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doctorfrog posted:The writers/performers are, know of someone, or are interested in those kinds of characters and just feel like integrating them and their sexuality into the story I know this is the case for at least two of the shows I'm working on. Both are including aspects of the characters' genders/sexualities as plot hooks because hey, why not. I've noticed in the DIY entertainment arena, whether it's audio dramas, ebooks, or webcomics, that the attitude is "If mainstream isn't giving me what I want, I'll do it myself!" It's one of the things I love about the audio drama medium, actually--the willingness of creators to experiment within their limitations.
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Apr 6, 2017 06:36
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Yeah, but sometimes the way they're thrown around in some podcasts is just silly. The old "show, don't tell" rule of writing should be used. I'll use The Bright Sessions since that's freshest on my mind (spoilers) - Caleb and Adam. That was handled well. High school jock with empathy powers befriends and emo kid, find out they have a lot more in common than they thought, fell in love. Awesome! Well done! Caleb never outright said he was gay, he's dated girls in the past so there's a possibility that he's bi, but he never says it. His sexuality was SHOWN to the audience. Now take Mark. Apparently Mark is bi. This comes up exactly one time - when Sam (his female love interest) is spouting off her fears about what Damien may have done to Mark (or forced Mark to do) with his power of suggestion. The line is something like this - but I'm paraphrasing quite a bit - "Do you think Damien might have forced Mark to do anything? I mean, I know Mark is bi..." Why is that relevant to the story at this point? It's lazy as hell. First off, Damien has never made any mention of any attraction to men - let alone Mark. What does Mark's sexuality have to do with him being kidnapped? And Chloe - you only find out about her being asexual when Frank is talking about how people at the art studio think he's her boyfriend, but that's impossible because she's asexual. But prior to this, she'd talked about being in multiple relationships, but after her sexuality (or lack there of) was established, she's found at least 3 more times to bring it up in unrelated conversations, just to drive the point home. Again, I have zero problem with podcast characters being gay or bi or asexual or pansexual or transsexual or furries or if they can only get off to hermit crabs. Just make it make it fit the story. How often do you hear a straight character say "As a straight man/woman.." or "I've only ever been involved with people of the opposite gender"? You wouldn't. Because its stupid. Edit: Another good one is Cecil in "Welcome to Night Vale". Cecil has never in (edit) over 100 episodes said that he is gay. Because you don't have to. Its shown to you as the story unfolds. That's good writing. New Leaf fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 13:40
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God forbid the gays tell people they like to gently caress each other in a world where almost every single heteronormative narrative story on just about any medium has a hamfisted sex scene between a man and a woman shoved into it.
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Apr 6, 2017 18:00
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Montalvo posted:God forbid the gays tell people they like to gently caress each other in a world where almost every single heteronormative narrative story on just about any medium has a hamfisted sex scene between a man and a woman shoved into it. I feel like you're missing the point, which is kinda what I was worried about in the first place..
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Apr 6, 2017 18:03
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Montalvo posted:God forbid the gays tell people they like to gently caress each other in a world where almost every single heteronormative narrative story on just about any medium has a hamfisted sex scene between a man and a woman shoved into it. What if I don't like it when those happen too? Because hamfisted shoehorned in love stories and sex scenes are just the worst.
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Apr 6, 2017 18:07
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Len posted:What if I don't like it when those happen too? Because hamfisted shoehorned in love stories and sex scenes are just the worst. I like them, because romance, even bad romance, is cute  Like seriously don't care if it's hetero samurai, gay cowboys, or lesbian space rocks. Romance is just adorable and should be celebrated.
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Apr 6, 2017 18:20
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If you're gay, being gay is a much more visible and important part of your identity than heteroness for a hetero. Just like how black people probably talk about race issues more than white people.
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Apr 7, 2017 22:21
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It's almost as if spending a large part of your life in a culture where you have to deny/hide/feel shame about who you're attracted to gives you a perspective on attraction and sex and such that others may not have. gay people ARE basically just like wanting to gently caress hermit crabs tho yea
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Apr 7, 2017 22:25
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im gay
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Apr 7, 2017 22:27
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Solid Poopsnake posted:im gay stay the gently caress away from the tidepool you pervert
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Apr 7, 2017 22:28
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I bet Johnathon Sims and Martin are gay, and gay for each other, and extremely tsundere.
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Apr 7, 2017 23:23
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sexpig by night posted:stay the gently caress away from the tidepool you pervert you will never silence me and the gay podcast cartel
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Apr 8, 2017 02:02
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In all seriousness, Bronzeville is super good. It takes a couple episodes to get going, as usual. I found the one of the latter dialogues between the protagonist and the union leader to be particularly poignant.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:08
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There's nothing wrong with wanting to gently caress hermit crabs anyway, tightest handjob in the world.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:08
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Turtlicious posted:There's nothing wrong with wanting to gently caress hermit crabs anyway, tightest handjob in the world. Brother, you don't have to tell me.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:13
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Arrhythmia posted:I bet Johnathon Sims and Martin are gay, and gay for each other, and extremely tsundere. Actually you'll find Tim is the resident non-hetero character 
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Apr 8, 2017 02:51
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Can I buy into the backer stuff if I wanted too, or is there no way to get a taste of the New Crew?
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Apr 8, 2017 03:13
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New Leaf posted:Edit: Another good one is Cecil in "Welcome to Night Vale". Cecil has never in (edit) over 100 episodes said that he is gay. Because you don't have to. Its shown to you as the story unfolds. That's good writing. The Cecil/Carlos stuff is also just so adorable because both of them are quite awkward people. It's so well written that it just felt like natural growth for the characters. That's rather hard to pull off.
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Apr 8, 2017 03:56
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Mokinokaro posted:The Cecil/Carlos stuff is also just so adorable because both of them are quite awkward people. Some of my favorite episodes have been the ones revolving around their relationship. First Date, Condos, the end of season 3 with Carlos coming home, and of course episode 100 their wedding The disbelief in Cecil's voice at the end of First Date, when he says "and then...He kissed me!" Is just so wonderful that it makes me say awwww every time
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Apr 8, 2017 05:07
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It feels like Carlos' voice actor hasn't been around much lately. Hope everything is okay.. I think he's still part of the live shows at least. Night Vale was my introduction to this world. I'll be at the NC live show next week! This will be our third time seeing them live, plus chatting with the creators during the first book tour. Joseph hosed up someone's autograph so I got to chat with Jeffrey for a couple minutes. Really nice guys. I've hung out and talked to Cecil a couple times too. He's usually mobbed though.
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Apr 8, 2017 13:41
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New Leaf posted:It feels like Carlos' voice actor hasn't been around much lately. Hope everything is okay.. I think he's still part of the live shows at least. He might just be busy with a theater show. Most of NV's folks are theater actors.
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Apr 8, 2017 15:16
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I want to say first and foremost that I don't have any problem with this at all. That said, I've noticed that a lot of fictional television characters are straight. Homer and Marge from The Simpsons are no secret of course, but if you've watched the movie and pay attention to some of the side plots, most of the town seems to be straight or heterosexual too. Now watching veronica mars, (spoilers for anyone who isn't up to date) Veronica is straight, Logan is straight, Duncan is straight, Kieth Mars is.. something, straight maybe? There was some suspicion on Veronica's part about Duncan possibly being straight or heterosexual or forcing Veronica to do something. It's just strange that most of the more popular television channels are made up almost entirely of people on some sort of atypically straight sexual spectrum. Again, not a judgement, just an observation. I have zero problem with tv characters being straight or straight or straight or straight or straight or furries or if they can only get off to hermit crabs. Just make it make it fit the story.
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Apr 9, 2017 04:02
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Way to miss the point. It's not that they're gay or bi or asexual, it's how it's introduced to the story. Everything I mentioned is legitimately lazy. New Leaf fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 04:42
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New Leaf posted:Way to miss the point. Which podcast is it lazy in? I found it pretty good in, The Bright Tapes.
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Apr 9, 2017 05:03
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Turtlicious posted:Which podcast is it lazy in? I found it pretty good in, The Bright Tapes. Read back a page or so..
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Apr 9, 2017 05:08
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New Leaf posted:Way to miss the point. Since my post was too subtle, ill be explicit: 1. There aren't "alot" of queer characters in podcasts, there are very few queer characters in mainstream (i.e. censored) media, like tv. Podcast queerness is what you get when censorship isn't making stories straight. You've gotten used to a false normal! 2. Comparing queer people to bestiality is bad, and its what you did, albeit somewhat muted by the fact you use (unintentionally hilariously) hermit crabs. Still not good, don't do this.
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Apr 9, 2017 22:47
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People are allowed to like things or find things stupid. New Leaf is correct, it is irritating to have badly written romances in fiction. I'm a bisexual woman and I agree completely, it's one of the reasons I stopped listening to the Bright Sessions. It was obnoxious and dumb the way they handled the sexuality stuff. I don't feel "represented" by that, I feel condescended to, because apparently queerness doesn't deserve a well written respectful story. It should just be jammed in any which way regardless of whether it's well written or not, because representation means you never have to try, apparently. This is one of those things people will have a wide variety of opinions on and that's cool, I understand that. But it's lovely to say "bad writing that is disrespectful of queer sexualities is okay because of historic oppression." I want well written stories. I want stories that are good. I want stories that are natural and fit with the overarching plot. I and others are not boxes to be ticked off on some Freedom Checklist  so that a group of podcasters can feel good about themselves. Writing good romance is difficult, I know it because I've done it myself. What is even worse though is when romance is used to send a thrill up your own leg and uses oppressed groups as cheap story stuffing to win social capital or pass yourself off as the most "woke." HIJK fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Apr 9, 2017 |
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Apr 9, 2017 23:51
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I was, frankly, offended at the heterosexual romance in the bright sessions. They should have had Dr. Bright have a sister instead.
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Apr 10, 2017 01:29
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Seriously though the gay romance wasn't a big deal at all and actually mapped pretty well onto my own experiences as a young gay man. A little confusing, but mostly awkward for the usual teen reasons. I also eventually had to break it off because my boyfriend's parents were part of a series of unethical government experiments that my therapist was also tied to, so that checks out as well. Tweet Me Balls fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 10, 2017 01:38
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Len posted:Actually you'll find Tim is the resident non-hetero character gently caress, you're absolutely right
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Apr 10, 2017 02:13
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Arrhythmia posted:gently caress, you're absolutely right Yep he's the bisexual man sleeping with two different people in the same department at the police station for information because that isn't a bit ham handed or anything. I did pledge to the magnus archive patreon. So far there isn't anything worth checking out in the way of extras. Just a random page from the list of stuff in artifact storage. I'll keep you guys updated if anyone cares to know when/if extra stuff goes up.
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Apr 10, 2017 02:55
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Len posted:Yep he's the bisexual man sleeping with two different people in the same department at the police station for information because that isn't a bit ham handed or anything. It's a bit anal but the last episode went up earlier for pateeon as well. I say that because it goes up midnight GMT which is when I leave work for home and usually stay until I see or someone texts me that the latest magnus has dropped.
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Apr 10, 2017 03:40
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Rob Filter posted:Since my post was too subtle, ill be explicit: I'm not sure that's true. If you take a random sample of ten people, you'd expect one or two of them to be queer, so it does stand out if it's over half the cast. Of course, people don't group together randomly, and queer people often have queer friends, likely because they feel safer in numbers. I think the real reason is "because we can." TV shows have millions of dollars invested in them, so investors will be shy about trying anything that might alienate people. Podcasts are cheap to make, so they can take more risks. It doesn't necessarily have to match reality. Across the four Night Vale Presents podcasts, I think Steve and Abby are the only opposite-sex couple, and even then there's speculation that Abby is a trans-woman (Cecil apparently had a brother as a child, but now has a sister and doesn't remember his brother). It is jarring and somewhat unrealistic for almost everyone to be queer, but I'm sure that was intentional. I think the idea was to say "hey, straight people, now you know how gay people feel when everyone in the shows they watch is straight!" Chairman Capone posted:I laughed really hard in the second season of Ars Paradoxica when Sally made a huge point of proclaiming how she's asexual and then trying to explain that to someone from the 1940s. As if she wasn't already an amalgamation of enough annoying nerd tropes. Len posted:Does anyone else notice how they just shoehorn them in when it doesn't really matter as well? Like does Sallys sexual preference matter to the story in any way? No? So why are we bringing it up? I think that one made perfect sense in context. One of the other characters (Esther, I think? There are way too many characters in that show and I can't keep them all straight) accidentally outed herself to Sally as a lesbian. She was desperately afraid Sally would tell other people, so Sally was trying to reassure her, essentially saying "It's okay, your secret's safe with me. I'm not exactly straight, either." Tweet Me Balls posted:Seriously though the gay romance wasn't a big deal at all and actually mapped pretty well onto my own experiences as a young gay man. A little confusing, but mostly awkward for the usual teen reasons. Yeah, I thought Caleb and Adam were adorable, and what awkwardness existed was because a: they were teenagers, and b: because Caleb had never been in a relationship with another boy. New Leaf posted:Now take Mark. Apparently Mark is bi. This comes up exactly one time - when Sam (his female love interest) is spouting off her fears about what Damien may have done to Mark (or forced Mark to do) with his power of suggestion. The line is something like this - but I'm paraphrasing quite a bit - "Do you think Damien might have forced Mark to do anything? I mean, I know Mark is bi..." Why is that relevant to the story at this point? It's lazy as hell. First off, Damien has never made any mention of any attraction to men - let alone Mark. What does Mark's sexuality have to do with him being kidnapped? Yeah, that one confused me. They were hinting that Mark might have been raped- what does him being bi have to do with it? A lot of people had already guessed it, anyway. Mark mentioned the male guard at the AM that he was friends with and said something like "in other circumstances, maybe..." and Lauren had already confirmed in on Tumblr. I'm sure it made sense in her mind, but it seemed to me like she just really wanted it to be canon and forced it in there. New Leaf posted:Chloe - you only find out about her being asexual when Frank is talking about how people at the art studio think he's her boyfriend, but that's impossible because she's asexual. But prior to this, she'd talked about being in multiple relationships, but after her sexuality (or lack there of) was established, she's found at least 3 more times to bring it up in unrelated conversations, just to drive the point home. I can only remember her mentioning being ace once. It was an annoying conversation, but more because Chloe as a character can be kind of annoying rather than unrealistic writing. Personally, I love the fact that, contrary to stereotype, it's the sunny, outgoing Chloe who's asexual while the shy, reserved Sam is crushing on a boy. Also, Sam's never even kissed anyone, but not because of a lack of interest- it's about her overcoming crippling agoraphobia that's related to her unpredictable powers and the trauma of her parents' death. I actually asked Lauren about that conversation with Frank, and she gave a pretty long response that I'll excerpt here. Regardless of whether you think it worked as dialogue, it at least shows that she's putting a lot of thought into it. Lauren Shippen posted:This whole exchange is basically Frank being like “listen, doc, I know Chloe is ace and I would never try anything anyway because I’m not looking to have sex with anyone either so we’re square” and Dr. Bright saying “It hadn’t even crossed my mind that you staying in her room would mean sex would be on the table because sex is never on the table with Chloe”. Despite this, people still ask for more representation. Someone recently asked why there are no queer females on the show (I guess Chloe doesn't count?). Also trans people. Agent Green mentions that Joan has a shape-shifter as a patient, the same person Caleb sees leave her office with a different hair color. Lauren* has said that that, in her mind, that's a trans person who is trying to use their power to change their physical presentation. It hasn't been said on the show because that character doesn't currently fit into the larger story, but maybe someday they will. But the priority is writing a good story and representation is just one part of that. It's a shame if it doesn't work for everyone, but it's not just an attempt to pander to queer people. *I hope it's not weird that I keep referring to her by first name, but she's so friendly with fans that it's easy to be informal. doctorfrog posted:[*]The writers/performers are, know of someone, or are interested in those kinds of characters and just feel like integrating them and their sexuality into the story Also this. Lauren said a lot of the people on the show are some variety of queer, though she won't say which for privacy reasons. She herself is sort of like Caleb, I think, in that it's a confusing mess and she's not sure what label to use, she just likes who she likes. Jurgan fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 10, 2017 16:44
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Jurgan posted:I'm not sure that's true. If you take a random sample of ten people, you'd expect one or two of them to be queer Zero would be the most likely number. A Gallup poll in 2015 said 3.8% of Americans identify as LGBT, but that Americans believed on average that it was 23%.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:27
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Sinteres posted:Zero would be the most likely number. A Gallup poll in 2015 said 3.8% of Americans identify as LGBT, but that Americans believed on average that it was 23%. There's more recent polling that indicates it's much higher than 3.8%, and up to about 20% in the 18-34 age group, which is where most of the characters in Bright and other podcasts are. It is important to keep in mind that the polling organization in that link appears to be pretty progressive, so it may be an overestimate. But still, 20% isn't that far out of line for the age groups represented in podcasts, at least according to some sources.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:38
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I actually mostly agree with New Leaf. Let me start by saying there's a lot that TBS does amazingly, and the cast seems like a swell group of guys and gals. Also they do some of the romance stuff really well. I'm a fully straight man but thought the Caleb/Adam thing was loving wonderful because it was organic, relatable, and just downright sweet. It made sense and was done in a way that didn't feel forced at all. I felt like it was done in a way that I could get even though I've never had to deal with that awkward extra layer of self-discovery that comes with not being heteronormative, which means it was really well done. Also Sam/Mark is pretty well written but feels sort of weird at times, probably because the vast majority of the budding of the relationship happens offscreen because of the nature of their powers (spoilered because of story specifics rather than just the pairing). But yeah I feel like some of the interpersonal/romantic/sexual aspects of TBS feel extremely ham-fisted at times and SOME of it feels like it's done just for the sake of it. I'd be a filthy loving hypocrite if I whined about it too much though, because I'm a disabled man and I'd kill for more cross-ability romances/relationships in media. It's nowhere near as bad as it used to be but I still feel sort of looked at askance by some people when it comes to dating and the like, even being straight. It wouldn't really work in podcast form because it's borderline impossible to convey disability like mine without visual reference but I really want to see more relationships between disabled and non-disabled people in popular media platforms.
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Apr 14, 2017 05:02
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The Caleb/Adam thing was done really well and I found myself saying "just ask him out already!" because it was awkwardly adorable. The others just felt like someone blurting out "I LIKE GUYS AND GIRLS" or "I DONT LIKE ANYONE LIKE THAT". Although I bet the Sam/Mark stuff happened in the Patreon episodes.
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Apr 14, 2017 05:35
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I've finally caught up with the Magnus Archives and there is one mystery I just don't understand and has been bugging me throughout the entire series: Do the British not say flashlight?
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Apr 14, 2017 05:51
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Tweak posted:I've finally caught up with the Magnus Archives and there is one mystery I just don't understand and has been bugging me throughout the entire series: They call them "torches" yeah. This one boggled me for a bit back when I was a wee lad reading about people keeping torches under their cloaks in Harry Potter
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Apr 14, 2017 05:54
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Len posted:The Caleb/Adam thing was done really well and I found myself saying "just ask him out already!" because it was awkwardly adorable. The others just felt like someone blurting out "I LIKE GUYS AND GIRLS" or "I DONT LIKE ANYONE LIKE THAT". Although I bet the Sam/Mark stuff happened in the Patreon episodes. Pretty much agreed though I think Sam/Mark is done reasonably well regardless all things considered.
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Apr 14, 2017 06:20
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