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skasion posted:The whole storm ruler thing is quite random and I suspect was put in there as a stopgap for a fight the designers didn't have time to flesh out the way they hoped. In the really early promotional material it showed Wolnir in Yhorm's room so I wonder if they were supposed to be one boss but then they didn't pan out so they just came up with what's in the game
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Apr 11, 2017 21:21
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Vermain posted:Again: if any other boss in the game had some example of you picking up a weapon/item or using an environmental effect to make the boss easier, that's fine, because then the developers have given the player an example of what could appear in the future and primed their thinking appropriately. DS1 does this nicely by forcing you to drop down onto Asylum Demon and then having you fight Taurus Demon next to a large drop that clever players can pick up on. If you hadn't had to drop down on Asylum Demon, would you have ever seriously considered climbing to the top of the tower and trying to fall down onto Taurus? I mean, you fight both the Greatwood and Wolnir before fighting Yhorm, which teaches the player that sometimes you can’t deal significant damage to a boss directly, and instead need to figure out special gimmicks to beating them. Yes, both of those teach the player that it’s more about hitting specific weak points, but it IS established that some bosses have more going on than just “avoid attacks, punch them” Also, DS1’s level design does more to encourage you to plunge attack Taurus Demon aside from just the Asylum Demon. The archers on the tower will plink away at you from behind before you actually trigger the fight, so you’ll turn around and go kill them, thus teaching you that there’s a place to use a plunging attack from. Would players have thought to do this if they hadn’t done it against the Asylum Demon? Dunno, maybe not. But I would suspect some players would at least go up there for breathing room, or to kill the archers if they triggered the boss fight without doing so first. Assuming the player knows plunging attacks exist, they’d probably think to try it in that situation.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:25
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CodfishCartographer posted:I mean, you fight both the Greatwood and Wolnir before fighting Yhorm, which teaches the player that sometimes you can’t deal significant damage to a boss directly, and instead need to figure out special gimmicks to beating them. Yes, both of those teach the player that it’s more about hitting specific weak points, but it IS established that some bosses have more going on than just “avoid attacks, punch them” Both of those bosses involve you hitting weak points, but they don't involve using different weapons than what you already have in your hands, nor do they require you to hunt around the arena for something to use against the boss. There's a significant difference between "this boss has specific weak points that you need to hit" and "you need to use an entirely different weapon that we've never told you about, tucked in the very back of the arena, behind the screen-consuming giant" in terms of logical trains of thought that the player can follow.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:31
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Vermain posted:Again: if any other boss in the game had some example of you picking up a weapon/item or using an environmental effect to make the boss easier, that's fine, because then the developers have given the player an example of what could appear in the future and primed their thinking appropriately. DS1 does this nicely by forcing you to drop down onto Asylum Demon and then having you fight Taurus Demon next to a large drop that clever players can pick up on. If you hadn't had to drop down on Asylum Demon, would you have ever seriously considered climbing to the top of the tower and trying to fall down onto Taurus? It's funny watching blind playthroughs and seeing the player character hover over Asylum Demon's head for a full second or something ridiculous as they're falling down. Like the devs are giving you a big glowing neon hint right there. And even then you don't really have to do it to win. Yhorm is a contrived and dumb fight. The devs were going for something with that fight and they failed spectacularly. The only redeeming feature is Siegward 
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Apr 11, 2017 21:31
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RoadCrewWorker posted:pro tip: wolnir also dies faster if you hit the glowing weak spots That was very obvious.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:40
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I think it's pretty obvious what you need to do to beat Yhorm, if you continue to try and whittle him down after seeing you do next to no damage then you're just an idiot. It's still a poorly designed fight, which is especially amusing since the fight it's calling back to, the Storm King, is so much better done. It's completely out of reach of your melee weapons for the entirety of the fight, and the arena is massive, littered with items, and has a number of places where you can take cover, which help intuit that there's some gimmick much more obviously. When you do eventually find the Storm Ruler it's name creates an immediate connection to the boss, and you get the special attack whenever you swing it, as opposed to DS3's version where you have to charge it up an inordinately long time and then swing. Not to mention that the Storm King is plenty doable with ranged attacks from a bow/magic, whereas Yhorm takes very little damage even if you strike his head. e: It's especially funny since if they just made Sieg's quest something that completes automatically (like he shows up at Yhorm no matter what and if you miss out on his earlier encounters you just don't get gestures or the slab) that would solve a lot of the issues immediately. He's clearly capable of harming Yhorm, you're not, you should act as bait. While doing that you may come across the other Storm Ruler and it becomes much more obvious what you need to do, and if Sieg falls you can pick up his, again knowing what you need to do. Genocyber fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 21:45
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While I do think that Yhorm isn’t as bad a fight as people seem to give it credit for (it’s leagues better than many other fights in the series), I do agree with you that it probably should have been done much better. I think the Storm King in Demon’s souls is much more obvious what you’re actually supposed to do, but I think overall Yhorm is a more fun fight. Storm King is kind of barely even a fight - you run away and hide from the billions of spears raining down on you, then when you get the sword you just spam attack until the boss and all the flying stingrays are dead. Yes, it’s a really great feeling when you’re completely powerless and sprinting from cover to cover to going to RENDING THE loving SKY  It’s a really cool and empowering moment, but after that it’s pretty much just standing still spamming R1.It’s easy to write off Storm Ruler in DS3 as DeS pandering (which it was) I think Yhorm was an attempt to actually make a “real” version of the fight.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:51
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I think a solution would be to just have the player be given some way to find out about Yhorm and the Storm Ruler before actually fighting him. Like finding out about Seath's immortality. Have Ludleth talk about him, he's the designated "here's what's up with the lords" guy. Just have someone gently nudge the player by saying he's got thick skin and your attacks will just plink off or something. You don't even need to tell the player about the Storm Ruler itself.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:53
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Storm King also gets closer to the arena the more rays you kill, and it's very possible to shoot them down with magic or arrows. That at least gives you the feeling that your actions are accomplishing something, and once all the rays are dead the Storm King is closer (and takes normal ranged damage if you'd rather just shoot it). Technically you can end-run around Yhorm similarly by hitting his head, but fewer builds are equipped for that and he's slightly harder to hit with bows than with sorcery which just destroys him. Wolnir is similar but can be defeated through his weak points.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:01
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good haul in ringed city today cannot believe how many worlds I invaded had seed of a giant's tree active, or popped them when I invaded CodfishCartographer posted:I’m kinda surprised poo poo like this happens, honestly. I would figure that at that point in the game, when you come up to a boss that you’re only plinking away at for like 30 damage, you figure that there’s something you’re probably missing in the fight. The only interesting thing in the area is the sword, and the description mentions that its weapon art is particularly useful against Giants. Sounds easy enough to put two and two together, but I guess if you just write it off as some random weapon, maybe not. Nakar posted:Wolnir is similar but can be defeated through his weak points.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:05
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Is the item not visible in the cut scene? If it was that would have been better. A really obviously glowing borb during the cut scene would have been a good clue.Lakbay posted:In the really early promotional material it showed Wolnir in Yhorm's room so I wonder if they were supposed to be one boss but then they didn't pan out so they just came up with what's in the game So Yhorm is actually the dark souls 2 guy who used the giant's souls to become swole
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Apr 11, 2017 22:12
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IronicDongz posted:good haul in ringed city today I always do in that area, because most of the invaders I've come across either 1. sit with an obscuring ring taking pot shots with a great bow or 2. As soon as you hit them twice they run out by the adjudicator.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:13
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if i have extra seeds to spare i usually just use them in hopes they start killing stuff for me.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:25
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:Is the item not visible in the cut scene? If it was that would have been better. A really obviously glowing borb during the cut scene would have been a good clue. I assumed he was a descendant of the Giant Lord you killed in the past, and they're just retconning the no-faced foreskin-headed DS2 giants to have faces.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:25
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The Profaned Capital is such a mess of backstory fragments and dropped threads that there's not much point in trying to suss out the truth behind it. Maybe they'll do a SotFS-style rerelease where they add another paragraph or two to explain what the gently caress that place's deal is.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:33
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skasion posted:The whole storm ruler thing is quite random and I suspect was put in there as a stopgap for a fight the designers didn't have time to flesh out the way they hoped. This is definitely the case, given how the entire Profaned Capital seems to be the least fleshed out area in the whole game. They didn't have time to make Yorhm a proper fight so they just made a gimmick and thought "eh, we'll just make it a Demon's Souls reference. Then people will like it!". And that really was enough for some people, but it just disappointed me. The reason this gimmick worked for Storm King is because it was completely out of your reach unless you used range attacks. It didn't feel like something you could fight normally. That and it cycles through attacks very slowly so you have plenty of time to explore the arena, find the storm ruler, and use it against its minions. This is a lot easier than picking up the storm ruler in Yorhm's fight, equipping it, and figuring out how to utilize it while getting smashed by a giant. Liquid Dinosaur posted:I assumed he was a descendant of the Giant Lord you killed in the past, and they're just retconning the no-faced foreskin-headed DS2 giants to have faces. Then why is the giant tree in Firelink Shrine still a gaping giant? I think that the DS2 giants are supposed to be the giant's equivalent of undead. The Londor Pilgrims in DS3 share the same design, and also share their fate of turning into tree...things...when they perish. Yorhm is a Lord of Cinder and effectively embered, so he retains a normal face. That DLC was a good opportunity to clear up some of the lore surrounding the Profaned Capital and Yorhm but From just said gently caress it and pretended it doesn't exist. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 22:33
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IronicDongz posted:How is Wolnir similar?
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Apr 11, 2017 22:35
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man when ds2 dropped i remember some folks writing huge walls of text trying to explain the lore of two types of giants, "no theyre not the same as the blacksmith" stuff. now every element of the series is up for that sort of malarkey
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Apr 11, 2017 22:40
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IronicDongz posted:who the gently caress does legion etiquette after 2v1ing an invader This is actually exactly what the Legion would do.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:44
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To the guy who thinks Gael is hard, get a Havels GS maxed out and 35+ END, he's fine. Facetanking with high stability and END got me through Gael easy and Midir ok-ish. Dunno how well that will work in NG+ though. IronicDongz posted:the funniest part abt invading is when there are 3-4 people vs. you by yourself and they're still too scared to actually make a move towards you I've had the same happen on the invading side, some Aldrich's faithful dude sits back and does dick when for once the invaders have an advantage. Goddamn I hate when that happens.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:47
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http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=903393890 yessssssss Such a good fight Internet Kraken posted:Then why is the giant tree in Firelink Shrine still a gaping giant? I think that the DS2 giants are supposed to be the giant's equivalent of undead. The Londor Pilgrims in DS3 share the same design, and also share their fate of turning into tree...things...when they perish. Yorhm is a Lord of Cinder and effectively embered, so he retains a normal face. That's a good theory. Since we don't see their faces and their skin is also rocky looking I think both types of giants are related. But we already went over that earlier in the thread about Gough's helmet's lore
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Apr 11, 2017 22:51
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It's hard to tell what artistic elements in Dark Souls lore are meant to provide clues to plot points rather than simply contribute to the creation of a mood, and I feel that might be part of the point. That said... what's up with the Murkmen effectively having the same face hole as the DS2 giants? EDIT: Also, dragon "descendants" barely ever looked anything like the original archdragons, so it's not really surprising that giant descendants might also look significantly different when compared to the original giants. A lot of that stuff operates on pretty flimsy, mythological logic. Fair Bear Maiden fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 22:59
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I never thought to drop attack Taurus. maybe I tried once and got killed on the ladder
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Apr 11, 2017 23:37
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First time doing the Ariandel DLC, get to Friede and Ariandel and just barely kill them on my first attempt. No flasks and maybe 100 hp left at the end. Hell yes! Very cool fight! ... 
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Apr 12, 2017 00:01
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So here's just a weird thing I've noticed about the ~lore community~ in general. People get really, really mad if someone presents a theory that mentions the whole "time is convoluted" thing in any way. But they're super eager to hop aboard the idea that you just travel in time willy-nilly throughout dark souls 3.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:04
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:Is the item not visible in the cut scene? If it was that would have been better. A really obviously glowing borb during the cut scene would have been a good clue. There's no cutscene if you don't follow Sieg's quest in which case you don't even really need to do much other than draw aggro. If there were a cutscene that focused on it then it definitely would have worked out better. Or if the sword were visibly sticking out of the ground, like the Storm Ruler in Demon's was. It's weird they've never actually done that in any games past DeS. Nuebot posted:So here's just a weird thing I've noticed about the ~lore community~ in general. People get really, really mad if someone presents a theory that mentions the whole "time is convoluted" thing in any way. But they're super eager to hop aboard the idea that you just travel in time willy-nilly throughout dark souls 3. People get mad about any lore thing that doesn't fit with their (read: Vaati's) interpretation of things. But with that in particular, I do find those theories to be kind of annoying because the time is convoluted is very much a hand-wavy thing you can use to justify pretty anything. Whereas the possibly temporal displacement of Firelink Shrine is implied by other things.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:19
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For each of the less hand-holdy situations - the wheel in Friede's pit of flies, basically every illusionary wall, Yhorms gimmick, a few hidden/optional areas - there were basically half a dozen player messages (in addition to the occasional dev message) more or less directly spelling it out (or at least making a crude joke about it). Even the last DLC's humanity puzzle had 3 vaguely helpful ones on the very first evening. Of course it's not a consistent resource, but it's something the game provides as a fallback for those "I would've NEVER found this" bone-headed moments. It's built into the game as much as upgrading your weapons or applying resins is. And that's assuming you explicitly avoid summoning other phantoms who could point out directions in person.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:35
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Genocyber posted:People get mad about any lore thing that doesn't fit with their (read: Vaati's) interpretation of things. But with that in particular, I do find those theories to be kind of annoying because the time is convoluted is very much a hand-wavy thing you can use to justify pretty anything. Whereas the possibly temporal displacement of Firelink Shrine is implied by other things. Yeah it is hand wavy, but "going through this hole in the wall literally takes you infinite years into the future-past, as does touching this weird egg" isn't much better. I've never actually seen someone try to explain either of those, because one an internet loreman decided that was the case everyone just accepts it as fact.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:37
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RoadCrewWorker posted:For each of the less hand-holdy situations - the wheel in Friede's pit of flies, basically every illusionary wall, Yhorms gimmick, a few hidden/optional areas - there were basically half a dozen player messages (in addition to the occasional dev message) more or less directly spelling it out (or at least making a crude joke about it). Even the last DLC's humanity puzzle had 3 vaguely helpful ones on the very first evening. This being said. I had no idea midir was a bigger encounter than the bridge because both times I was in the illusory wall room, no online messages were showing up for some reason. I had to read the walkthrough to figure out there was something in there.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:39
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I tried to explain the egg thing (wait hmm it looks like gael's chest) it's maintaining a barrier insulating the city from the world. When it breaks the ruin of the world comes flooding in. You don't travel in time, but break the illusion.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:41
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Vermain posted:I think Yhorm's a different kind of bad than Bed of Chaos. Bed of Chaos can randomly send you plummeting to your death or get you stuck in a million Firestorm pillars; it's always bullshit. Yhorm is only bullshit the first time you face him, because the game doesn't give you even a vague hint that there's a sword you're meant to kill him with at the other end of the arena (nor does it easily describe how you use it to kill him until you have some time to fumble around with the controls enough); after that, he's just dull. I agree with this. The Storm Ruler fight does several things to clearly lead you to the weapon you need to fight it; it starts you out in an open area with a long path clearly leading to a larger zone. You're being attacked regularly, so you have incentive to move and a clear target to move towards--down the path, and then towards the ruins. Now, it may take some meandering in the ruins to find the sword, but you're funneled there pretty naturally by the terrain, so it's just a matter of being dexterous enough to make it that far and not get shot to death. Yhorm's fight, meanwhile, is in an arena precisely like the Old Hero's, a totally different fight with a totally different gimmick. He spawns at one end, you at the other; there's no other places to go, you're in an enclosed arena. The spaces at the sides immediately suggest you want to go and hide behind a pillar, which is a useless strategy. There's nothing to really suggest for you to run all the way to the far end of the arena, and even if you do, you may not notice the item glow in the chaos of the fight. Even if you do find the item, its name doesn't immediately suggest it is a giant killer (but if you played Demon's Souls you know what is going on). Additionally, pulling off the move requires the player to press and hold a button, charge an attack, and then unleash it; in Demon Souls it took the place of your regular attack, thus when you equipped the weapon you could immediately see its benefit without needing to read the description, which spells it out for you. Yhorm is more aggressive than the mantas in DeS, and it's much more of a pain in the rear end to read the description on the weapon in the fight while also dodging his business. Dark Souls 3 simply does not communicate the same concept nearly as well; the gimmick is sound, but Yhorm was a bad fight to implement it in. If anything, that should have been a two-stage fight, with a melee duel that ends with him powering up and becoming invicincible, requiring you to flee to another arena and find the Storm Ruler there.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:43
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 OK you know what Champ Gundyr is probably the best boss battle in the entire series. It's just so unbelievably sublime it brings a tear to my eye DS3 has a whole bunch of really glaring problems and bullshit difficulty but that one battle is just perfect
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Apr 12, 2017 00:46
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I made the same mistake I did when AoA was released and didn't have a character ready to go. So now I'm playing through NG++ trying to get back to the Kiln of the First Flame so I can get to the Ringed City and probably get my rear end kicked by these bosses. I don't care what anyone says, one-hander+huge fuckoff shield is the way to play Dark Souls. Since I'm like SL140 now I've just pumped everything into Vitality and now I can wear armor and use a greatshield. Havel's is boring looking, but probably overall the best. The Moaning Greatshield is a lot lighter also for basically the same stats. Yhorm's Greatshield looks sick though.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:47
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:I tried to explain the egg thing (wait hmm it looks like gael's chest) it's maintaining a barrier insulating the city from the world. When it breaks the ruin of the world comes flooding in. You don't travel in time, but break the illusion.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:48
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:I tried to explain the egg thing (wait hmm it looks like gael's chest) it's maintaining a barrier insulating the city from the world. When it breaks the ruin of the world comes flooding in. You don't travel in time, but break the illusion. That's pretty much what I figured. It's like a dark anor londo situation. Also apparently the community manager guy over on reddit has played the new patch and said that giant seeds only last like a minute now?
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Apr 12, 2017 00:48
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If you use the moaning shield you get to disturb and confuse people when you play online.Nakar posted:Okay but why is Lothric Castle part of the Dreg Heap and then intact in the distance of the post-egg wasteland. I don't think any parts of the Dreg Heap are from Lothric Castle proper. They are all from the High Wall which is outside of it.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:49
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What is yall's favorite boss fight in Dark Souls (+ Bloodborne)? I think my favorites might be Artorias, the Burnt Ivory King, the Champion Gundyr, and Gehrmann.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:49
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Nakar posted:Okay but why is Lothric Castle part of the Dreg Heap and then intact in the distance of the post-egg wasteland. Based on the butresses, I'd thought that was Anor Londo in the horizon, not Lothric.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:51
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Bogart posted:What is yall's favorite boss fight in Dark Souls (+ Bloodborne)? I think my favorites might be Artorias, the Burnt Ivory King, the Champion Gundyr, and Gehrmann. From each game? Gael, Burnt Ivory King, Artorias, Allant and I never finished bloodborne.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:56
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Nuebot posted:Yeah it is hand wavy, but "going through this hole in the wall literally takes you infinite years into the future-past, as does touching this weird egg" isn't much better. I've never actually seen someone try to explain either of those, because one an internet loreman decided that was the case everyone just accepts it as fact. Walking through the doorway doesn't take you to the past. Everything outside of Firelink Shrine is in the past. That's why you have to warp to the High Wall, and why Firelink is separate from an otherwise contiguous world. What with the containing building being the same but everything else being ash and dust, it seems to convey that waking the princess hastened time.
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Apr 12, 2017 00:58
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