (the .gif of the Puppet Master, remember?), therefore, "whitewashing" via ScarJo.  Sort of like how 7c Nickel said I was "blind" to compare Batou with the American guy based on physical similarities and then edited in the rest of that stuff to say, actually, no, there are physical similarities that could be considered, by a viewer, to be racial markers. Which is what I've been saying all along. This is not a controversial idea. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 05:50
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Neo Rasa posted:It makes more sense knowing the backstory of the comic setting. In every comic/anime continuity all Ghost in the Shell stuff takes place in a fictional version of Niihama which is (in some English localizations this is changed to a generic Port City, or New Port City, etc. in some localized media) an actual city in Japan, but is currently a relatively old mining city (I think it has a population of like 100,000 people). In Ghost in the Shell it's the "big city" because due to the manga's backstory the entire planet's geopolitical structure is completely different from anything today. Like Tokyo effectively doesn't exist anymore, huge parts of the world are radioactive wasteland, the land that is the US in the real world is three totally separate nations in Ghost in the Shell. The earth in the Ghost in the Shell franchise is basically a different planet in terms of where we now associate different countries and super powers to be. Huh. I thought I read somewhere that the city wasn't named in the Japanese dialogue of the 95 film, but it does seem like you are right and it does take place in Japan. I never thought that it was literally set in Hong Kong, I just thought it was supposed to be an ambiguous future city and they looked at Hong Kong for inspiration. Thanks. And this is about 40 pages too late, but I noticed earlier in the thread, people were discussing the improbability of Japan being such a world power. I saw a few mentions of this, but just to reiterate... The setting of Ghost in the Shell takes place after "Nuclear World War 3 and non-nuclear World War 4" And part of background includes something called "The Japanese Miracle", which is radiation scrubbing technology that was developed in Japan and basically saved the entire world by cleaning up a lot of the mess of Nuclear World War 3. This gave them a huge amount of economic and political leverage and secured their position as a world power.
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Apr 6, 2017 06:05
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Laugh about the things SMG says, but don't believe any of them, they are at best distorted truth.Milky Moor posted:you can't make a coherent argument
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Apr 6, 2017 06:19
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The best part about this movie was the fact that Cutter looked and talked a lot like Paul Ryan. Coincidentally, they were both owned really hard.
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Apr 6, 2017 06:27
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Why do you care so much about race, guys we are all one
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Apr 6, 2017 06:43
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Mithaldu posted:Yep, that's my gripe too. All the explanations for what's happening are very tenuous or self-referential. ("What is white-washing?" - "Whatever it is this movie does.") Meanwhile nobody can even be bothered to acknowledge the whitewashing that happened to the other cast and location. It only matters if it's the main character, apparently, so the peg is jammed into that hole come heaven or high water. She's the main character. She has most of the screen time, the story is about HER and maybe more importantly she's on all the posters and in all the ads. No poo poo people don't care so much about the whitewashing of the ancillary characters! I don't know why some people are hung up on the anime and whatnot. In the original Motoko is Japanese. She has a Japanese name. It takes place IN Japan. Why are you talking about how they're drawn? Like the JAPANESE animators sat around and said "OK we better make sure that our main characters look Japanese. It doesn't matter that they're speaking Japanese and have Japanese names and live in Japan, if they don't have squinty eyes foreigners might get confused!" They took a Japanese woman and made her an American white woman. Not only that, she USED to be Japanese. If the movie was set in America then fair enough, but it's set in Asia (I think? Do they even say where?). If Hanka was an American company then making the shell white makes sense too, BUT I don't know if they are American (Hanka doesn't sound American). This could and should have been clarified, then we could ignore all this.
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Apr 6, 2017 07:03
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someone post that video of japanese people reacting with joy to the news that Scarlett would be playing the Major. I feel like it's a nice contrast to all the discussion that is being had by exclusively white dudes on the internet about whitewashing
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Apr 6, 2017 07:09
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This version of the movie takes place in Hong Kong evidenced by the skyline featuring actual buildings located in Hong Kong in a long shot and the vertical graveyard which has featured in a whole bunch of HK movies over the years.
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Apr 6, 2017 07:16
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Alan_Shore posted:It takes place IN Japan. Hong Kong, actually.
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Apr 6, 2017 07:17
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Milky Moor posted:Hong Kong, actually. The anime? No it doesn't. We've been over this! Olympic Mathlete posted:This version of the movie takes place in Hong Kong evidenced by the skyline featuring actual buildings located in Hong Kong in a long shot and the vertical graveyard which has featured in a whole bunch of HK movies over the years. It doesn't say that. I assume they just based it on HK because the original did and they followed the aesthetics. But if it IS HK does that make more sense that she's white now? Zzulu posted:someone post that video of japanese people reacting with joy to the news that Scarlett would be playing the Major. I feel like it's a nice contrast to all the discussion that is being had by exclusively white dudes on the internet about whitewashing There was already a video posted of Asian Americans talking negatively about the film. But yes, like I said before, white people's views are nowhere near as important as Asian Americans, who have no representation in Hollywood at all, even when you have a film that would be PERFECT for an Asian American lead. Nope gotta give it to whitey lol
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Apr 6, 2017 07:38
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Zzulu posted:someone post that video of japanese people reacting with joy to the news that Scarlett would be playing the Major. I feel like it's a nice contrast to all the discussion that is being had by exclusively white dudes on the internet about whitewashing Here's a post I made ages ago in this thread. It's almost like we're rehashing the same arguments over and over with idiots who don't know how to read. 7c Nickel posted:The issue isn't about Japanese people in Japan. It's about asian people in America. No one gives a poo poo about the casting of the live action Attack on Titan because Japan is 98% Japanese and the other 2% are mostly from other asian nations.
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Apr 6, 2017 07:39
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Alan_Shore posted:The anime? No it doesn't. We've been over this! It's weird that everyone is so disingenuous today! Here is what you said, Alan_Shore: "I don't know why some people are hung up on the anime and whatnot. In the original (emphasis mine) Motoko is Japanese. She has a Japanese name. It takes place IN Japan." The original - the 1995 movie - was set in Hong Kong.
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Apr 6, 2017 07:48
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I read the last couple of pages because I wanted to check what people thought about the movie. Now I'm just exhausted and I still have no answer.
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Apr 6, 2017 07:55
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7c Nickel posted:Here's a post I made ages ago in this thread. It's almost like we're rehashing the same arguments over and over with idiots who don't know how to read. Hm, well there are no big asian actresses that people want to pay to see so unfortunately cant have this
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Apr 6, 2017 08:00
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Milky Moor posted:It's weird that everyone is so disingenuous today! Here, let me quote from Wikipedia because you are the worst: "Major Motoko Kusanagi is an assault-team leader for the Public Security Section 9 of "New Port City" in Japan." Are you done? 7c Nickel posted:Here's a post I made ages ago in this thread. It's almost like we're rehashing the same arguments over and over with idiots who don't know how to read. Yes, thank you! Zzulu posted:Hm, well there are no big asian actresses that people want to pay to see so unfortunately cant have this People didn't pay to see Scarlett either, so...? Also how do you know people won't pay to see them? Hm
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Apr 6, 2017 08:13
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Alan_Shore posted:It doesn't say that. I assume they just based it on HK because the original did and they followed the aesthetics. But if it IS HK does that make more sense that she's white now? In this new movie it's Hong Kong because there are several buildings in the skyline in the bay shot which exist in HK today. The vast majority of the movie was created in CGI anyway so why leave those particular building in if it's not HK? It has this iconic building in the movie, it's the Bank of China Tower in Hong Kong. 
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Apr 6, 2017 08:13
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Olympic Mathlete posted:In this new movie it's Hong Kong because there are several buildings in the skyline in the bay shot which exist in HK today. The vast majority of the movie was created in CGI anyway so why leave those particular building in if it's not HK? I know, I live in HK  I'm just saying it could be like the original where the city is obviously based on HK because it looks cool but in the film's fictional world it's a made-up city.
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Apr 6, 2017 08:17
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Alan_Shore posted:Here, let me quote from Wikipedia because you are the worst: I can also quote Wikipedia, friend. "Oshii chose to use the real streets of Hong Kong as his model.[9] He also said that Hong Kong was the perfect subject and theme for the film with its countless signs and the cacophony of sounds.[6] The film's mecha designer Takeuchi Atsushi noted that while the film does not have a chosen setting, it is obviously based on Hong Kong because the city represented the theme of the film, the old and the new which exist in a strange relationship in an age of an information deluge." It is not a real place. It is a place built on Hong Kong where certain shots can go 1:1 to landmarks and locations. Japan is never mentioned in the script. 'Newport City' does not appear on any maps of Japan. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 08:34
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Alan_Shore posted:People didn't pay to see Scarlett either, so...? Also how do you know people won't pay to see them? Hm Well it's not like the story of black women at Nasa made any money... ohh wait. Well it's not like that horror movie about a black guy trapped in a town of racist body stealers made any money... ohh wait. Well it's not like that drama about a gay black guy made any money... ohh wait. Well it's not like a movie based on Polynesian mythology made any money etc. etc.
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Apr 6, 2017 08:41
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Niihama/Newport City are in Japan, even if it does look like Hong Kong stylistically. Why the hell would Section 9, a Japanese organization and public security team created by the Japanese government, be stationed in Hong Kong?
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Apr 6, 2017 08:42
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^^ Nothing in the film calls them Japanese, at least in the script I'm looking at. There is, however, a Newport City in the Philippines. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 08:43
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Vanderdeath posted:Niihama/Newport City are in Japan, even if it does look like Hong Kong stylistically. Why the hell would Section 9, a Japanese organization and public security team created by the Japanese government, be stationed in Hong Kong? why would a national security organisation be intruding into other countries' sovereign territories, in a dystopian sci-fi thriller? why, that's just nonsense. [looks outside] wait
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Apr 6, 2017 08:53
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Vanderdeath posted:Niihama/Newport City are in Japan, even if it does look like Hong Kong stylistically. Why the hell would Section 9, a Japanese organization and public security team created by the Japanese government, be stationed in Hong Kong? Mamoru Oshii has had a love affair with Hong Kong ever since he filmed Stray Dog of his Kerebos series there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlVByy_wj6U (this is not really what I wanted to post, but it's close enough)
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Apr 6, 2017 08:56
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^ Yeah, I really like the Kerberos Saga and even though the city in it looks decided not Japanese, it most certainly takes place in Japan.ungulateman posted:why would a national security organisation be intruding into other countries' sovereign territories, in a dystopian sci-fi thriller? why, that's just nonsense. [looks outside] wait They're not an army, they're literally a branch of the Japanese Ministry of Home Affairs in every version and only deal with counter-terrorist and poo poo harming Japan. Trying to say that Ghost in the Shell doesn't take place in Japan is extraordinarily  Neo-Tokyo in Akira was heavily inspired by Western metropolises but that doesn't mean it takes place outside of Japan. Vanderdeath fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 09:07
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Milky Moor posted:I can also quote Wikipedia, friend. Holy poo poo WHAT. It's NOT a real place. Congratulations! Obviously! It's FICTIONAL. A FICTIONAL city set in a FICTIONAL Japan in a FICTIONAL future. It is BASED on Hong Kong. It is not SET in Hong Kong. It is NOT SET in Hong Kong. I'm glad we've cleared that up. Again.
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Apr 6, 2017 09:10
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Alan_Shore posted:Holy poo poo WHAT. How do you know it is set in a Japan, fictional or otherwise? Which part of the text supports this assumption? When you look at the city on screen in GitS 95, do you see a city in Japan, or do you see Hong Kong? What matters more, the fictional biography of a fictional character, or the "usage of the real streets of Hong Kong", the city which is the "perfect subject and theme", in a film that "does not have a chosen setting" and is "obviously based on". Your usage of capital letters cannot intimidate me. I do not feel pity, remorse or fear. I only read texts. And I will not stop, ever.
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Apr 6, 2017 09:15
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Alan_Shore posted:
Mostly just basing this on the fact that hollywood is a machine of greed above all and they don't see much profit in focusing ong asian actors yet because their cold hard calculated demographics research says it aint profitable yet It's a shame but that's why we see most women above a certain age fizzle out as well
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Apr 6, 2017 09:22
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Olympic Mathlete posted:The vast majority of the movie was created in CGI anyway so why leave those particular building in if it's not HK? quote:It has this iconic building in the movie, it's the Bank of China Tower in Hong Kong.
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Apr 6, 2017 09:39
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Zzulu posted:Mostly just basing this on the fact that hollywood is a machine of greed above all and they don't see much profit in focusing ong asian actors yet because their cold hard calculated demographics research says it aint profitable yet Except this has been proven wrong again and again. The actual research show that diverse movies make more money. The reason that poo poo doesn't change is because of entrenched racism, not greed.
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Apr 6, 2017 10:25
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Shageletic posted:I in turn find it weird that you wouldn't think Japanese Americans that actually have to navigate the hosed exoticizing and stereotyping and depriving of economic opportunities that happens to them due to living here wouldn't have more weight accorded to their views regarding an American film than people that live in another country. I was talking about their views on society and politics in the modern nation-state of Japan, not their views on this film per se. IMO Japanese-American opinions regarding that have about as much weight as do Irish-American opinions on The Troubles, especially when they appear to play directly into sensationalist, orientalist, and racist caricatures of the modern nation-state of Japan icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 10:42
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