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tekkadan didn't kill a single seven stars member until iok at the very end, and that was completely his own fault (he'd been trying really hard to die since the mobile armor). mcgillis is the one that threw a wrench in everything and destroyed the seven stars system (even if the way he did it was completely unintentional); tekkadan were just his hired muscle. once the direct confrontation with gjallarhorn started, they lost every fight and were pushed back to their base on mars, where they were destroyed. they were used by other people without ever accomplishing their own goals
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Apr 10, 2017 04:03
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Wait, Carta doesn't count?
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Apr 10, 2017 04:05
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Tae posted:Wait, Carta doesn't count? I forgot they killed her tbh
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Apr 10, 2017 04:06
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Manatee Cannon posted:I forgot they killed her tbh How do you forget Mika brutally murdering soldiers while they were busy posing for great leader carta
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Apr 10, 2017 04:10
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I remember that but I forgot that she died from it I think it's because gaelio was so mad about it that I attributed it to mcgillis after the fact
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Apr 10, 2017 04:13
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I think it was one of the more creepy deaths because she's just calling out for mcgillis and Gally is just sitting there and having to pretend to be him so she can die in peace.
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Apr 10, 2017 04:16
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And now Macky's up there railing her in Gundam Valhalla. Really hosed up there's not Gundam Hel, IMO
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Apr 10, 2017 04:18
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ImpAtom posted:I'd say the opposite, the current ending is way too forced and happy for the rest of the show and the original ending makes more sense even if it isn't as crowd-pleasing. After thinking about it for a bit I would like the ending way more if 1) Kudelia got more screentime overall during the season and 2) at the end Kudelia contacts Rustal and convinces him to democratize Gjallarhorn. That way we get the same ending but it's actually the direct result of one of our protagonists rather than just happening and also Kudelia's arc had a point.
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Apr 10, 2017 04:26
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I'm still half expecting a weird 26th episode because Sunrise has done this before, and I am extremely annoyed right now because my only other show put a MONTH delay between the penultimate and final episode for no real reason.
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Apr 10, 2017 04:29
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:And now Macky's up there railing her in Gundam Valhalla. They're probably is. Other than Haman I don't remember seeing Gihren or any of the big baddies in gundam Valhalla.
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Apr 10, 2017 04:33
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Droyer posted:After thinking about it for a bit I would like the ending way more if 1) Kudelia got more screentime overall during the season and 2) at the end Kudelia contacts Rustal and convinces him to democratize Gjallarhorn. That way we get the same ending but it's actually the direct result of one of our protagonists rather than just happening and also Kudelia's arc had a point. Yeah, I'd be more okay with a happy ending if Kudelia remains as big a presence as she was in S1 but when she isn't it just fells ill-earned. I don't want a bloodbath ending for a bloodbath ending but more just it feels like... well, like the interview says, it's the result of not wanting an unhappy ending.
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Apr 10, 2017 04:41
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RottenK posted:on 4chan some people said that in some.. interview with a voice actor i think, it was said that Gaelio's voice actor had influence on the story because Okada is his fan or something like that, and he heavily pushed for a happy ending for his character Hell, in a bunch of shows, Daisuke Ono and Hiroshi Kamiya appear in roles that interact a ton with each other because A) They're best friends and B) They have a fairly popular Radio Show together. VA's influencing their works is nothing new. When Megumi Hayashibara got REALLY big in the 90's, if she was the lead / an important character of the show, it was a pretty safe thing to assume that she'd sing either an OP, an ED or both, similar to Nana Mizuki. ImpAtom posted:It's pretty likely. Gundam (and anime series in general) have a habit of making adjustments for popular voice actors. It's why Andy Wartfelt survived in SEED and why Jermiah became The Most Important Man In The World in Geass. WRT Tekkadan's final impact, at the end of the series, they became more of a mix of cautionary tale / boogeymen. Like, the general public may not give a single flying poo poo about them anymore or may see them as downright failures, but Kudelia, Old Man McMurdo and the Rustal/Gaelio/Julieta faction of G-Horn know what's up. I mean, despite being backed into a corner, these scrappy murderous kiddos still gave them a good what-for. poo poo, despite being almost dead after the And some of the ending might feel like an easy way out, but still makes some sense, at least in my opinion. If nothing else and without wanting to come off like a psycho, but for lasting less than 30 seconds, Iok's death has got to be one of the most satisfying moments in recent anime: An idiot who got in everyone's way finally serves some purpose. 
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Apr 10, 2017 05:06
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I don't have any real problems with the actual outcome of the ending as the events all make logical sense if you think about them, it's just that all of the important events happen offscreen due to time constraints which is the lovely part. Rustal looking at the shambles of the Seven Stars and what brought on this entire stupid war to begin with leading to him advocating major reforms as a way to ensure stability makes perfect sense, so loving show us that happening.
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Apr 10, 2017 05:16
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Yeah, an episode or two actually showing the non-action stuff happen would've been nice, like how in Macross the show kept going and showed us what happened after the fighting stopped.
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Apr 10, 2017 05:30
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Yeah: A full Episode for the epilogue / after-action report would've helped the show unpack much better, instead of the 10 minutes or so we got. I do remember that some shows that I own on DVD/BD often add a couple of minutes if not more of stuff that ends up getting cut so that the show makes it on air and still gives space for commercial breaks. I recall an Episode of the 1st season of Haruhi Suzumiya that instead of being 23 minutes was like 30 minutes long on DVD. Wonder if they did anything like that for this show. I know: Gundam shows are basically glorified commercials for Gunpla sets. Still, it'd be cool if they did something like that for the BD/DVD release.
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Apr 10, 2017 05:42
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Wark Say posted:Yeah: A full Episode for the epilogue / after-action report would've helped the show unpack much better, instead of the 10 minutes or so we got. I do remember that some shows that I own on DVD/BD often add a couple of minutes if not more of stuff that ends up getting cut so that the show makes it on air and still gives space for commercial breaks. I recall an Episode of the 1st season of Haruhi Suzumiya that instead of being 23 minutes was like 30 minutes long on DVD. Wonder if they did anything like that for this show. The only thing we've gotten like that in recent memory was SEED Destiny Final Plus.
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Apr 10, 2017 06:19
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IBO had a lot of jerks get satisfyingly smashed to paste and for that I enjoyed it. Still I gotta agree that having Almiria dropped completely was weird.
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Apr 10, 2017 06:56
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Kanos posted:I don't have any real problems with the actual outcome of the ending as the events all make logical sense if you think about them, it's just that all of the important events happen offscreen due to time constraints which is the lovely part. Rustal looking at the shambles of the Seven Stars and what brought on this entire stupid war to begin with leading to him advocating major reforms as a way to ensure stability makes perfect sense, so loving show us that happening. Yeah, this. With any luck we get some kind of side material covering the gap between Mika's death and the closing narration, because it's at least 5 years, if not 10, and the show definitely needs the world-altering events to not be compressed down to a 10 second voiceover.
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Apr 10, 2017 10:15
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Definitely agreed that the ending would have benefited from having more Kudelia doing stuff in the final episode(s), though on the whole I'm pretty down with it as presented. I'm sort of on the fence about Almiria -yeah, sure, some on screen acknowledgment and closure would have been nice, but on the flip side, every single time she was on screen was creepy as poo poo, so.
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Apr 10, 2017 10:22
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Psycho Landlord posted:Definitely agreed that the ending would have benefited from having more Kudelia doing stuff in the final episode(s), though on the whole I'm pretty down with it as presented. I idly wonder if her committing suicide onscreen was something that would've crossed a line with the show's TV rating and they'll push it into the DVD version.
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Apr 10, 2017 10:28
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all of the romance stuff in ibo is really weird
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Apr 10, 2017 10:42
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It really is and I feel it does a good job at showing how bad the world in IBO is. Tekkadan's kids have very few role models to follow. Hell, even Kudelia, despite coming from a well-off household, is sold out by her own father and goes through a few years of her life cut off from everything she once knew.
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Apr 10, 2017 10:47
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Tae posted:So this solidifies to never hire Okada again for any project Okada is probably the most prolific anime writer working today, she has a lot of misses but her hits are incredibly good and it would be a shame to lose her!!
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Apr 10, 2017 11:04
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I'm not sure why anyone would use IBO as a reason to never hire her again. Overall I'd say it was one of the best Gundam shows. I couldn't think of a single one I'd comfortably rate higher.
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Apr 10, 2017 11:18
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Srice posted:Okada is probably the most prolific anime writer working today, she has a lot of misses but her hits are incredibly good and it would be a shame to lose her!! You need to let the folks being chafed about IBO get it out of their systems, it's the only way to clear the air. I mean it's a ridiculous kind of knee-jerk reaction, if you ask me, but fans gonna fan.
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Apr 10, 2017 11:38
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genericnick posted:I'm not sure why anyone would use IBO as a reason to never hire her again. Overall I'd say it was one of the best Gundam shows. I couldn't think of a single one I'd comfortably rate higher. There's a few that are definitely better, but IBO is good.
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Apr 10, 2017 11:50
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Lemon-Lime posted:There's a few that are definitely better, but IBO is good. I like the first season of 00 a little better, just for running a "we're working to an unshown/seen plan" story that actually had a complete plan laid out. That and the various factions asking the real basic question of "how can we abuse their abilities to kill/capture them?" instead of merely being in awe of the fancy flying robots clowning their ace pilots.
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Apr 10, 2017 12:20
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Manatee Cannon posted:all of the romance stuff in ibo is really weird I think that that was deliberate, as part of one of the show's tricker, more complex themes - that marginalisation and abuse are degrading, not ennobling, creating a vicious cycle in which the marginalised are easier to vilify, but that this doesn't mean we should, or that who they are or what they do is valueless. I was very much reminded of Guy Gavriel Kay's Tigana, where the health of the characters' romantic and sexual relationships is closely tied to the health of the land itself. Most of the romance in IBO is profoundly strange and/or broken. Kudelia, Atra, and Mikazuki awkwardly navigate a three-way relationship that ends with the two women bound together forever by their love for a dead man. Nadi is in a relationship with a woman young enough to be his daughter. Dexter is heavily implied to be in a relationship with a woman old enough to be his mother. Naze sleeps with the employees he rescued from the streets. Akihiro and Lafter are unable to overcome their complex web of loyalties, or the crippling lack of self-esteem that makes it impossible for the big guy to imagine that someone might be romantically interested in him. Yamagi spends most of the show pining for a man so dense and out-of-touch with his and others' feelings that even when he knows the kid is in love with him, he still tries to motivate him by inviting him out to pick up girls. McGillis is so emotionally stunted that the person he forms his single deepest connection with is an eight-year-old girl. Despite all this, many of these characters draw happiness and strength from these bonds, and the show doesn't pretend that either of those are somehow false despite their peculiar, compromised sources. I think it's very telling that the closest thing to a traditional, storybook relationship between equals is between the two beloved heroes who end the show on the top of the heap, Gaelio and Julietta - even healthy romances are a privilege of the powerful. Relatedly, this is why I think that it was the perfect ending for the heroes to fail, die, and be vilified after shacking up with a madman in a desperate grab for power, but still cause enough damage and scare enough people for the powers that be to give them what they wanted posthumously and pretend that their efforts had nothing to do with it. Once you get past the questionable decision of making Imperial Japan the main allegory, IBO has some really intelligent things to say about the struggle of the marginalised to make their voices heard.
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Apr 10, 2017 12:33
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I like the first season of 00 a little better, just for running a "we're working to an unshown/seen plan" story that actually had a complete plan laid out. That and the various factions asking the real basic question of "how can we abuse their abilities to kill/capture them?" instead of merely being in awe of the fancy flying robots clowning their ace pilots. I don't yet know how well it holds up on a rewatch but for me it's really only Turn A that might make the cut. I never really bought into the 00 first season. I like the basic idea of the grand plan but there were a lot of things that muddled the water. Without the Thrones and whatever the season 1 badguy's name was I'd probably have enjoyed it more. At least conceptionally.
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Apr 10, 2017 15:38
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I think IBO is a very firmly mid-tier show. It's certainly not terrible but it is disappointing to me. The characters don't really develop much. Gaelio probably has the most coherent and strong arc in the show (ignoring the bullshit of his survival) with Julietta right behind but from there you have a lot of characters who basically are the same person from start to finish. I'd give Kudelia a spot on the list if not for Season 2. Characters absolutely respond to things but their responses rarely change how they do things. Anyone who has a big sudden shift usually dies so soon afterwards that the show never has to develop them. For a 50 episode series this really feels a lot like spinning their wheels. In a similar note a lot of the villains and bad guys in the show are entirely too one-note. They feel like cartoon characters (somewhat excessively in the case of Carta and Iok) and fall into the same notes of being cackling jerks. This wouldn't be a huge problem except on a reverse note the show feels afraid of making the protagonist's allies too morally grey. They ally with politicians and space mafia members but anyone who is actually on their side is bizarrely ethical for whatever their role is. A major part of this is Saint Naze Turbine, Hallowed Be His Name, but it's an ongoing thing where the show always foists the genuine betrayals off on Cackling Evil Man wherever possible. For a show about adults exploiting children it's surprisingly one-note about the exploitation. The mecha combat is inconsistent. It is at its strongest when it is showing the brutality of combat but the show descends a bit too much into "okay, this guy/lady survives because the plot says so" territory. On the flip side while its rare number of equal fights are great it relies way way too hard on the idea the protagonists are just better than anyone they face which tends to actually take impact out of fights. When the protagonists are deploying multiple Gundam units and top of the line mecha that might be standard for Gundam but it feels inappropriate for a show that so early tried to really emphasize the relative small scale of combat. I think the combat in S1 was a lot better despite there being less of it because it felt more impactful to me though "Mika is never actually really challenged ever" is a thing throughout the entire show. I also think the show just isn't willing to stick to a tone and feels inconsistent. Taken entirely on his role in the series Mika is a sad and tragic broken messed-up child soldier who eventually dies a tragic pathetic death realizing that he'd found what he was looking for amidst the crumbling remains of everything he built for himself. Yet sometimes the show seems like it wants to take his "I'm so hosed up Chirico Cuvie would tell me to tone it back" elements and play them as something good. Especially his relationship with Orga which is framed both narratively and visually as completely hosed up until they decide it isn't. Both S1 and S2's ending feel like they suffer from coming very close to the line where these themes work and then backpedaling furiously to avoid the impression of a massive tragedy. It isn't as cowardly as some Gundam shows but it also takes a way darker tone. Kudelia, as a whole, is one of the biggest wastes of a character I can think of. Which is a shame because I like Kudelia and I think she makes perfect sense for the setting. An idealistic and optimistic person who is forced through her relationships with child soldiers her own age to confront the hosed-up realities of the world and, rather than being broken by it, she becomes emboldened and brings about genuine change. It's a really strong core idea but after Season 1 she's just sidellined and it feels like she's treated as Mika's Bonus Girlfriend rather than a major important part of the setting. If Kudelia had been handled well I'd probably bump IBO up a few notches on my list even despite its other flaws. She's the biggest disappointment to me not in the least because i thought her arc in Season 1 was one of the absolute strongest parts and assumed Season 2 would continue making her a central focus. It's by no means a complete disaster and despite my criticism of the ending it does a better job of bringing things together than a lot of recent Gundam shows, but at the end of the day I feel like IBO keeps reaching for some really interesting ideas and then pulling back at the last second because either the writers or the studio don't want to risk something that really pisses people off and as a result the show never quite lives up to its full potential. Which is pretty bog standard Gundam Problems unfortunately and a lot of it can be blamed on "If we do this will Barbatos Seventh Form With Optional Laser Sight sell more poorly?!" stuff. I put it strictly in the midpoint of Gundam shows, though I think it's genuinely a better show than 00, or Age or Try or honestly most Gundam shows in the last decade as damning-with-faint-praise as that is.
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Apr 10, 2017 16:17
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I can't think of more than 6 show/ova/movies it's better than and I'm trying really hard.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:11
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ImpAtom posted:In a similar note a lot of the villains and bad guys in the show are entirely too one-note. They feel like cartoon characters (somewhat excessively in the case of Carta and Iok) and fall into the same notes of being cackling jerks. This wouldn't be a huge problem except on a reverse note the show feels afraid of making the protagonist's allies too morally grey. They ally with politicians and space mafia members but anyone who is actually on their side is bizarrely ethical for whatever their role is. A major part of this is Saint Naze Turbine, Hallowed Be His Name, but it's an ongoing thing where the show always foists the genuine betrayals off on Cackling Evil Man wherever possible. For a show about adults exploiting children it's surprisingly one-note about the exploitation. I don't think that's a fair slam against Carta and Iok, because that's the entire point of their characters. They are supposed to govern as members of the Seven Stars, but they are so up their own assholes with airs of nobility they truly believe that anything and everything they do is The Right Thing. Iok only survived for so long because his underlings were competent soldiers and not a harem of McGillis stand-ins who only existed to agree with Carta. She engaged them fully believing duels were how things were settled and it would go as she planned because she is Right. She was not right.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:25
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Still better than SEED, as well. Right now, my top 5 Gundam are:
00 has among the strongest 1st half/seasons, but it still has problems and the 2nd season just pales in comparison. Reconguista feels like they just wanted to throw Tomino a bone and while it has some good/strong choices, at the end of the show I kinda get a "That's it?" feeling out of it. Age can go gently caress itself in its entirety and so can SEED Destiny (Vanilla SEED had its points but at this point in time I'm sick of some of my Mecha-loving friends still preaching the gospel of Jesus Kira Yamato, father of Kirito, uncle to Tatsuya). Unicorn is OK and Build Fighters disappointed me with its second season. Also, gonna need more Sailor Mom 
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Apr 10, 2017 17:31
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I don't think that's a fair slam against Carta and Iok, because that's the entire point of their characters. They are supposed to govern as members of the Seven Stars, but they are so up their own assholes with airs of nobility they truly believe that anything and everything they do is The Right Thing. Iok only survived for so long because his underlings were competent soldiers and not a harem of McGillis stand-ins who only existed to agree with Carta. She engaged them fully believing duels were how things were settled and it would go as she planned because she is Right. I think the show goes too far in that. Carta is, of course, an inept person who got her role through her family name but they actually play it for comedy in a way I don't think is appropriate. She goes from being merely inept to being comically inept where comically is meant literally. That, combined with her design, makes her feel out of place in a way I don't think feels naturally. I don't mind the duel thing and I think it was entirely appropriate, I think mostly of the previous battle where it felt a bit too excessive. I think Gaelio is genuinely a better implantation of a pamper scion than Carta is. Basically I feel like the only time Carta really worked for me was the duel. That is the proper way to handle it. Someone going at Mika and thinking he's going to play fair and he doesn't and she dies a horrible awful depressing death because she doesn't understand war at all and there's no trace of comedy to it except in the blackest tones With Iok I think he suffers from the writers clearly enjoying leaning on him being lovely too much, so that when you reach the end and he gets crushed you're supposed to go "Haha, he FINALLY got his due" but in doing so they created someone who just felt a bit much. The fact that he does the "I charge forward ineptly and get owned" thing like two episodes in a row makes the second time it happens feel way more forced.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:44
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the charge against McGillis doesn't count because he knew that he'll get wrecked and did it on purpose because he didn't want to sacrifice his soldiers that's like, the one morally decent thing that Iok did in the whole show if he died there it'd be bad because he's still a giant piece of poo poo who doesn't deserves a sympathetic death
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Apr 10, 2017 17:50
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ImpAtom posted:I think the show goes too far in that. Carta is, of course, an inept person who got her role through her family name but they actually play it for comedy in a way I don't think is appropriate. She goes from being merely inept to being comically inept where comically is meant literally. That, combined with her design, makes her feel out of place in a way I don't think feels naturally. I don't mind the duel thing and I think it was entirely appropriate, I think mostly of the previous battle where it felt a bit too excessive. I think Gaelio is genuinely a better implantation of a pamper scion than Carta is. Basically I feel like the only time Carta really worked for me was the duel. That is the proper way to handle it. Someone going at Mika and thinking he's going to play fair and he doesn't and she dies a horrible awful depressing death because she doesn't understand war at all and there's no trace of comedy to it except in the blackest tones That's missing the joke slightly. The first time he does it, he's deliberately trying to get himself killed in order to atone for his sins and do something useful for once in his life, so of course he survives against the odds. The second time he does it, he's trying to secure what should be an extremely safe, easy kill, so of course he somehow manages to screw up and die. It's not repetition, it's mirroring.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:52
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Darth Walrus posted:That's missing the joke slightly. The first time he does it, he's deliberately trying to get himself killed in order to atone for his sins and do something useful for once in his life, so of course he survives against the odds. The second time he does it, he's trying to secure what should be an extremely safe, easy kill, so of course he somehow manages to screw up and die. It's not repetition, it's mirroring. I don't think it's an appropriate time or place for a joke or a character who it fits for. I think Patrick Colarsour was forced even in Gundam 00, let alone his crappier cousin in the episode about brutalized child soldiers dying miserable deaths.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:06
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I wasn't crazy about Iok's death either. He's shown to be so dumb and malleable, he will basically do anything as long as it fits his view of nobility. I wish Rustal had died, and it had been Iok who ended up implementing the reforms to Gjallarhorn.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:46
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Guy Goodbody posted:I wasn't crazy about Iok's death either. He's shown to be so dumb and malleable, he will basically do anything as long as it fits his view of nobility. I wish Rustal had died, and it had been Iok who ended up implementing the reforms to Gjallarhorn. This would go entirely against Iok's character in every way.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:14
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Tae posted:I can't think of more than 6 show/ova/movies it's better than and I'm trying really hard. Seed destiny, age, 0083, build fighters tri, Gundam x, f91. Could definitely go on and there are a ton that it is at least on more equal footing with.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:26
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